dnr deer management (or lack there of)

[ricqik]

Tyler, you're missing the point. Seems what you consider a buck is to have antlers. But a buck doesn't have to have antlers, as long as it's a male deer, that includes buck fawn, regardless if it has antlers or knobs. Half of all buck fawns I've seen ,you can't even tell it's a male until you're almost on top of it. I can only hunt public land like Carlos as one of them, WMA like carlos has way more hunting pressure than any private property, from what I've seen since I started bowhunting there, I can honeslty say the buck to doe is 1:4. It doesn't need to have antlers to be a buck, it just have to me a MALE deer. You may be able to id bucks with antlers indivually by antler characteristic but how do you know you aren't seeing the same doe's over and over again, how do you know all fawns are females. Doe's don't have features that can be easily id'd like an antlered buck. Doe's with fawns move around more because they need to lead their fawns to find food, so they're more likely to be seen. Antlered bucks don't have to do anything but for themselves, eat, sleep and breed, they're less likley to be seen and we all know that almost all good sized bucks are nocturnal. Even management ranchs and such that manange for a quality 1:2 or 1:3 don't count buck fawns, in reality, they have an almost 1:1 ratio when you look at it by male:female instead of antlered deer:a bald head. The buck to doe ratio is not wacked like what people make it out to be, it's alot better than you think even on highly pressured Carlos.

[ricqik]

Carlos's got about 25 per square mile, almost all being nocturnal due to high hunting pressure.

[Red Miller]

I just checked and for 2007 here is a map showing densities using one model. Looks like 11 to 30 per square mile for most of the north central part of the state with 1 t 10 in the far southwest and northwest. (not sure Im buying the 40+ blocks on the map) Carlos is blocked at 11 to 20.

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/outdoor_activities/hunting/deer/deer_density_prefawn_2007.pdf

One thing I noticed is that 247 (my area) is 20 to 30 and its lotto. Carlos is 11 to 20 and its managed ?!?!? huh?

[ricqik]

There's more than 20 deer per square miles on Carlos. The dnr get's there data based off of hunter harvested deer and they project the population. It's close enough, give or take.

[Red Miller]

Just curious where you get that data. I hunt Carlos and the most Ive ever seen at once was 2.

[Powerstroke]

Carlos gets hunted from the small game opener all the way up til deer hunting. The reason you never see more than 2 is because by November those deer have become experts at avoiding bowhunters, duck, squirrel, rabbit, pheasant and dove hunters and their loud guns. By the time the deer hunters get there they are behind the 8-ball.

It comes down to population density, habitat and food density and of course the acceptance of deer. Areas with a ton of food source and a ton of cover can hold more deer. Areas with lots of water, housing density, swamp, dense cropland, etc cannot support as many deer. They don't have enough of all the things deer need.

You can find the DNR's deer density map right on their deer hunting page. You can also find harvest statistics and see what they see. You can find out how many square miles the hunting area is, how many deer were taken and how many bucks and antlerless were taken. DO a little math or grab the calculator and you can get some neat numbers.

With the management hunts that I participate in the metro, they aim for 20-25 deer per sq. mile. A square mile is 640 acres or a section. That's 1.5 deer per 40acres. Seems pretty low doesn't it? Its not though because we all know that deer prefer certain habitat and they concentrate there. It is a game of numbers.

Last year my group of 5 guys hunted on less than 10 acres in the west metro for a management hunt. We took 11 deer from that area. That was an amazing deer density.

Some guys can take 10 deer of of 80 acres and the guy next door sees none. Who's fault is it? Either the hunter next door doens't try very hard, or maybe he has poor habitat. Guess which one of them is going to go to the DNR's input meetings?

[fishinmajishin]

I just checked and for 2007 here is a map showing densities using one model. Looks like 11 to 30 per square mile for most of the north central part of the state with 1 t 10 in the far southwest and northwest. (not sure Im buying the 40+ blocks on the map) Carlos is blocked at 11 to 20.

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/outdoor_activities/hunting/deer/deer_density_prefawn_2007.pdf

One thing I noticed is that 247 (my area) is 20 to 30 and its lotto. Carlos is 11 to 20 and its managed ?!?!? huh?

My area shows 40+. To the best of my knowledge I'd say closer to 50 in my exact surrounding square mile. They are thick.

[goblueM]

Exactly, Powerstroke

I feel like there are ALWAYS people complaining they didn't seen enough deer or enough big bucks. A lotta people that I know who do this are not very good hunters. I think a lot of what factors in to how many deer they see is luck. Which accounts for wild swings in "how many deer" are where they hunt.

I'm also really tired about the sense of entitlement that people have in complaining that the DNR "mis-managed" 'their' area. The DNR regulates things statewide, they don't pick and choose a section here or an acre here or that plot over there to hand-tune the regs for every individual hunter. Grow up people, put in some more work for your deer, and just go out and enjoy yourself! Be glad the Minnesota DNR is as good as it is, and that deer pops are as high as they are

[ricqik]

I have no solid data to prove other than just by personal sightings. Before the season starts(late summer), go out the last few hrs of light, place your stand on a heavily used incoming deer trail to a cornfield, sit and wait till an hr after dark and just watch and count. They start to filter in from all directions. I have counted at one time 38 deers that came within sightof my stand. And then the last 2 weeks before archery season, you get folks scouting everywhere, most of the deer turn nocturnal after that. It's no wonder people so few deer.

[Red Miller]

Powerstroke, your points are all valid. Sure there are problem areas in the metro where the deer are stacked up like cord wood. Thats why there are management hunts. They cant kill them fast enough because there is no hunting pressure and no place to hunt. They run through people's back yards eating their flowers.

Up north I hunt on public land that is pressured of course. Sure they all go nocturnal after being chased around the woods since Sept.15th but during the rut, you can throw that out the window. Those bucks will go anywhere anytime to get the one thing they need and we all know what that is.

I hunted around McGregor a few years. One fall during scouting, we saw so many bucks in velvet just driving around. One night we must have seen 200 deer on one field. Later during rifle, one of the locals had his army up there. We counted 17 bucks hanging just in their camp...all nice ones. 8's, 10's and 12's. All the bucks we saw during scouting.

The next year there were none. I am not the best hunter in the woods but I see deer...shootable deer most years during rifle. But some years I come home empty handed. Im not complaining. Thats part of hunting public land. Its real hunting. Sure I could stick one off my deck where I live but thats not hunting. Thats just killing.

By the way, I wouldnt recommend going into Carlos during firearms season. There are some real goof balls running around in there and they're armed!

[Tyler D]

Responding to some of the other posts, I do not have a sense of entitlement I hunt hard an know the land that I hunt on, I spend probably 35 ish days a year hunting deer. We are definatley seeing the effects of QDM on our place as we have several large deer on the trail cams, but I know it could be better.

I know that button bucks are bucks but I am talking antlered deer, what percentage of 1 1/2 year old bucks survive their first season? I dont know that answer but I know a lot get shot. The thing I get annoyed with is when I hear people telling me we went 8 for 8 on bucks, then they show me the picture and every one of them is a yearling buck, that annoys me greatly but that is their right. All I was saying is that it seems odd that it dropped from 5 deer to applying for doe permits, it leaves people with little choice but to shoot the first small buck that comes by.

I will hunt the 9 day rifle season and probably not fill my tag, and I am perfectly ok with that others dont enjoy putting in that kind of time. Truthfully people are going to have to decide to practice quality deer management and I believe it will come with time. And if not well thats peoples choice but it would be nice for people to be able to shoot a doe just take some pressure off of young bucks at such a vulnerable time.

Otherwise I applaud the DNR for the job they do.

[Odonata]

By the way, I wouldnt recommend going into Carlos during firearms season. There are some real goof balls running around in there and they're armed!

This is off topic, but I second that!

[subzero]

Reading most of the post about QDM it seems that people went out and bought 40 acres and because giant bucks aren't behind every tree it is there neighbors fault for shooting young deer. How many deer live on 40 acres, how many bucks are in that amount, how many hunters are on it? QDM is something that would not work on 40,60,80 acres. If every buck was allowed to live to 5 years old there would still be very few that would make the BC book. To support that look to Texas where they have been managing deer for many years on private ranches and more land than any 5 states from the lower 50. What is a good buck to take? Above post states 8 young bucks is annoying but would it be better if they took 8 monsters and you still saw only young bucks. What is the right size to take? 130 class,140 class, 180 class My point is there are few area's that will grow BC type deer and there are fewer hunters with the knowledge to succcessfully hunt them.

[lichen fox]

Red, In the area our party and neighboring party's hunt there are alot of deer but pressure is spread out...the "party" of 40+ that I spoke of was over the course of 3 seasons...the biggest number they have at any one time is during the firearms season and they probably average about 20-25 hunters for the 9 day season...the "party" is made up of approxamately 30% local land owners/ farmers and I'd say they problably hunt about 40 - 50 square miles, but not necessarily exclusively...Our party averages about 15 hunters in the firearms season and we hunt about 7 - 8 square miles but only about 2 of those square miles do we own ourselves and have exculsive rights on...

[deerminator]

I will also say this. How do you know the big bucks aren't there? Because you haven't seen them? Well, that's why they're big bucks, because they're experts at not being seen or not being seen long enough or in range to be taken out. I read a good article recently in a hunting mag where the author had a disease strike the local deer herd and the number of nice and 10 point and up bucks they found that winter was unbelievable. And the whole time, he'd been complaining there were no big bucks.

Turns out they were there the whole time. He just wasn't hunting the right spots or able to be in stand at the right times or as long as he should have been.

He also talked about something I've experienced, getting a lot of doe pics on trail cams and rarely any bucks. Same idea. The bucks were not with the does yet or using the same trails, so don't expect them to be using those trails or on camera.

Where I'm at, I catch fleeting glimpses of bucks heading into the corn during the day on occassion. I can't hunt the land they enter it from. But I know they're there, I just can't hunt them until late October or early November til the corn comes down and they start showing themselves on our property. And even then, the big bucks will probably only give you one chance, if you line everything up right.

I haven't been successful yet on a big buck in my 3 years bowhunting, but its not because I am or anyone is a bad bowhunter. It's a matter of big bucks being hard to kill. Those that get them consistently have a combination of the right land, skill, timing, time spent in field, etc.

Point being, more big bucks running around won't guarentee you're going to get one. They just don't run out in front of your stand to get taken. And again, not seeing them doesn't mean they're not there.

[Eskimoman]

Well said.

[kobear]

I'm in one of the 40+ per square mile areas and they are there. Those counts are pre-fawning too so after fawn drop there is closer to 60+ per square mile. Lot's of groups that take 30+ deer yearly off 600-800 acres. An observation I've made is groups that shoot lot's of deer (10's) often don't get alot of really nice bucks, seems like they are moving around, making noise, gutting deer, "no worries there's 60 per square mile" attitude. Those old bucks learn fast and shooting 30 comrades gives them alot of opportunities. Since I added new stands I've seen alot more deer. Some that are coming out and watching the old stands before they commit, they aren't stupid.

[Tyler D]

Subzero-

The only problem with you argument about the area not being able to grow B&C bucks is that it is wrong. Camp ripley is a prime example of that. Many large bucks come out of there every year.

Anyways the point is that many people hunt for meat and i think that is great. Not having a doe permit forces the meat hunter to shoot a young buck which prevents that deer from growing a little older and getting a little larger. With a management tag in the mix there is an opportunity to get some meat and still let some bucks go. I dont know that shooting 8 bucks of any age class in one year is a good management practice but by taking out those 8 yearlings you have kind of ruined your chances for some nice ones in the future.

On our small chunk of land which is an 80 acre piece the new neighbors took over 320 acres that hadnt been hunted in 10 years, I went from regularly seeing bucks of all age classes, where in full rut I could easily see 15 or so different bucks in one day to seeing a few small bucks in an entire season. I think its great that those guys get their deer but by shooting all those immature bucks the intensity of the rut went to nothing. After those early years of seeing bucks fighting, 2 or 3 different bucks at once chasing a doe in circles around your stand bucks running around at all hours of the day to seeing 1 or 2 in a day it isnt that exciting anymore, and as a result i pretty muched stopped hunting that piece and spend all my time on our larger section.

QDM isnt about shooting a B&C buck every year, it is about managing to a well balanced herd with a more intense rut, while still getting some meat for the table by tagging a couple of does and having the chance at tagging a monster which always adds a little excitement to the hunt.

[BigGills]

Alright

Rule #1 - Do NOT shot immature bucks, PERIOD!

Rule #2 - Earn a buck - Get on Board!

Rule #3 - Move the Gun Hunting Season off of the Rut (Learn from our neibors to the South. There's a reason why Iowa has become one of the most sought after places to hunt Whitetails and tags are so hard to get).

Rule #4 - Teach young hunters the significants of these rules.

Hunters that don't agree with ANY of this are lazy and are apart of the problem (sorry but its the truth). Good luck to all this Hunting Season and be safe.

[Red Miller]

Fox, thanks for getting back. That puts things in a little different perspective.

Gills, I agree with your rules but if this were an ideal world we'd all be millionaires too. Sure if you own a half section thats great. If we all had 30 or 40 days a year to spend afield scouting, tracking, hunting...awesome! But thats not always the case. What about the guys (and gals, sorry) who get 9 days a year, we dont own land and are in competition the next vehicle that pulls in. Spend average $500 to $1000 just to get the show on the road. We are now lucky to pull a antlerless permit and have a average success rate of 30%. Thats one deer every 3 years. You're telling me that I should let that nub or spike walk by on opener when theres a good chance that it will the only deer I see for the season? I guess in your world I may as well sell the weapons and stay home a watch football.

Im not trying to be [PoorWordUsage] here but there are 500,000 hunters out there every year and that spells big $ for the DNR. Thats great, they need it. Not to mention the propagation of a great tradition. I would simply suggest a slightly more accomodating attitude.

[subzero]

Camp Ripley is a great place to hunt, I have hunted there many times. Still with all the big bucks there, there are very few if any that make the BC book. My point is that there has to be genetics, age and minerals for bucks to grow antlers that are BC size.There are very few places with that combination and hunter should not expect that on every 40 acres out there. In a state where the average hunter gets one deer every 3 years, that is either sex deer, to have someone tell them they are lazy because they don;t have either the time or the knowledge to only shoot big bucks is pretty self serving. When did we change from deer hunting to doe and big buck hunting? If every year you only shot a buck that was bigger than the last one you shot, how many bucks would you be able to shoot in a lifetime?

[96trigger]

Quote:

Not having a doe permit forces the meat hunter to shoot a young buck which prevents that deer from growing a little older and getting a little larger. With a management tag in the mix there is an opportunity to get some meat and still let some bucks go.

The reason the DNR has the bucks only tag is to help increase the population. The state needs to increase the deer population in some areas first. Your right, it won't do anything to help the big buck population, but if the herd population is low, there is only going to be one mature buck in a large area anyway. So what, one guy out of 200 is going to get a crack at it? Who's happy now. I think the DNR bases its management on population, which I think it should. The hunters can manage their individual land as they see fit. We don't need the DNR to tell us we have to earn a buck. I would rather see antler restrictions way before earn a buck. Nothing good is going to come out of earning a buck except a dessimated population and some unhappy hunters. You think its great now, wait until that buck of a lifetime walks in front of you and you haven't "earned" him yet. Who's going to cry then, or are you just going to shoot it anyway? Pretty crappy decision to have to make.

Not too long ago, SEMN was lottery. We were lucky to get drawn for a doe permit, now its intensive harvest and we have nice bucks. We need to remember that Minnesota is huge and variable. Its tough to manage something this big. Let the DNR do what it does, but nothing is going to happen over night. Heck, it takes 4 years to make a big buck, and many of you sound like you want to see one right now. Not gonna happen unless YOU do something to go out and find them, or change your attitude about how you hunt as an individual. The DNR shouldn't have to do it for you.

[MinDak Hunter]

I love this time of year! The cold weather and shorter days trigger a change in the animals; all the accountants, machinists, carpenters, and other professions... turn into wildlife managers.

Gills- I agree with the firearms hunting during the rut but wouldn't it be fairer to the hunters of Minnesota if NO HUNTING were allowed during the rut?

I know the archers will say that they only take a small number of animals but this would level the playing field for all hunters. We could have a rule of no deer hunting from the 3rd weekend of Oct through the 3rd weekend of Nov. That would allow most of the state to go through the rut before hunting was allowed.

This way one specialty group would not have an advantage over the other user groups and protect the resource.

[96trigger]

Quote:

I know the archers will say that they only take a small number of animals but this would level the playing field for all hunters. We could have a rule of no deer hunting from the 3rd weekend of Oct through the 3rd weekend of Nov. That would allow most of the state to go through the rut before hunting was allowed.

If you think the field is level, go ahead and pick up a bow and try it. Then come back here and tell me the field is "level" when you've got a couple.

[BigGills]

Listen, I know if it was a perfect world those rules could apply and its not. And yes I do expect a hunter to pass on a spike buck. Here is what I'm saying, if we could do some things in this State as a cohesive group for say 4-5yrs I KNOW that we will have improvement in our herd and Quality of Deer. I'm sick of seeing hunting shows in the south and/or our neiboring states in the Midwest that pat themselves on the back for good deer management and leading the way for programs at the Gov level. Minnesota has all the potential to do things right but for some reason don't. All I'm saying is lets get aggressive for a few years and see what happens. So much potential; from the North Woods to the Agriculture in the Central and South, to the Bluff country in the SW. Why not.

Maybe I'm just a little bitter because I passed up on a Nice 1yr old Buck 3 times just to have another guy sit in that stand one night and take him just because it was easy (this season). It is an annual delema with no end in sight. Take care.