are people shooting more then one deer?

[Thorn]

To the topic, yes. Please stop stalking me now....LOL

[B. Amish]

forget it...

until I put a fence around my property, put ear tags on all of the deer inside the fence, feed them a 16% protein diet, and balance the sex ratio... maybe then I will start to worry about controlling genetics.

[Neighbor_guy]

I don't know what to say....

Isanti is not Texas...

We dont feed deer here. The deer eat what they can find. Nutrition has as much to do with antler growth as genetics. A "trophy" deer hear would be a "management" buck at best in texas because we can not feed with mecanical feeders the way they do there. We also hunt WILD deer here. Deer that come to a timmed feeder, feeding corn and protine to build antlers are not wild. Texas management doesn't transfer north. We dont have 10,000 acre ranches. A big spread here may be 120 acres. In order to manage a heard the same way you would have to have exclusivity on several adjoining farms and that will never happen.

I have lived in rural Isanti or Cambridge my entire life. And been lucky enough to find good hunting properties in the area. I can say without hesitation that if we could feed the way they do down south our antler size would be bigger. But if we did, the neighbor would set up and shoot the same deer we were feeding. It is just not the same.

A "spike" here, given the same feed oprotunities may be a fork or basket six other places. To give a blanket statement like "shot more deer, get bigger deer" Is without merrit.

Where I live in Isanti, there are a lot of deer. I have hunted and watched the same deer for years. He was always a 10 point, Why? Genetics?, mabe. Mabe the food available just wouldn't provide for anything else. I can tell you this for sure. Where I live and hunt there are a lot of deer. 4 Miles up the road on the public ground there are not. Management on my hunting area is a lot different than if I were hunting on the public ground.

The land owner I deal with says 6 points or better on a buck, and prefers you shoot a doe for every buck you shoot. But his shotgun hunters have no restrictions. Nore do the neighboring property owners.

Like I and others have said before. This is not Texas. Texas rules don't apply. Just because you have hunted here for years does not mean you have the backround make a blanket statement.

[lichen fox]

I've shoot at least 5 per year, mostly by archery...with that said, our hunting group "averages" about 3 deer, per person, per year...archery-firearms-muzzleloader...15 hunters...There, we're back on the topic!

[BLACKJACK]

 Originally Posted By: Thorn

 Originally Posted By: BLACKJACK

 Originally Posted By: Thorn

It's been wrong in MN for a long time. The population is way overabundant.

thorn, there are large areas of SW and western MN where deer are NOT overabundant, a blanket statement like that is simply wrong.

I personally think the DNR does a great job of managing the deer herd in MN, I've been deer hunting here for 30 years and its as good as I've ever seen it. If you want a trophy, they're out there, you just have to go hunt one down. If you want numbers, there are some parts of the state where you can shoot more than one deer. Its up to you to make it a quality hunting experience.

To my best DNR googling.....

There is little question that fewer hunters would apply for the antlerless-only permits, and, as a result, dedicated meat hunters would have an increased chance of getting a permit. This may not be important over much of southern and western Minnesota, where permit numbers often exceed the number of applicants.

------------

There's deer there in them thar hills. Just not enough deer being killed. I think this was in 2000A.D.

thorn, How does that little snippet from the DNR show that deer are over abundant?????

If you've followed the deer trends in MN the last couple of years, the DNR is actually racheting back the number of doe permits in zone 4 because they realized that too many were getting shot, largely because of the All season license, and hunters were complaining about too few deer.

[Thorn]

 Originally Posted By: Neighbor_guy

I don't know what to say....

Isanti is not Texas...

We dont feed deer here. The deer eat what they can find. Nutrition has as much to do with antler growth as genetics.

yes Minnesota feeds deer...I seen 200 on 3 Corn crops within 5 miles. Back on 70 by the gun range.

It may be inadvertant but they eat what they find. I saw Cabelas in Rogers selling deer feeders, corn, nutrition blocks and food plot seed...evil doers!!!!

heck it even says that in the REGS that it's ok to plant a food plot.

I never said I wish MN was TX. To dang hot for me and I lived there 40 years.

Let's go huntin.

[Thorn]

Dang it BLACKJACK! I'm gettin tired of ZONE 4.

Go shoot some deer. Heck i'll even show ya where to find them.

Let's go huntin.

[jlm]

"The TX study has been going on for 30 years, and they use wild deer. Their holding pens are for some does to ensure what males breed them. Spike VS. Forked. It's widely known and it's usfulness has been passed on Internationally. Spikes are genetically inferior in antler production."

I am very sorry this is off topic and I apoligize, however, I feel I need to clarify before people get the wrong impression of this biased reporting. It actually is CLEARLY shown in MULTIPLE empirical studies that spike bucks do NOT result if genetically inferior deer. There are NUMEROUS RECENT and older studies out there that clearly demonstrate this finding. You may have found one that leans this direction, however, in order to give a fair and unbiased representation of what is really going on, you have to do so with consideration to everything that is out there. By far the total picture of all published data does NOT support what you stated above. As a matter of fact, much of the data shows that spike bucks and larger racked deer of the same age show no significant difference in mass or overall score at age 4.5 or older.

I think it is important to state this as some have the general impression that culling deer with help to better the genetics of the herd. Those same studies in Texas (an in many other places)suggest it has no effect. There has never been ANY support that culling deer such as spikes improves the genetics of the herd. Ok, I am done now, just wanted to clarify!!! Thanks all!

[Thorn]

 Originally Posted By: jlm

I am very sorry this is off topic and I apoligize, however, I feel I need to clarify before people get the wrong impression of this biased reporting. It actually is CLEARLY shown in MULTIPLE empirical studies that spike bucks do NOT result if genetically inferior deer.

LOL, posting on the wagon would be better.

The Kerr study does not say the deer are inferior, just the racks.

To even think that a rack isn't genetic inclusive would be idiotic.

Just think if that were the case, that they weren't part of the genetics. I guarantee you that a deers rack would be totally different annually.

Tell me how many sheds are found and then matched to next years growth formation?

How about a Minnesota farm raised bucks worth? Lots, just to pass on the genetics.

The study in Kerr showed the inferior bucks are lessor than their counterpart especially when there are stressed elements introduced. They do grow into an ok buck which is fine by me. Heck, I'll shoot anything legal.

As for other studies...

I think they all show good points, especially the genetics portion

[Thorn]

Ok back on topic...I got my fingers crossed!

[Neighbor_guy]

First, the gun range is not anywere near CRD 70, did you mean 14?

And having been a member of and lived withing a few miles of said range and traveling back and forth along 14, 70, 95, and all the other roads in between for several years as dated a girl and then purchased her parents house a few miles north of there I can state without doubt, That you did not see 200 deer in a combination of 3 fields in that area.

With a post like that you have lost ALL possible credibility with me and therefore I will be taking any further posts with not only a grain of salt, but a spoonfull. And mabe a beer and a shot before responding again.

[whitetailfreak]

had best year ever last year 8 deer 4 in wisconsin. 3 bucks!

[Thorn]

First, the gun range is not anywere near CRD 70, did you mean 14?

And having been a member of and lived withing a few miles of said range and traveling back and forth along 14, 70, 95, and all the other roads in between for several years as dated a girl and then purchased her parents house a few miles north of there I can state without doubt, That you did not see 200 deer in a combination of 3 fields in that area.

With a post like that you have lost ALL possible credibility with me and therefore I will be taking any further posts with not only a grain of salt, but a spoonfull. And mabe a beer and a shot before responding again.

Sorry bud, didn't mean to drive you to drink...LOL, Drive safely.

Last year right before spring after the last snow my Mom-N-Law came to visit. We took her for a ride down 47 to 8 then back west to seven then went South.

There were deer everywhere! There's so many roads that have different names.

Heck I can't explain how the roads are named here. So I believe we were driving seven and came to an intersection at 28 and bam, a deer explosion!. I have never seen anything like it. It was like God just opened the grounds and deer poped up. So we traveled going towards Wallyworld I believe it's 70 back by the gun range between ST Francis and Elk River and the deer were thick the whole way! Instead of going towards Wallyworld we took another turn and went back North to see alot more deer.

That just made my life's experience of traveling the backroads alot more enjoyable. There's also a company back around there that is secluded by a few hundred acres that may harbor hundreds of deer[just a hunch] I believe they detonate bombs sometimes. I was going down their driveway and the sign said do not enter, so I dunno.

Anywho, we counted and estimted 180-200 deer that day..It was around 5pm.

maybe a once in a lifetime experience, and I wish I had proof. but between Farmer Jones place and the other road going back North 200 deer there. It was myself and 3 others that will be glad to testify.

You know between the range being secluded and that bomb factory being off limits..yeah, there's lots of 'em prolly dieng from old age and passing some very good genetics down.

We tried to get permission last year to hunt the ponds down there but was told by the owner that was off limits. Lots of Geese too!

Stay away from salt, IMO it's not good for you...LOL Happy hunting.

[Thorn]

had best year ever last year 8 deer 4 in wisconsin. 3 bucks!

Awesome! we usually take 8 too. We have a place up in Chippewa NAT Forest near Marcell MN. Usually we have 5 to 8 friends and family.

Last year we only got 1 half decent buck, but heck yeah, it's all good.

Get the meat pole ready, Sept. bow hunting is coming soon,

....4 more months!

[Neighbor_guy]

Ok, That's different. The area you are refering to is owned by ATK in Anoka county. Off limits to everyone but the military. I was under the impreasion you were talking about ICSC. My mistake.

Yes, the area you are refering to has a huge amount of deer, but they are unhuntable and therefor not kept in check.

[Thorn]

Ok, That's different. The area you are refering to is owned by ATK in Anoka county. Off limits to everyone but the military. I was under the impreasion you were talking about ICSC. My mistake.

Yes, the area you are refering to has a huge amount of deer, but they are unhuntable and therefor not kept in check.

Geesh.......... that's what I'm talking about,

all of the roads in MN have the same name! They're cut off by land sectioning and then are continuous. Where I lived for 40 years one road had one name. Heck I can't explain it. One thing is for sure, I'ts hard to get lost because the roads are North South East West...I think.

Thanks for the additional info. I wonder what would happen if a person got caught hunting over there?...LOL I always see a few good 10 pointers hanging out there. I have seen the sheriff spotlighting numerous times, and have seen him talking with farmer Jones during the day.

Wonder what he's looking for?....LOL

I have seen some local Goose hunters over at his farm though.

Thanks Again

[jerkbait]

Ok, That's different. The area you are refering to is owned by ATK in Anoka county. Off limits to everyone but the military. I was under the impreasion you were talking about ICSC. My mistake.

Yes, the area you are refering to has a huge amount of deer, but they are unhuntable and therefor not kept in check.

No he is refering to the area northeast of Elk river. The bomb area he is tlaking amount is owned by 3M. Plus the gun range, there is also the Girl Scout Camp that incomposes a large tract of land and Cargil has some big chunk of land in that area also. Most of this is btween Elk River and Zimmerman east of Hwy 169. And yes there are a ton of deer in that area all sticking there tongues out as you drive by laughing since most are untouhchable.

And back on subject I shot 3 deer last year. We love our Vennie!!

[Thorn]

ok now I'm getting some good info. These areas that harbor deer without hunting them. Just blowing them up with bombs>>>LOL

Seriously though,

This dispells some myths for me. There's no if and's or but's.

That when the state does a wide sweep to eradicate a few hundred deer to stop diseases. They do so without true science. It's just random culling.

That when saying- baiting causes deer to interact with each other

and that doing so causes them to spread diseases so baiting should be stopped. I now know, that's a load of bull-ogney. Deer NATURALY herd together.

Both are not conclusive for scientific study. They're statements and personal opinions that are said over and over until it becomes truth.

Deer, as with any other animal must be kept in check to control disease and habitat. Heck MN is doing both, paying farmers to Grow natural areas, and up to last month culled [not hunting],

culled an additional Thousand Plus deer to ensure TB is stopped.

Hunters need to study the facts. There needs to be an EXTENDED HUNTING SEASON. Why taxpayers should have to pay for sharp shooters and extra habitat is beyond me.

It would be a no brainer. Make an additional week and an additional permit available. Not saying wipe them out, it's just management opportunity being wasted from stupididity.

[tedl]

Statewide:

75% - 1 deer

20% - 2 deer

5% - 3+ deer

I don't think an extended season would help. Most people just are not shooting more then one deer.

Shoot more deer!!!

[tedl]

This may upset some, but maybe the state should legalize cross-bows and scopes on muzzleloaders.

I feel this would improve the kill rate, and may put some more people in the woods.

[Wanderer]

To the topic and because tedl raises a good point;):

I think the donation program was the best thing to be created in a long time and could have gone a long way to increasing the harvest where its needed.

I think the biggest reason people don't shoot as many as they can is the processing afterward. Too costly to take several in and too time consuming in a cold garage to do many yourself.

I for one hit the wall at 3. It has to be a monster to shoot after that. But my family does help out and we'll eat em all.

Last year was a bummer year for me for a number of reasons and I took only 1 doe out of the 26 deer I saw on stand. The two years prior, I took 3 and 4 deer with sightings in the 70-80 range.

Much of the downturn was attributed to lower population in zone 4. I hunt all the zones each year and that one has had a noticable decline for the last couple years while others have maintained or increased slightly.

Not sure if equipment is the answer. I'm out there from Oct through Dec with whats legal now. A crossbow would probably bring out alot more archers, but man, what an outcry that would start. Then late season just gets tough with the weather.

There just aren't alot of people who crave venison THAT much and have the resources to deal with it all.

I know I lost the 'I'm done' cred.

[Thorn]

Originally Posted By: lcornice

Statewide:

75% - 1 deer

20% - 2 deer

5% - 3+ deer

I don't think an extended season would help. Most people just are not shooting more then one deer.

Shoot more deer!!!

Why wouldn't it?

I know for a fact being an experienced out of state hunter for years, that I came here for one reason. That reason is no longer in the top 10. MN used to be the creme of the crop when looking for trophy bucks. Due to loss of habitat and overpopulation it has brought the herd some undue stress, namely smaller bucks and disease. Now the DNR has been culling them in certain areas. It wasn't hard for them to cull over 1000 additional deer in just 2 months because they were in there thick as thieves. I believe it was 6-8 sharp shooters. Now to get that Monster Buck it entails much from a hunters patients

Who are these most people that are not shooting more deer? The ones with limited freezer space? No time for an extra day in the field from being such a short season? No gas money to get to a new area? No money for an all season tag?....[i bet that one's gonna change, and change the stats]...QDM managers have their fingers crossed. I would even venture to say that some of those people are unaware that there is an overabundance. Who would dare tell the hunters that? Not the insurance company....LOL, cha-ching. Rates going up again sir, we know you're gonna nail one soon, the total deer population just hit 1,500,000.1/2. LOL

They do not have an equasion for the hunters that don't shoot any deer?

What's that percentage? Thank God MN allows party hunting.

[Thorn]

This may upset some, but maybe the state should legalize cross-bows and scopes on muzzleloaders.

I feel this would improve the kill rate, and may put some more people in the woods.

And using dogs. Hunters have given in to much.

[Thorn]

To the topic and because tedl raises a good point;):

I think the donation program was the best thing to be created in a long time and could have gone a long way to increasing the harvest where its needed.

I think the biggest reason people don't shoot as many as they can is the processing afterward. Too costly to take several in and too time consuming in a cold garage to do many yourself.

I for one hit the wall at 3. It has to be a monster to shoot after that. But my family does help out and we'll eat em all.

Last year was a bummer year for me for a number of reasons and I took only 1 doe out of the 26 deer I saw on stand. The two years prior, I took 3 and 4 deer with sightings in the 70-80 range.

Much of the downturn was attributed to lower population in zone 4. I hunt all the zones each year and that one has had a noticable decline for the last couple years while others have maintained or increased slightly.

Not sure if equipment is the answer. I'm out there from Oct through Dec with whats legal now. A crossbow would probably bring out alot more archers, but man, what an outcry that would start. Then late season just gets tough with the weather.

There just aren't alot of people who crave venison THAT much and have the resources to deal with it all.

I know I lost the 'I'm done' cred.

You didn't find my overpopulation theory as for being a necessity to kill more deer?...LOL, j/k

I won't donate again until MN does their testsing for lead as they should. Taking brains, spines, eyeballs, and bloodshot meat and mixing it together with consumable meat is what got the donations thrown in the trash. What they usually do is send samples to Iowa. And Iowa found no lead in their own tests. The ground meat MN tested showed no lead, the whole cuts unprocessed did. They said it was destined for food shelves, but not weather it was or wasn't processed. I know it wasn't because I sent letters to both GOV Pawlenty and the DNR comissioner.

I see your point in proessing though. It's spot on.

In zone 4 your view is only in the 25% range. 75% of all other hunters view it just the opposit. The new regs will indicate that with a new extended season, instaed of 4 days it'll be 9.

As far as crossbows what's the big deal? Just because they look like a gun?

Heck some modern compond bows can shoot faster. Bowtech 82nd Airborn, and PSE X-Force to name a couple. Either way with them all including Muzzleloader with or without a scope you get 1 shot. With a scope, it's more ethical.

[Wanderer]

Your posts are getting easier to read. Thank you.

I don't disagree with everything you write, it was just the way it was thrown in our faces like we knew nothing.

The crossbow question: The archers in this state have always revered the fact there was little competion in the woods for their season. It was, and still is to some extent, a peaceful time to hunt and a chance to perfect a craft they loved.

You had to put time in with your equipment to be effective.

Fast forward to the new evolution of archery with the fast compounds and super tuned equipment that shoots a great group at 20 yards right off the set up bench. Thats about the time I came into the deer/bow hunting picture along with thousands of others to compete for ground in this peaceful sport. Not to say one needs no practice, but its alot easier to be dialed in these days. (I started shooting long bows when I was a kid at carp and gophers).

Add crossbows = Even less craft required and more people picking them up because it is easier. Not saying its wrong, but I think its an accurate prediction.

It leads to the deteriorization of the unspoiled one on one hunt that some of us require to keep our sanity. Alot of folks up here are in it for the HUNT and not just the SHOOT.

Archery just seems to carry a different attitude.

That's my view North, anyway.