12v DC vs 120 AC fish house wiring

[Guest]

When wiring up a fish house, it seems to me that it would be much simpler and cheaper to simply wire it for 120 volt AC and attach a inverter between the wiring and the battery source. I've been reading on inverters and you can pick up a simple 150 watt inverter for $40 that would supply a typical fish house for all the lighting it would need plus a radio. Double the price ($80)and you can pick up a 200 watt inverter that would run a tv, along with your lights and maybe even a small microwave if you turned off all your other accessories while it ran. This way you can save money on all the other overpriced 12 volt accessories with built-in inverters and just use the regular 120 volt accessories that you've probably got around the house. These inverters are something like 99% efficient so it's not like you're going to drain your batteries any faster...

I can't see much of a down side to this. Why would somebody choose to wire for 12 volt vs. 120 volt? Am I missing something here? Arguments to both sides please!

Thanks in advance.

[Grabs]

Your going down the right path.

[eyehunter]

When I wired my house, I just used regular old 14-2 120V house wire and ran it to my light sockets. I ran the end of that outside the house. I then took apart one of those heavy duty extension cords (the ones that they make for plugging in you car, only about 8 feet long) I took the male end off of the cord and put it on the 14-2 wire coming out of the house. Then I took the extension cord, and on the end that now has bare wires, I put a couple of small aligator clips that you can get from any hardware store for a couple of bucks. Now when you want to run 12V you just plug your modified extension cord to your house and clip the other end to a battery and put 12V RV light bulbs in the house and you have light. If you need 120V you just simply use a regular extension cord, plug it to your male end coming out of the house and the other to your power source (generator, or your garage if you are working on it in your front yard and need a little light) just replace the light bulbs with regular bulbs that you use at home. This way you can use it for both 12V and 120V without an inverter. Of course I do not use a Micorwave on the ice so that may change things, I have a 3 burner gas stove from a camper in my house. Hope this helps, it seems to work well for me.

It's fun to hear new ideas about how guys rig their houses for the next one I build. Hope to hear more ideas on this also.

[Kaz]

Tan: Eye has the righrt idea. Wire it for 120 vac, and for the ice, just change the the bulbs. I use mine for both 12vdc and 120vac. Really the difference between buying a inverter and a 12 vdc TV is about the same. The inverter will use more amps in the conversion than the radio, TV and lights you are powering. Lights are a really big drain on the battery if you use 120vac bulbs and an inverter. If you are going to use a generator for a microwave, then use a small battery charger for the 12vdc through the battery for everything else.... I've been there done that!!!....Kaz

[ccarlson]

Eyehunter- I really like your multi use idea. I just built a 6x10 and was wondering if I should go with gas camper style lights or with 12v electric. I like your design since you can then plug it in in the off season when I plan to use it for storage.

So, my question is, how long can I expect a deep cycle battery to run 2 12v. lights while ice fishing? Should I go with more than 2 lights? I was maybe thinking of doing 2 main 12v bulbs overhead and then have smaller 12v dome style lights on a switch on the wall just above each hole.

If I have to always drag the battery home to charge it, I may go with gas lights still but if I can get say 10-15+ hours of running time off a charge, I will go battery.

ccarlson

[Kaz]

CC: Maybe I can answer your question. I have two deep cycle batteries and I use both the dome lights and I have a hanging light with a shade, using a 12vdc bulb that is the same screw base as the regular 120vac bulbs. The dome lights will last at least two days with both on. The larger bulb will last a good 15/18 hours on one charge. I also run a TV and a Marine Radio most of the time when I'm on the ice. I also have a Ham Radio that draws 20 amps on transmit, so I'm really drawing the batteries down. Think about how long the dome lights in your car will stay on, when you forget to shut them off. Then when things start to go dim, I have a plug on the hitch that connects directly to the batteries. I plug the other end to a cord that has a Lighter plug on the end which I plug into my lighter socket at the rear of the Denali. 20 minutes with the truck running, and the batteries are back at a full charge. I also charge the batteries while I'm driving to the lake I'm going to fish. Many people just have a couple of clips on the leads from the lights, which they hook right to the car battery. This does present a problem, if you forget to start the car before the battery go completely down. I like my setup and I've never been with out lights or TV. This last year I bought a Honda 1KW generator which gives me power for the Microwave, great for soup or whatever you want to heat. My fishouse is a 7X16 KingCROW which I've spent many of nights. My heater is a vented propane 30k BTU with two 40lb tanks. It stays very comfortably even to below zero... I can't wait for the ICE.....Kaz

[hawkeye43]

dont forget about the 12v rope lights, very low draw and with a dimmer switch can be as bright or dim as you need.

[beer battered]

Kaz,

Are you stating that a 12 volt DC light bulb will draw less than a 120 volt AC light bulb, meaning that the batteries will last longer on the DC bulbs than AC? While I've never tried it, my guess would be that if you used a low watt AC bulb of the same wattage as the DC bulbs, they should last the same. The conversion that occurs at the inverter should be negligible at near 99% efficiency.

What are the typical watts of a DC bulb that fits a standard AC socket? If it's about 40 watts, the physics of it should mean that both the AC and DC 40 watt bulbs will draw the same from a battery with the only difference being the small amount of loss at the inverter.

Again, I've never done this so I'm just going off theory.

[Kaz]

Beer: It may of been confusing in the way I put it. A 12vdc dome bulb draws less than a large screw base 12vdc bulb. They put out about the same amount of light, but the heat off the larger bulb uses up more current. As for converting the 12vdc to 120vac lighting, I don't think that's a solution to keeping the batteries up longer. I haven't done the math, E=IR, but I believe it will show it doesn't work. I did find a old Flash bulb screw base that I can put a bayonet 12vdc dome light into, so I'm going to try that this year. Converters work well if you have your car or truck motor running while you are converting. I think I'll try a converter with a amp meter in line to see if the two bulbs produce the same candle power and draw the same amperage. When I find out I'll post the results. My gurss is that it won't, otherwise the camper industry would do that, instead of using a stepdown transformer for most camper and motorhome lighting. Hope I clarified my previous post.....Kaz ..PS I think the wattage on the 12vdc screw base bulbs is 60 watts

[This message has been edited by Kaz (edited 10-22-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Kaz (edited 10-22-2003).]

[ccarlson]

So before I put in this 12/120v system, where can I check out the rope lights? I remember hearing about them last year but not sure where to find info on them. Are they LED?

Thanks for all the other info guys.

ccarlson

[Guest]

Kaz,

I'd be very interested in hearing what you find if you're able to set up an amp meter between both the DC and AC bulb's.

I've been out of school too long but I think a Watt is Voltage X Current. Therefore a 40 watt bulb running at 12 volts would consume 40/12 amps 3.5 amps, I this is per hour. I forget how to calculate it for AC power, I think there's some sinusoidal formula for it. Maybe there's a spindle-head out there that can tell how many amps a 40 watt, 120 volt AC bulb would consume. I agree that if the 12 volt bulbs don't put off any heat they would be much more efficient, but unless it's an LED light I assume they must put off some heat because the light source is just a super heated coil in both cases isn't it?

[eyehunter]

You guys are getting way too technical for me. I do believe that you draw less power with the 12V dc bulbs than you would running it through an inverter, but that's just a guess, nothing scientific about it.
I would also like to know more about the 12V rope lights though. Does anybody know where I could find them?

[Guest]

I have been working on a 12V LED Rope lighting system for the past 2 1/2 years. It has many applications for the sportsman and is very low amp draw.

You also get what you pay for in rope lighting. PVC rope is junk in the cold, it will soon fail due to the expansion and contraction rate of the materials. Cold will separate the internal wiring. Once this happens the lighting string is shot.

Most rope lighting you find in a hardware store or at a home building center is PVC rope. This PVC product is good to +32, barely. Cold will make it as brittle as frozen licorice.

The LED rope I use in my lighting kits is high stress silicone rated from +140 to -40. I tested many types of rope lighting and not one held up to -30 except the high stress silicone.

The way the internal wire and LED is spun into the silicone is a big factor too. Some configurations are better for permanent mounts while others can take manipulation in extreme cold without failure of the circuit.

I produced LED lighting kits that went out to many field testers last winter. Some went to the In-Fisherman staff, Tony Dean, Vexilar, select clients, and some to product development reps from companies like Frabill.

The bulk of the feedback was very good. Some concerns were voiced and I got on them quickly. Finding the right mounting systems for the cold was one of the greatest challenges. I think we have got that covered now.

Rope lighting is a great system for ice shacks. But if you wish high output lighting and low amp draw then you would be best to explore other options like 12V neon. LED Rope is a gentle and variable lighting system that will protect your night vision.

Without letting too many new cats out of their bags I'll say this though, it functions very well on the move.

My favorite application is run in conjunction with my on ice electronics. Some here at FM.com have seen my system and product in action already. If your a twilight and night fisherman, it's the real deal.

------------------
Ed Carlson

Backwater Guiding

"ED on the RED"

><,sUMo,>

[Guest]

A watt, is a watt, is a watt!!

That's what I've found out from some "spindle-heads" around my office area. Whether measured in DC or AC, a 40 watt bulb is still going to draw the same amount of power. A 40 watt DC bulb will draw 3.5 amps from a 12 volt battery source. A 40 watt 120 volt AC bulb will draw .33 (40/120) amp rms (room mean squared). If you used a inverter to convert DC to AC, you should see approximately .33 amps rms being consumed at the light bulb for a 120 volt, 40 watt bulb. Now on the other side of the inverter between it and the battery source, it will be all DC measurements. In order to convert a 12 volt source to 120 v AC using .33 amps, it will have to draw 3.5 amps which is the same as a 40 watt DC bulb. A 97% efficient inverter would draw approx an extra .1 amps which is pretty negligible. The gain you get from the inverter is the big drop in amperage used. You can run the wires much longer distance and use a much thinner wire. Not that this will gain you much in a fish house, but the facts are that you won't loose much power at the inverter conversion and you'll be able to use more house hold "stuff" instead of the more expensive 12 volt "stuff".

Draw backs to using an inverter:
Most don't run a true sin wave, they run more of a square wave voltage source. Therefore it is not recommended to run tv's, stereos, most other audio/video type of equipment because it will produce a buzzing sound due to the sharp corners of the square sin wave shape.

Lamps, lights, heaters, microwaves and most other non-audio devices will run fine as long as they don't use too many watts. Use flourescent bulbs if possible as they will draw half the amps as a standard bulb and last much longer. Turn off most everything if running a microwave as that will draw near the max wattage supplied by the inverter. I'm going to wire in a few 12 volt lighter plug-in's around my shack for some 12 volt accessories such as radios, and TV's that have a built in inverter. Run the best of both worlds on the ice and be comfortable for cheap.

[Brother Bro]

I am in the process of building a 10x16 on skids and I am considering using 14/2 wiring for both ac/dc lighting. My plan is using a inverter a 600 plus watt because I want to run my lights/TV/Radio etc... then instead of wondering if my battery has enough juice I was thinking of installing a solar panel to recharge my battery during daylight hrs.... What are the downers of this???? I have been watching hsolist and seems that a guy can get into this setup for under $ 150 -200...

Bro

[chunkytrout]

Not many downers with the solar idea. Just keep the panel clean and connection intact. See if you can secure it down well enough to avoid theft. Vent your battery compartment as well. When charging, they can emit a dangerous gas.
chunky

[Guest]

Bro,

I was also thinking about the solar panel idea. They are fairly cheap, I think I've seen some for $40 that would do a decent job. Do you know if you have to add any sort of circuitry between the solar panel and the battery or just a direct connection? I've used solar panels to run things before, but never as a charger. What are the chance of cooking your battery? Any other potential problems to be aware of?

[Stradic]

Similar question for me on the solar panel. I saw where Heartland America has a solar panel for 19.99 which is made to plug into your ciggy lighter of your vehicle to recharge your battery. Any thoughts?