Joe Mauer a lot of little problems

[Big Dave2]

At no time was I ever bashing Joe Mauer. I am just trying to put into prospective what a star catcher really means to a team. He is no doubt a great hitter maybe the best in the league but you can't dispute the fact that he plays 15-20 games less than the average star offensive player. You can show me all the stats that are based on average that you want but I will always look at the bottom line to determine production. When Cuddyer can hit .274 and only be 30 total hits behind the batting champion, that does not show me a great value.

In a small market team there is not room for these huge salaries to begin with and when the huge salaried player doesn't play almost a months worth of games I don't see that as a high value for the money spent. I would rather see a high priced third baseman who plays every day and hits for power as well as average than a high priced catcher who can't help his team one day out of the week because he needs to be rested.

There is no doubt that Mauer's high salary will eventually handicap this team. Morneau will probably be in this salary range when his contract is up in a few years. The Twins are not the Yankees and this is not New York.

[JacobMHD]

It's not like the Twins didn't know prior to giving him the contract that he needed some days off.

[Big Dave2]

It's not like the Twins didn't know prior to giving him the contract that he needed some days off.

Of course they knew. That's the point.

[JBMasterAngler]

I like mauer, but for that money I would've rather seen the twins sign 2 really good pitchers for that amount (or less), and then be able to keep morneau down the road.

[Born2Fish]

Regardless of how many days he takes off, he is a VERY special player. You just do not see a catcher come around that often with the special offensive and defensive skills he has. He IS a homegrown talent. That alone, coupled with the fact he is an All-Star and former MVP and former batting champion, says a LOT for a guy who is not worth the money the Twins spent on him. ANY other team that was in the Twins same situation would also sit Mauer and let him rest. Right now it is NOT Mauers fault that the Twins are doing as bad as they are. Blame that on our pitching.

[JacobMHD]

Dmned if they do and dmned if they don't......

[Big Dave2]

Regardless of how many days he takes off, he is a VERY special player. You just do not see a catcher come around that often with the special offensive and defensive skills he has. He IS a homegrown talent. That alone, coupled with the fact he is an All-Star and former MVP and former batting champion, says a LOT for a guy who is not worth the money the Twins spent on him. ANY other team that was in the Twins same situation would also sit Mauer and let him rest. Right now it is NOT Mauers fault that the Twins are doing as bad as they are. Blame that on our pitching.

I am certainly not blaming Mauer for the teams struggles and I am not saying that the Twins are wrong to rest him that many days. I am just stating the fact that an all-star catcher does not help your team as much as an all-star at another position except pitcher.

I could care less if a guy is home-grown or not. Batting average doesn't tell the whole story about total production either.

[Big Dave2]

Dmned if they do and dmned if they don't......

This quote pretty much sums it up for the Twins.

[Big Dave2]

A.J. Pierxynski hit .300 last year and had only 39 less total hits than Mauer all for only 6.25 million. Now thats Value.

Sure Mauer had a better year than A.J. but think of the 3rd baseman or pitchers they could sign with the extra 17 million per year.

[Born2Fish]

How many

Quote:

high priced third baseman who plays every day and hits for power as well as average

are there out there that the Twins could of gotten?

[Born2Fish]

And IF there was one out there, who would of signed with the Twins? It's not like they attract any big name free agents. Like you said, the Twins are not the Yankees and the Yankees can throw around money like its going out of style.

[Coach1310]

A.J. Pierxynski hit .300 last year and had only 39 less total hits than Mauer all for only 6.25 million. Now thats Value.

Sure Mauer had a better year than A.J. but think of the 3rd baseman or pitchers they could sign with the extra 17 million per year.

You make 39 hits sound like nothing.... like all of those extra 39 hits were singles with 2 outs in an inning.... I would venture to guess that those 39 hits led to say 4 or 5 extra wins.... and since we had to play 163 I would say that those extra 39 were pretty important.

Also, there is little, if any guarantee that if they didn't spend the $$$ on Mauer, that they would have spent it on someone else. Mauer is a big time Special case.... ala Hrbek or Puckett

[jwmiller33]

A.J. Pierxynski hit .300 last year and had only 39 less total hits than Mauer all for only 6.25 million. Now thats Value.

Sure Mauer had a better year than A.J. but think of the 3rd baseman or pitchers they could sign with the extra 17 million per year.

Dave can you please name off one or two power hitting free agent thirdbasemen that would be so much more beneficial for the Twins to sign as a free agent rather than resigning Mauer? I agree the money could be spread around a lot different ways but I can guarantee you if the Twins would have let Mauer go into free agency, we never would have re signed him, and he would have a new house in New York or Boston and be making more than his Twins contract. I can guarantee you if the Twins DIDNT resign Mauer and let him sign with another team, you would see a thread in this forum TWICE as long as this one complaining about how the Twins never pony up and spend the money on our talent and how the Twins are just the MLB's "farm team". If we wouldn't have resigned Mauer, and he continued his career performing at this same level, 10 years down the road we would be hearing the same arguments we are still hearing to this day about David Ortiz. Woulda, coulda, shoulda. And now that we finally did, everyone is p*ssing and moaning about spending so much money. For any talk of Mauer's contract being so big that it could hinder the Twins' ability to maintain a quality roster around him it's important to note that their payroll has been in the $70 million range in recent years. Moving to Target Field has allowed them to push the payroll to around $100 million for 2010 and presumably the near future, in which case the $23 million devoted to Mauer will still leave more money to spend than they had in any previous season.

So please, Dave, would you give me a list of readily available free agent thirdbasemen that we could have signed this offseason that would be more beneficial to our team rather than resigning Mauer? Sure, it is easy for everyone to say they should have gotten a SP or they should have gotten a 3B, but no one throws out legitimate names that are actually free agents this off season that we would legitimately have the opportunity to sign.

[jwmiller33]

I could care less if a guy is home-grown or not. Batting average doesn't tell the whole story about total production either.

For a guy to "produce runs" it can't all be done himself. He can't bring in runners to score that aren't on base ahead of him. If guys aren't getting on base infront of him, you can't blame Mauer for not having the "run production" he should. It's a two way street, and everyone likes to put the blame on the guy making the most money. Mauer is still having a great year for a catcher and he is hitting TONS of live drives right into left fielders and shortstops, live drives that when things are going good, drop for extra base hits. Of course batting average doesn't tell the whole story of run production, but even looking at a guy's RBI total doesn't either, because you can be the best batter in the world, and your still not going to get any RBI's if no one is on base infront of you unless you hit bombs.

[jwmiller33]

A.J. Pierxynski hit .300 last year and had only 39 less total hits than Mauer all for only 6.25 million. Now thats Value.

Sure Mauer had a better year than A.J. but think of the 3rd baseman or pitchers they could sign with the extra 17 million per year.

Ya AJ might have hit 300 last year, but like you said, batting average doesn't tell the whole story. His slugging % was .425, whereas Mauers slugging % was .587. A difference of 162 pts in slugging percentage is HUUUUUUGE in terms of RUN PRODUCTION. I'll take Mauer's numbers over AJ's ANY DAY OF THE YEAR. Not to mention AJ had 49 RBIs last year compared to Mauers 96. Pretty much DOUBLE the run production. Dave, you can't dismiss batting average completely for one part of your argument and then come back and use AJs batting average as a counter argument to Mauer's overall value in another part of your argument. You have to look at more than just number of hits to derive a players true value

[Windy City Walleye Hunter]

We can swap catchers if you guys want to, I'm not sayin' I just sayin'.

[Big Dave2]

You make 39 hits sound like nothing.... like all of those extra 39 hits were singles with 2 outs in an inning.... I would venture to guess that those 39 hits led to say 4 or 5 extra wins.... and since we had to play 163 I would say that those extra 39 were pretty important.

Also, there is little, if any guarantee that if they didn't spend the $$$ on Mauer, that they would have spent it on someone else. Mauer is a big time Special case.... ala Hrbek or Puckett

I didn't say the 39 hits were nothing. I am saying that for an extra 39 hits its hardly worth paying 1 guy an extra 17 million. With that money you could have another REALLY good player or 2 or 3 decent players that will easily surpass 39 hits.

[Big Dave2]

Ya AJ might have hit 300 last year, but like you said, batting average doesn't tell the whole story. His slugging % was .425, whereas Mauers slugging % was .587. A difference of 162 pts in slugging percentage is HUUUUUUGE in terms of RUN PRODUCTION. I'll take Mauer's numbers over AJ's ANY DAY OF THE YEAR. Not to mention AJ had 49 RBIs last year compared to Mauers 96. Pretty much DOUBLE the run production. Dave, you can't dismiss batting average completely for one part of your argument and then come back and use AJs batting average as a counter argument to Mauer's overall value in another part of your argument. You have to look at more than just number of hits to derive a players true value

Number of hits is exactly what you should look at to determine true value. If a player only plays in 10 games and gets hurt but has a .500 average in those 10 games is he worth more than Mauer or Mornaeu? He would have only contributed about 20 hits of over-all production for the year. He may be a good hitter but there is no value there.

[Big Dave2]

For a guy to "produce runs" it can't all be done himself. He can't bring in runners to score that aren't on base ahead of him. If guys aren't getting on base infront of him, you can't blame Mauer for not having the "run production" he should. It's a two way street, and everyone likes to put the blame on the guy making the most money. Mauer is still having a great year for a catcher and he is hitting TONS of live drives right into left fielders and shortstops, live drives that when things are going good, drop for extra base hits. Of course batting average doesn't tell the whole story of run production, but even looking at a guy's RBI total doesn't either, because you can be the best batter in the world, and your still not going to get any RBI's if no one is on base infront of you unless you hit bombs.

I have maintained all along that Mauer is probably the best pure hitter in the game today. I am not talking about RBI or any other statistical AVERAGE. I am talking about the over all production numbers at years end. He's a great hitter but if he can't play a month worth of games each season he just can't help his tem as much as a different position player. It's just a fact.

[Big Dave2]

So please, Dave, would you give me a list of readily available free agent thirdbasemen that we could have signed this offseason that would be more beneficial to our team rather than resigning Mauer? Sure, it is easy for everyone to say they should have gotten a SP or they should have gotten a 3B, but no one throws out legitimate names that are actually free agents this off season that we would legitimately have the opportunity to sign.

I don't have a list of free agents yet because this season is not over. Mauer was locked up through this year at 12 million. I see 12 million being very good value for Mauer. We will see what free agents will be available this off-season.

[Born2Fish]

Quote:

2011 MLB Free Agents

By Tim Dierkes [september 21, 2009 at 11:00pm CST]

2011 MLB free agents - MLBTR's up-to-date list is below. These are players who are eligible for free agency after the 2010 season. The player's 2011 age is in parentheses and Scott Boras clients are bolded. Players on the current free agent list are not on this one. If you have any corrections or omissions, please contact us.

Updated 7-5-10

Catchers

Brad Ausmus (42) - mutual option for $1MM with a $150K buyout

Rod Barajas (35)

Josh Bard (33)

Henry Blanco (39)

John Buck (30)

Ramon Castro (35) - club option

Raul Chavez (38)

Toby Hall (35)

Ramon Hernandez (35) - option vests with 120 games played

Gerald Laird (31)

Jason LaRue (37)

Victor Martinez (32)

Chad Moeller (36)

Bengie Molina (36)

Jose Molina (36) - $1.2MM club option

Miguel Olivo (32) - $2.5MM club option with a $500K buyout

A.J. Pierzynski (34)

Mike Redmond (40)

Mike Rivera (34)

David Ross (34)

Yorvit Torrealba (32) - $3.5MM mutual option with a $500K buyout

Jason Varitek (39)

Gregg Zaun (40) - $2.25MM club option with a $250K buyout

First basemen

Garrett Atkins (31) - $8.5MM club option with a $500K buyout

Lance Berkman (35) - $15MM club option with a $2MM buyout

Wilson Betemit (29)

Hank Blalock (30)

Russell Branyan (35) - $5MM mutual option

Jorge Cantu (29)

Frank Catalanotto (37)

Adam Dunn (31)

Troy Glaus (34)

Wes Helms (35)

Eric Hinske (33)

Aubrey Huff (34)

Mike Jacobs (30)

Nick Johnson (32) - $5.5MM mutual option with a $250K buyout

Paul Konerko (35)

Adam LaRoche (31) - $7.5MM mutual option with a $1.5MM buyout

Derrek Lee (35)

Doug Mientkiewicz (37)

Kevin Millar (39)

Lyle Overbay (34)

Carlos Pena (33)

Albert Pujols (31) - $16MM club option with a $5MM buyout

Fernando Tatis (36)

Chad Tracy (31)

Ty Wigginton (33)

Second basemen

Ronnie Belliard (36)

Willie Bloomquist (33)

Alex Cora (35) - $2MM option vests with 80 games

Craig Counsell (40)

David Eckstein (36)

Mark Ellis (34) - $6MM club option with a $500K buyout

Orlando Hudson (33)

Omar Infante (29) - $2.5MM club option with a $250K buyout

Akinori Iwamura (32)

Adam Kennedy (35) - $2MM club option

Felipe Lopez (31)

Julio Lugo (35)

Kaz Matsui (35)

Aaron Miles (34)

Nick Punto (33) - $5MM club option with a $500K buyout

Juan Uribe (31)

Ramon Vazquez (34)

Shortstops

Alfredo Amezaga (33)

Orlando Cabrera (36) - $4MM mutual option with a $500K-$1MM buyout

Juan Castro (39)

Alex Cora (35) - $2MM option vests with 80 games

Craig Counsell (40)

Bobby Crosby (31)

Adam Everett (34)

Alex Gonzalez (33) - $2.5MM club option

Khalil Greene (31)

Cristian Guzman (33)

Jerry Hairston Jr. (35)

Cesar Izturis (31)

Derek Jeter (37)

Julio Lugo (35)

Jhonny Peralta (29) - $7MM club option with a $250K buyout

Nick Punto (33) - $5MM club option with a $500K buyout

Edgar Renteria (35) - $10.5MM club option with a $500K buyout

Jose Reyes (28) - $11MM club option with a $500K buyout

Miguel Tejada (37)

Juan Uribe (31)

Omar Vizquel (44)

Third basemen

Garrett Atkins (31) - $8.5MM club option with a $500K buyout

Adrian Beltre (32) - $5MM player option with a $1MM buyout. Option reaches $10MM with 640 PAs in 2010.

Wilson Betemit (29)

Geoff Blum (38) - $1.65MM mutual option

Jorge Cantu (29)

Eric Chavez (33) - $12.5MM club option with a $3MM buyout

Craig Counsell (40)

Pedro Feliz (36)

Jerry Hairston Jr. (35)

Bill Hall (31) - $9.25MM club option with a $500K buyout

Wes Helms (35)

Brandon Inge (34)

Mike Lowell (37)

Melvin Mora (39)

Jhonny Peralta (29) - $7MM club option with a $250K buyout

Robb Quinlan (34)

Aramis Ramirez (33) - $14.6MM player option

Miguel Tejada (37)

Juan Uribe (31)

Ramon Vazquez (34)

Ty Wigginton (33)

Left fielders

Garret Anderson (39)

Carl Crawford (29)

Johnny Damon (37)

David DeJesus (31) - $6MM club option with a $500K buyout

Jonny Gomes (30)

Jerry Hairston Jr. (35)

Willie Harris (33)

Reed Johnson (34)

Jacque Jones (36)

Jason Kubel (29) - $5.25MM club option with a $350K buyout

Jason Michaels (35)

Manny Ramirez (39)

Fernando Tatis (36)

Marcus Thames (34)

Randy Winn (37)

Center fielders

Alfredo Amezaga (33)

Rick Ankiel (31) - $6MM mutual option with a $500K buyout

Willie Bloomquist (33)

Endy Chavez (33)

Coco Crisp (31) - $5.75MM option with a $575K buyout

Jim Edmonds (41)

Jody Gerut (33)

Jerry Hairston Jr. (35)

Willie Harris (33)

Reed Johnson (34)

Andruw Jones (34)

Mark Kotsay (35)

Jason Michaels (35)

Corey Patterson (31)

Scott Podsednik (35) - $2MM club option with a $100K buyout, can be voided with 525 PAs

Willy Taveras (29)

Right fielders

Willie Bloomquist (33)

Gabe Gross (31)

Jose Guillen (35)

Brad Hawpe (32) - $10MM club option with a $500K buyout

Eric Hinske (33)

Gabe Kapler (35)

Austin Kearns (31)

Xavier Nady (32)

Magglio Ordonez (37) - $15MM club option vests with 135 starts or 540 plate appearances in 2010

Jayson Werth (32)

Randy Winn (37)

Designated hitters

Hank Blalock (30)

Pat Burrell (34)

Jason Giambi (40)

Vladimir Guerrero (36) - $9MM mutual option with possible $1MM buyout

Aubrey Huff (34)

Jason Kubel (29) - $5.25MM club option with a $350K buyout

Hideki Matsui (37)

David Ortiz (35) - $12.5MM club option

Matt Stairs (43)

Mike Sweeney (37)

Jim Thome (40)

Starting pitchers

Bronson Arroyo (34) - $11MM club option with a $2MM buyout

Erik Bedard (32) - $8MM mutual option

Kris Benson (35)

Jeremy Bonderman (28)

Dave Bush (31)

Jose Contreras (39)

Kevin Correia (30)

Doug Davis (35) - $6.5MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout

Jorge De La Rosa (30)

Justin Duchscherer (33)

Shawn Estes (38)

Josh Fogg (34)

Jeff Francis (29) - $7MM club option

Freddy Garcia (35)

Jon Garland (31) - $6.75MM mutual option with a $600K buyout

Chad Gaudin (28)

Rich Harden (29) - $11MM mutual option with $1MM buyout

Aaron Harang (33) - $12.75MM club option with a $2MM buyout

Livan Hernandez (36)

Jason Jennings (32)

Hiroki Kuroda (36)

Cliff Lee (32)

Ted Lilly (35)

Rodrigo Lopez (35)

Kevin Millwood (36)

Sergio Mitre (30)

Brian Moehler (39)

Jamie Moyer (48)

Brett Myers (30) - $8MM mutual option with a $2MM buyout

Vicente Padilla (33)

Carl Pavano (35)

Brad Penny (33)

Andy Pettitte (39)

Tim Redding (33)

Nate Robertson (33)

Ben Sheets (32)

Jeff Suppan (36) - $12.75MM club option with a $2MM buyout

Brett Tomko (38)

Koji Uehara (36)

Javier Vazquez (34)

Brandon Webb (32)

Todd Wellemeyer (32)

Kip Wells (34)

Jake Westbrook (33)

Dontrelle Willis (29)

Chris Young (32) - $8.5MM club option

Closers

Octavio Dotel (37) - $4.5MM club option with a $500K buyout

Frank Francisco (31)

Jason Frasor (33)

Brian Fuentes (35) - $9MM option vests with 55 games finished in 2010

Kevin Gregg (33) - $4.5MM club option for '11, $8.75MM for '11-'12

Trevor Hoffman (43) - mutual option worth $7-8.5MM; buyout at $500K-1MM

Chad Qualls (32)

Mariano Rivera (41)

Rafael Soriano (31)

Billy Wagner (39) - $6.5MM option vests with 50 games finished

Kerry Wood (34) - $11MM club option, vests with 55 games finished in 2010

Right-handed relievers

Luis Ayala (33)

Grant Balfour (33)

Miguel Batista (40)

Joaquin Benoit (33)

Kiko Calero (36)

Jesus Colome (33)

Jose Contreras (39)

Jesse Crain (29)

Juan Cruz (30) - $4MM club option with a $500K buyout

Brendan Donnelly (39)

Chad Durbin (33)

Kelvim Escobar (34)

Kyle Farnsworth (35) - $5.25MM club option with a $500K buyout

Josh Fogg (34)

Matt Guerrier (32)

Aaron Heilman (32)

Matt Herges (41)

Bob Howry (37) - $3MM club option with a $250K buyout

Mike Lincoln (36)

Mike MacDougal (34)

Seth McClung (30)

Justin Miller (33)

Guillermo Mota (37)

Chan Ho Park (38)

J.J. Putz (34)

Jon Rauch (32)

Juan Rincon (32)

David Riske (34) - $4.75MM club option with a $250K buyout

Takashi Saito (41)

Scot Shields (35)

Justin Speier (37)

Claudio Vargas (33)

Tyler Walker (35)

Jeff Weaver (34)

Dan Wheeler (33) - $4MM club option with a $1MM buyout

Jamey Wright (36)

Left-handed relievers

Joe Beimel (34)

Bruce Chen (34)

Randy Choate (35)

Scott Downs (35)

Alan Embree (41)

Pedro Feliciano (34)

Mark Hendrickson (37)

Ron Mahay (40)

Trever Miller (38) - $2MM option vests with 45 games in 2010

Will Ohman (32)

Darren Oliver (40) - $3.25MM club option with a $500K buyout, vests with 59 appearances

Horacio Ramirez (31)

Dennys Reyes (34)

Arthur Rhodes (41)

J.C. Romero (35) - $4.5MM club option with a $250K buyout

Scott Schoeneweis (37)

Bobby Seay (33)

Brian Shouse (42)

Jack Taschner (33)

Matt Thornton (34) - $3MM club option with a $250K buyout

[thatoneguy]

Quote:

Number of hits is exactly what you should look at to determine true value.

That's a terribly myopic way of looking at it. The number of hits tells you nothing other than the number of hits. It doesn't account for walks, it doesn't account for extra-base hits or runs produced, it doesn't look at how the player performed with runners on base...you get the idea.

Dave also doesn't seem to understand the concept of positional scarcity - i.e. that a catcher who is elite both offensively and defensively is FAR more rare (and therefore more valuable) that a 1B or RF who can rake. Also also missing is the pretty basic fact that catchers don't play 162 games. Ever. OF COURSE Mauer is going to play fewer games than Miggy Cabrera or somebody like that - those guys don't take six fouls tips off the shoulder every night or have to crouch for hours at a time.

[B. Amish]

I have maintained all along that Mauer is probably the best pure hitter in the game today. I am not talking about RBI or any other statistical AVERAGE. I am talking about the over all production numbers at years end. He's a great hitter but if he can't play a month worth of games each season he just can't help his tem as much as a different position player. It's just a fact.

huh

[jwmiller33]

Number of hits is exactly what you should look at to determine true value.

hahahah.. i rest my case

[Big Dave2]

That's a terribly myopic way of looking at it. The number of hits tells you nothing other than the number of hits. It doesn't account for walks, it doesn't account for extra-base hits or runs produced, it doesn't look at how the player performed with runners on base...you get the idea.

But it is a much better indicator of over all production than any average. Like I said before, a guy could play 10 games and go .500 in those 10 games. He could be the best baseball player of all time but he does not help you sitting on the bench for the other 152 games.