Comments for the DNR

[GunDr]

This original thread did not only deal with traps, but I included here beacuse it has turned to dealing with traps. And, seeing there are leaders in the trapping community here on this thread, they may find some interest in it.

Since this tread started, I've been sitting on the sideline, and reading everyones' opinions.

I feel this is an analogy to the restriction of firearms, or even drunk drivers. The trap, the gun, or the car, are only inanimate objects. Neither of them pose a threat, when used responsibly. But when they are not, it's those objects that get blamed.

To blame a trap for a loss, when it's been placed during tresspaasing, or out of season, is like blaming the gun for a shooting.

I've seen many examples given here, that go a long ways to prevent a accidental death to a pet. But with all the training in the world, won't prevent those from being unethical. How many times have you seen drivers convicted of multiple DUI's.

[poutpro]

Your loss is just another example where trapper education is needed. There is no reason to be trapping on land right now because the furs are no good. If he were going for beaver, the 330 traps need to be in water.

[tealitup]

Could he be trapping for Predator control on private land -

[walleye101]

Quote:

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I feel this is an analogy to the restriction of firearms, or even drunk drivers. The trap, the gun, or the car, are only inanimate objects. Neither of them pose a threat, when used responsibly. But when they are not, it's those objects that get blamed.

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This is exactly what I have been saying all along. There is no need to ban 220s, only apply some reasonable restrictions on their use. I like your firearms anology. I do not support gun bans but there certainly are all sorts of restrictions on how they are used. You and I have the right to own and use guns in a resposible maner. But when you abuse those restrictions and use guns irresponsibly there certainly are consequences.

Same applies to alcohol and vehicles. Neither are a problem when used responsibly. But when abused there are consequences.

[gorrilla]

First, I have to ask I have to question on an open enrollment site like this, is it possible the cocker never was killed? Is this someone trying to "prove" their agenda by creating a story? If it is true then I am sorry.

If your dog was really killed then I can relate to your loss, and it sucks it happened.

Several points I have to bring up.

Why was the guys setting 220's near your property when he is aware of your dog?

Why don't you have your dog in a kennel when its not supervised, or better yet have an underground fence installed...

Why aren't we trying to ban cars???? It seems to me it could have just as easily been hit on the road 1/4 mile from your house.

Does the boy have permission to trap on the land, and did you have permission to have your dog on the land at the time???

Seems like a lot of unaddressed topics before the lynch mob chases down trappers.

Its an emotional topic if it did happen, but we need to know the whole story before we "get a rope..."

[ruster]

Gorilla,

Rest assured this did happen, I wish it hadn't but it did. I live in the Bemidji area, I'm sure the trapper had permission to trap the land, however, there is no reason for a land set this time of year. One of the reasons I own 40 acres is so I don't have to have my dogs kenneled 24/7. This dog was not a roamer/wanderer, but on this day, for whatever reason she left my proberty, maybe she smelled the traps bait? The wind was from that direction. I'm not looking for a ban on conibears, just some more stringet restrictions on the land sets that are potentially deadly for dogs and other not targeted animals. I sure don't have all the answers but I don't want any of you guys to go thru what I have in the last couple of days.

[protrapper]

Sorry for your loss. But it could have been prevented. The trapper from your story was in the right, and you were in the wrong. The dog knows no better. Just cause you own 40 acres in a rural area does not give you the right to let your dog run free. Thats why theres leash laws in place. Most folks in rural areas and CO's frown on free ranging dogs stray or not. In my neck of the woods one warning to the owner and the next time it's shot. I know that's extreme but thats how some folks feel. I don't myself. But my cousin lives near Pengilly and his two labs got loose one day a few years ago and a farmer over a mile away shot them both no questions asked. Again sorry for your loss accident or not it doesen't heal the pain of a good friend trust me I know first hand.

[ruster]

My dogs do not "run free", there are no leash laws in our township. I was inattentive for a moment and I accept responsibility for that. My dog was killed by a baited conibear land set, no cubbie,etc. In my opinion that is is reckless/careless set. Possible even illegal. So if this happened when we grouse hunt this woods in the fall/winter whose fault would it be? Mine because I didn't have my dog on a leash while hunting? Sorry can't follow that logic.

[jigging-matt]

Protrapper, So if a guys dogs accidently get loose it is okay to just shoot them, even if it is the first times the dogs have ever gotten loose. Would hate to live in your area. I can see if they are a continuous nuisance to the farmer, but one time??? So if the Farmers livestock gets out can you shoot that too?

[gorrilla]

Ruster, first of all I'm a big dog fan myself. I'm also a former trapper too.

But most importantly for my dog, I have been putting in an underground dog fence for myself, my parents, my friends. If you need one put in this summer let me know I live near Breezy Point. They are way cheaper than a new dog.

The trap was legally set if it was a 220. It sounds to me like the trapper was in the right on this one if it was before March 15th. That is the end date for raccoon, oppossum, fox, etc. After that date he can still legally catch nuisance animals or non prime coyotes.

Personally I don't usually make this set especially this time of year. It does sound legal, BUT I question its intended catch a little. Fishers and martens are closed, bobcats are closed, Otters are closed,fox don't like tight quarters of a 7 inch body grip opening usually. The only things that keeps it legal are the possibility of the intended quarry being coyotes, skunks, or beavers or feral nuisance animals like feral cats/dogs.

To me the non target risks might be too high at that time of year in that part of the state, but I can't tell unless I know the whole situation. He may have had a reason to ethically set the trap. I do believe he should have the legal right to do it. I also believe its possible he could need some better education on trapping. Not sure yet...

Skunks WILL get nailed often on 220's. Most of us trappers don't want them there though (who wants to try and reset springs with a stink bomb wrapped around in it).

On certain sets a 220 will catch beavers. Are they ideal? Far from it. They are quite small for a big beaver and unless guarding a bank den or tight funnel area in water, they aren't likely to work well, especially baited(w/meat ?) on dry land.

Coyotes are a rarety to ever hear of in a 220. They like space in a set and can be nabbed much better with legholds and snares due to their cautious nature.

The problem with the fault here is on private property I BELIEVE you should be able to set a 220 at any time and leave the discretion to the trapper. If you have feral cats predating your local rabbits and ground nesting birds, problem solved. Deer running trouble making dogs, its a shame, but who can predict that. I'm not saying your dog was a deer chaser, but there are plenty in the state. Just ask the local wardens or look around SE of Bemidji. On public land there should be little risk of dogs running out of sight of owners this time of year either IMO. If your are a responsible dog owner you should keep an eye on your pooch during walk on public land. Do I always? I can't see him 100% of the time, no. But I try to keep very close tabs on him and realize the risk is I don't...

Its a shame you lost your dog. Really.

Its also the risk one takes when a dog isn't properly supervised or contained.

Did the trapper have an ill advised set at a weird time of the year? Maybe, but I'd still have to hear of his intended target and see the type of set. As well as see the actual proximity to your yard before I'd decide...

The problem with this dump being debated on websites or in legislature is nobody gets to see the whole picture and both sides. I think people need to be educated of the trap, aware of there pets, and not hate the tool.

Could we greatly reduce all pet losses by fencing all properties, not driving cars, never setting traps again??

Sure, but of course that's not practical. Since the trappers numbers are relatively small it doesn't seem to effect many people directly if they are restricted or banned, right? WRONG...

Why can't people see that taking away rights from responsible trappers is WAY WRONG...

If you are a hunter or fisherman, you need to worry more about protecting rights of something that does a lot of good to protect the resource and offer numerous people enjoyment of the outdoors, bonus incomes, and utilization of renewable resources as well a the best most efficient predator control means left. It does matter to more than just the trappers. It matters to PETA, Humane Society, etc.

This should concern you, because your nuts if you don't think your sport is next. Poor birds, poor deer, poor fish, poor pets is there way of thinking. Don't give them a foot hold.

Sorry about the long post, my fingers are out of breath...

[ruster]

Dog was killed on 3/31/2007. Trap was about 350-400 yards from my front door, about 25 yards from my property line.

[walleye101]

Quote:

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First, I have to ask I have to question on an open enrollment site like this, is it possible the cocker never was killed? Is this someone trying to "prove" their agenda by creating a story? If it is true then I am sorry.

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Maybe it is possible that no dogs have ever been killed in these kind of sets? Possibly the whole issue of dogs being killed in 220s has been made up? And those of us asking for some reasonable restrictions on the use of a very dangerous non-selective killer set are all PETA members?

[Jameson]

Ruster, so, ah, um,.... How old is your daughter?

[gorrilla]

Ruster, these details would have been nice in the original post.

I also would be mad at the guy for not communicating to you his intentions, or better yet, he should have not set on an obvious site close to your house/commonly free roaming dog(within your yard and not fenced).

Obviously he knew of the dog and possibility this could happen. Sounds like bad judgement on his part. One guys dumb move shouldn't have to be regulated by the government. Your original post of suggesting illegality on his part or your resulting vow to illegally harass and tamper future trapping sites on other land seems like a big overreaction to the situation though.

Don't let some boneheads like this, bring down the rights of responsible trappers!!!!

[ruster]

Gorilla,

Sorry if I did not supply enough info in my original post for you to properly (Contact Us Please) the situation, I was pretty much foaming at the mouth in anger. I have calmed down somewhat but I do believe I will forever be against baited land set conibears because of this experience.

Jameson, I'm pretty sure my daughter is too young,smart,atheletic and good looking for anybody who frequents this site.

[walleye101]

When I first started posting on this topic I nievely believed that some common sense could prevail in finding some reasonable solutions to a very real problem. After reading the opinions here I am not so optimistic. There are people defending the actions of trappers using this set any time, and anywhere, regardless of the risk, just because it is (currently) a legal set. At the same time blaming the unfortunate dog owners for being irresponsible, even though their activities are also legal.

With this kind of convoluted logic, and total resistance to any resonable common sense restictions on how this trap is used, I expect we will eventually loose the use of this tool altogether. That is extremely unfortunate.

Anyone want to buy about four-five dozen 220 conibears?

[tealitup]

Quote:

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Jameson, I'm pretty sure my daughter is too young,smart,atheletic and good looking for anybody who frequents this site.

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Never a more true statement

[gorrilla]

I guess as usual when these topics go on for this long, they get bogged down with too much talk.

Its a shame because its one of the few spots I've seen lately where trappers could enlighten a few people that the "public" woods is for everybody not just bird hunters with dogs. If someone has a dog and knows how to properly hunt and supervise it, no problem. Likewise, if a trapper owns a body grip trap and uses common sense in placing it, no problem.

The problem I see is its always possible to find several extreme examples of some (Contact Us Please) on both sides.

I don't think this is a case for restrictions, just taking off the blinders and realizing the whole world wasn't made for Rover to run and play wherever he might go without consequences. If your looking for that, learn to keep your dogs on your own property or at least keep watch over them when out in public...

It seems this HSOforum if filled with many avid smart fishermen, but often I think the lack of woodmanship and arrogance of some makes it hard to talk about hunting or trapping on here...

[ruster]

Gorilla,

You and I will probably never agree on this subject and thats ok. At least we have a place to discuss it and hopefully everyone on all sides of the issues learns from each other. Thats what i like about this site.

[BLACKJACK]

Quote:

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There are people defending the actions of trappers using this set any time, and anywhere, regardless of the risk, just because it is (currently) a legal set.

At the same time blaming the unfortunate dog owners for being irresponsible, even though their activities are also legal.

With this kind of convoluted logic, and total resistance to any resonable common sense restictions on how this trap is used, I expect we will eventually loose the use of this tool altogether.

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Very well stated and so true!!!

Education is the key here, for both trappers and hunters/dogowners. All it takes is a few dead dogs in connibear traps, set by a few bad apples, to sour the whole situation. My guess is that the bad apples/trappers that set 220's where they could catch dogs run in two catagories a) the beginning, enthusiastic trapper that doesn't know any better and the old timer that doesn't give a rip and is in it for the few extra dollars. The beginning trapper can be solved by education, the don't give a rip guy has to have a penalty hanging over his head to make him stop.

All I know is that after my bad experience, I never hunt ditches/cattails close to roads anymore, its too easy for trappers to drive along and set traps in cattail runs.

[Scott K]

I have brought this up before, why dont some of you that are well knowledged enlighten those of us who arent knowledgable on trapping. Instead of pointing fingers back and forth, why not educate us of good practices. And teach some folks on here that may trap, but dont know the best ways, or safest ways to go about it. I have learned some from following this post from the beggining, but lets here form the pros some good ethics of trapping. Just my .02. I think this post would be better off if it was to inform the less informed! Then to b!*ch back and forth, that isnt going to get any where!

[gorrilla]

4 wandering eyes, while I debate a lot on this topic weekly, I don't ever claim to be a pro...

If your a beginner though, I like your way of thinking. I do think it would be best suited for another post. I suggest you pose some questions when ever you like in the Trapping Forum. Just to let you know lots of things are best learned from eyewitness and hands on experience. I would recommend you sign up for some educational courses and attend trapping conventions. They are advertised in FurFish&Game if nothing else. One of the best ways is to network at these places and find an experience trapper in your area and ask if he'll show a greenhorn what he needs to know. You'll be surprised how much you can learn.

[walleye101]

Quote:

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Its a shame because its one of the few spots I've seen lately where trappers could enlighten a few people that the "public" woods is for everybody not just bird hunters with dogs. If someone has a dog and knows how to properly hunt and supervise it, no problem. Likewise, if a trapper owns a body grip trap and uses common sense in placing it, no problem.

It seems this

HSOforum

if filled with many avid smart fishermen, but often I think the lack of woodmanship and arrogance of some makes it hard to talk about hunting or trapping on here...

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Here is your chance gorrila to do some educating to those of us with a lack of woodsmanship. Appearantly I have spent too much time fishing, so please enlighten me.

So for example: I have a pack of 2-3 rabbit hounds that I wish to hunt on "public woods" during open rabbit season. Bobcat season is also open so there can be baited 220 cubbies set most anywhere that I chose to hunt since cats and rabbits frequent the same habitats. Please enlighten me on the "proper way to hunt and supervise my pack of beagles" in this situation so we have "no problem".

[walleye101]

Here is another example. There is a nice piece of riverbottom along the Blue Earth River. A couple hundred acres of mixed hardwoods and small patches of corn. All private land and full of coon. I've done the groundwork securing permission from the various landowners and confirming no one has permission to trap thier property. Only problem is a township road snakes though the middle of the property, a real magnet for bridge trappers setting off the road right-of-way. Enlighten me on how I "properly hunt and control" a couple of valuable coonhounds to be able to hunt the private land I have permission to hunt without risking a lethal encounter in a baited cubbie legally set right off the road?

[gorrilla]

walleye 101, I'll fall for your baiting taunt and waste my time typing a response.

I'm guessing your close minded enough that any effort to get along would be wasted on you anyway, but here it goes...

As far as the rabbit hounds go. Believe it or not, I'd have a suggestion I'm sure your not going to like, but maybe during the relatively short duration on bobcat season (in comparison to rabbit season) you would be wise to hunt only private land or public land you know intimately and are able to observe any comings or goings of potential trappers such as landlocked, etc. As any hound guy will tell you, these breeds often have higher risks of injury due to the distance between handler and dog.

By the way, I never claimed sharing public land meant any one person could be totally happy letting everyone do what they feel they have a right to do on it. Just ask many of us bowhunters who get this feeling of public land seemingly "ruined" on a yearly basis when all the gun hunters show up(don't worry, I gun hunt too).

Doesn't a rabbit hunter on public land need a little bit of smarts, responsibility, and calendar sense too since he can't predict what he is going to encounter if he doesn't exclusively own a property.

As far as the Blue Earth River example goes, maybe you only understand sarcasm judging from your post, but I'm sure most guys know according to the websight rules, that won't get me anywhere... So here it goes. I'm not saying if you hunt coonhounds on private land where there are not supposed to be traps you should have to worry about them. As far as road and bridge trappers go, I'm not sure exactly on how each situation pans out legally on this road. Is there public water, public right of way, ???, or what. If you don't trust being able to keep your dogs onto the "safe" private ground then maybe you never thought of finding a more remote setting where this isn't as likely to happen??? I know in this day and age it hard to find more properties like that, but why do most hound guys buy the dog first and worry about the property later? I don't buy turkey or deer equipment without first having good property to hunt...

Personally road trapping wasn't my cup of tea back when I did trap. I didn't like the thought of my expensive traps(especially 220 body grips) being set within close proximity to potentially prying eyes where my vehicle could be spotted, sets harrassed, or traps and catch stolen. I certainly took the effort to secure permission on the land I set my trap if it was private.

Once again, if a person isn't getting permission to set on private land and they do it anyway, they are not a trapper. DON'T DO TRAPPERS A DISSERVICE BY LABELING THEM AS SUCH (not directed at you walley101). They're more like a tresspasser or a poacher.

Back to the coonhound scenario though, IMO its getting more and more difficult to find a good and dare I say legal situation to run coon hounds nowadays. Most hound guys don't talk about it except amongst themselves, but how do you keep your dogs from crossing borders where permission isn't granted??? Like my deer woods where the local deer herd has had enough stresses dodging anything from snowstorms, to poachers, to wolves. And now a bunch of hounds comes barreling through because their owner can't keep them on the two forties he's got permission on in "his" section. Most hound guys don't get much grief over that though since it happens after dark and nobody knows right? It used to be in the old days in rural areas landowners would look the other way since it was the local kid or neighbor, but now its the hound clubs having unofficial contests and 6 pickups surrounding sections and running their hounds on land "accidentally" to get the coons or coyotes going onto the land they can harvest them on.

For the record, I previously stated I thought trappers could get by with MORE EDUCATION, but I guess you don't need any.