forage identification.

[b1gf1sh1]

ok. i've looked everywhere everytime i think of it and i can never find any in-depth information on this subject. how do you identify a forage thats 20-60 feet below you without a camera? sure you can know the habits of a baitfish but some have the same. just wondering if anyone who knows can share the knowledge or if anyone knows where i can get that info. really it's one thing to know whats in there but another to know what's on your screen.

some bodies of water have more than one base, and some several.

[PDXFisher]

When I was out with Chad Cain on Kinkaid last month, half of the time it was all about finding the forage. So the sonar was extremely important to him since the shallow arms weren't producing. We eventually found a cloud...and I mean a CLOUD of shad. There were so many the sonar thought they were bottom, the whole screen freaked and blacked out. We were trolling through them and could feel our lures hitting the shad every few seconds, and we even harpooned a few with our trebles.

I asked him about forage in Minnesota, when he's guiding on Vermillion and Leech (because I really wanted to learn about this kind of thing, too). He said he pays very little attention to forage on sonar in Minnesota...like, none. He never goes around looking for forage, he just learns his spots and calls it good. So there you go, one of the top Muskie guides in the world says he doesn't go around searching for forage on sonar in Minnesota, who am I to argue?

[DHanson]

Forage is important on any body of water. Yes, that includes Minnesota.

[PDXFisher]

How often do you go around looking for forage with your sonar and decide to stop to fish Muskies because of your discovery? I would agree that it is important, probably extremely important. The spots he fishes are most likely spots because there's forage there.

The way I look at it there are a few reasons for a fish to be at a certain depth/structure (in no particular order).

1. Water temperature

2. Oxygenation (closely related to #1)

3. Forage present (probably closely related to #1 and #2)

Shallows warm faster. If they have weeds, faster yet. Weeds also have more forage, I would guess. So that's about the depth of my understanding (pretty shallow). I understand about the going shallow to metabolize.

What I don't understand is why they suspend over deep water? How do you find them in deep water if they're not on the top? I know they like shallow water with deep water close by. I assume you can extrapolate that to liking deep water with shallow water close by?

What other factors can you examine to find Muskies in deep water?

In the southern reservoirs it makes sense to look for clouds of baitfish since that's about all the Muskies eat. They're pretty small, so they have to eat more of them, more often than the things they're typically eating in MN. One big perch and a Muskie is done eating for 8-24 hours, depending on temps (from what I've seen from other posts on here).

Of course, most of my fish come on reaction strikes and I have no idea where that fits into everything

[Esox_Magnum]

Being we don't have shad or ciscoes we fish spots vers forage. Forage base is mainly gills and perch, weed or rock oriented. Problem is vast amounts of weeds to cover. Here you learn spots or areas and cast them till you move or catch fish or decide they arent there that day and start looking off the edges or different spots.

[muskiedreams]

I agree with chad on the summer months but if you ask him in the fall I am sure he is fishing bait fish if he is in mn . no ciscos??? down there they are fishing the shad spawn in spring up here work the cisco/tulibee in the fall.

[Steve Foss]

On the big lakes like Vermilion and Leech and Mille Lacs, I bet most folks fish spots all summer, most of them independent of where the cisco/tulibees are. Those lakes have lots of other forage species to keep the skies busy, and 'skis like warmer water.

And of course, when the fall trollers switch tactics to key in on the cisco/tulibee staging and spawn, they're also fishing spots, because on those lakes the cisco/tulibee spawn and stage in the same locations each year, and these spots are well known.

Is there some kind of musky pattern in summer that puts suspended

'skis on deeper cisco roaming the main basins? It would be interesting to see, but my instinct says it's not that likely. Cisco need cold water. Muskies do best in warm water, and my guess is the muskies are only keying on ciscos in late fall because the WHOLE lake is cold and the 'skis have to put on the feed bag for winter.

Just my thoughts. Anyone else have evidence of muskies feeding on coldwater cisco/tulibee in summer?

[markkstanley]

The big pike in Mille Lacs are out keying on the ciscoes/tubilees in the summer. I think a few muskies are too. They don't get fished much because you are more likely to connect with a musky in shallow during the summer. Chasing open basin fish is even less of a numbers game than hitting spots. There is a pay off though. The biggest muskies are out in the basins.

[Steve Foss]

Thanks, Mark. I knew big pike like cooler water than the smaller ones and will suspend and key on coldwater forage, and from late June on I generally target pike by trolling deep-diving minnowbaits around the thermocline off deep shoreline breaks or mid-lake structure.

Didn't know that about the muskies, so thanks for the info.

Sounds like a guy could have a pretty good shot at not only boating some big pike, but the occasional big 'ski as well by trolling through those cisco schools in summer. Wouldn't surprise me at all to encounter the odd really big 'eye in the same pattern.

[Scott M]

I would think forage identification would be more important in bigger systems where musky can afford to be selective and spend more time in open water, particularly in years when forage is superabundant and only if you are trolling or fishing a unique window like the tullibee spawn in the fall. In smaller systems musky need to take what they can get, so they are more easily spot-fished where they can ambush suckers, redhorse, perch, etc. How often are you matching the hatch in casting anyways? More likely you are looking for a reaction strike.

In a bigger system muskie are going to be looking for round-bodied, oily, soft-rayed forage like whitefish or tullibee. Like STF said, you are looking at a warm water fish chasing a cold water species. There will always be two types of muskies. Shallow water ambush predators, and open water feeders. Despite the high energy costs of such open water foraging, there are plenty of fish that do it. Dan Craven makes a living on Leech trolling open water to start the year. I spent a couple days on Mille Lacs with a buddy trying to graph cisco in open water. In past years my friend has marked some big fish cruising. We weren't able to pick them up, but they are out there.

To answer the original poster's question, I think you need to examine the lake survey reports and try to match the fish community with what behavior you are seeing. As you pointed out, there may be several prey items that are found in similar habitats and occupy similar niches. Try to use behavior to narrow your identification down. Using your example if you were on Leech pulling cranks through Walker Bay and you marked big schools of baitfish in 20-60 feet of water, you could make the assumption that you are seeing tullibee and not perch, particularly if it was midsummer and the surface water temperature was 67 degrees. There just aren't that many times that you won't be able to deduce what is below you in Minnesota with a light background in fish ecology and behavior.

[cjac]

I think the water temp at a specific depth can help identify what species the baitfish are. I remember RK stating last year that in the peak water temps of summer the combination of water temp and oxygen levels can create a band less than two feet wide in depth that the tulibees can survive. That's a VERY narrow band. That said, it's likely a depth that muskies would not be at.

Mille Lacs interests me, since it doesn't establish a thermocline, meaning in the Fall it doesn't turn over, since it's basically a gaint wind swept bowl. So, where are all the tulibee all summer? Most likely in the vast basins that Mark Stanley mentioned. Question is, out of 130k acres, how do you find them and target them? In the Fall, many are caught on the named reefs and flats that are adjacent to deeper water and the infamous tulibee holes.

Where are the bigger fish that are caught in the Fall all season long? That's the million dollar question...... Sure some are caught, but not in proportion to the Fall. Not the Sumos though.....

As Jonny P says......he's in search for the mother of all pike in the great wide open!

[mtreno]

baitfish baitfish baitfish - always key into baitfish.

would you rather chuck baits at a fish warming herself or a fish feeding? think maybe a fish on a big body of water could eat a belly full and then move shallow to warm up? is this fish able to travel long distances?

in a givin 24 hour period, ciscos will move up off the bottoms to feed on plankton at specific times. these feeding windows bring in larger fish to feed on the ciscos. these larger fish are very catchable even by casting. what really shocked me last year was the amount of huge walleyes we cought in 30 ft of water running baits only 10 feet down. ever seen a walleye come in with a 10 inch bait crossways in her mouth that you cought 20 feet off the bottom? think there are big skies that keep in close contack with these schools?

on some lakes i really feel the best musky fishing is yet to be found. ya you can sometimes trick a fish to eat when she is not feeding - but would it not be easier to catch a fish that is already feeding?

[b1gf1sh1]

 Quote:

To answer the original poster's question, Using your example if you were on Leech pulling cranks through Walker Bay and you marked big schools of baitfish in 20-60 feet of water, you could make the assumption that you are seeing tullibee and not perch, particularly if it was midsummer and the surface water temperature was 67 degrees. There just aren't that many times that you won't be able to deduce what is below you in Minnesota with a light background in fish ecology and behavior

anybody who's read two of my post's knows i fish the St. criox river mostly ( and knows i don't speel so gude ). theres 60-70 foot holes and 50 foot runs that are miles long, steep drops, enough cover for anything. food base is in recent years over abundent with gizzard shad,(result of white bass over harvest??) as a result i've been seeing other fish like crappie, perch, sunfish and even mooneye and that get to nicer sizes now. not as good as 25-30 years ago but still nice. being a river it's got a very diverse food base for a large fish. and the boats (big as some houses) on that river make fishing very difficult.... anyway to make a long story short, i asked this question because i had a downrigger and took it back because i think i'm going to go the extra mile and get the Walker strike vision. studying and figuring out these food fish will be easier and i think more fun that way. now my only dillema is BW or Color? i just think it will open up whole new options for me. thanks for the info. hope i can put it to use in my logs.

[Scott M]

 Originally Posted By: mtreno

would you rather chuck baits at a fish warming herself or a fish feeding? think maybe a fish on a big body of water could eat a belly full and then move shallow to warm up? is this fish able to travel long distances?

Sounds like swordfish or tuna. Tuna and swordfish dive deep into the ocean where the water is very cold. Swordfish are able to raise the temperature of their brains and eyes, which allows faster eye movements when hunting. They will swim near the surface where the waters are warm to raise their body temperatures and then dive and begin hunting. Tuna are able to warm their entire bodies through a heat exchange mechanism called the rete mirabile, which helps keep heat inside the body, and minimizes the loss of heat through the gills. They also have their swimming muscles near the center of their bodies instead of near the surface, which minimizes heat loss. Both these fish have physiology that is adapted to their feeding style. Perhaps muskie have developed a behavioral pattern that is similar to what you describe. Forage in open basins and then slink back to the shallows to relax, speed up their metabolism, and quickly digest their food.

 Quote:

ya you can sometimes trick a fish to eat when she is not feeding - but would it not be easier to catch a fish that is already feeding?

What if you look at just how much time a fish is feeding, particularly shallow water fish? Are they like snakes, where they only need one meal and then they are full and are not foraging? Or are they continually looking for their next meal, an opportunist at all times? If it's me I don't have time to wait for a fish to turn on, I'm going to head out and try to provoke strikes. Yes, in theory it's easy to catch fish when they are already feeding but no one knows when they will be doing just that.

[Scott M]

b1gf1ish1, you are right, that's a whole different ballgame! I wasn't thinking about rivers at all in that post. You can really encounter a lot of different fish in a river setting, and at various depths and locations. That can make your 'guestimating' a lot tougher. When you frame your question that way for muskie fishing it makes it a little tougher.

I don't know if you'd have much like with the strike vision on your downriggers. Probably not enough visibility in the Croix for a downrigger camera. But I'm not Croix or downrigger expert, so good luck with whatever your decision.

[b1gf1sh1]

thanks. the water is silt stained for sure, mud and that from erosion and that. big lake st. croix with it's stillwaters aint to bad with a camera. and once you hit those deep holes that murk is minimized, just dark. so the camera would need light of some sort. iron stained. i had a camera years ago a friend borrowed me so i could see if i wanted one. i did'nt. but this thing does two things. and i know i want a downrigger. thanks for your help. syotw

[cjac]

mtreno,

You're talking about Fall with the big walleyes hitting at 10 fow in 30 fow? I'd like to think so, if not you're onto a great new pattern and we need to talk..... North end in the summer is where we see 'em relaxing for lack of a better word. Question is, where did they come from?

Mille Lacs is a different beast, but yeah, we've seen those big 'eyes too, they do look funny with a Grandma or Jake sideways in the mouth for sure. I agree, July-Sept the big girls are out there, maybe we should make a couple Red Door to Isle trolling runs and see what we come up with?

[mtreno]

Chris - let me know when your coming up - i am living out there this summer.

nope - was end of June - also found something similar second week of July

funny you said trollin from red door to isle - i trolled from cove bay to malmo. found this school - went past it - came back - found fish stayed on school for about 4 days until it moved. were talking "miles" of ciscos..... with huge hooks mixed in. hard to find edges but thats where more of the big fish were. spent most of my time out there last season working on that pattern. talk about sunburn.......

[Nick Kuhn]

In Wisconsin you just drop a light pole down and catch them. Usuaully it's perch or shiners. It really doesn't matter what they are, you can throw something very different through there and they'll still look at it.

[cjac]

 Quote:

Chris - let me know when your coming up - i am living out there this summer.

Matt, it's more like let me know when I should come up! I have lots and lots of vacation time piled up since I really couldn't do much last year with back op #1. So far op #2 seems to be good, so hopefully things will go well this summer.

Sounds like a fun pattern to work on.... Probably a good thing I stocked up on 10 inch Believers this winter....