Scopes on Muzzle loaders

[Covey]

Has anyone heard if scopes are going to be legal for the muzzle loading season? If so will we be able to use magnified scopes?

[Whoaru99]

Are going to be? They are not now during ML season, not sure why that would change, but who knows??

If you have eye problems that makes using open sights difficult or impossible, you can get a permit/waiver to use a scope, etc.

[Borch]

I know there has been some talk of allowing scopes during muzzleloader the past two years. Thus far that's all it's been, just talk.

I really wish they'd add a primitive arms season concurrently with the archery season with flintlocks and round patched balls only. That way hunters could also wear frontierman clothing. Now that would be fun!

[DooWap]

Well I'd shy away from the buckskins, can you get that stuff in blaze orange?

[mtheis]

Two seasons ago I took my nephew out to the family property where he went deer hunting for the first time. He did go to firearm instruction and we had rehearsed many times proper shot placement on the animal. When the opportunity presented itself for him to shoot a large doe at about 75yrds he told me the front site covered nearly the front of the animal and it was very difficult for him to shoot it in the front shoulder like we talked about. He hit the deer more back than we wanted and fortunately we waited a couple of hours before we went searching for the animal.

This is the biggest reason I know for allowing scope use during the muzzleloader season. It allows more exact bullet placement that results in less lost deer, and allows for more humane kills. Shouldn't that be the purpose of every shot we take?

If I hear another story of keeping muzzleloading "pure" and "authentic" then I propose during the bow hunting season we make all hunters use traditional bows and force them to shoot instinctively with no sights.

[B@ssDoctor]

Quote"When the opportunity presented itself for him to shoot a large doe at about 75yrds he told me the front site covered nearly the front of the animal and it was very difficult for him to shoot it in the front shoulder like we talked about."

I agree that taking a shot at 75 yards w/a scope would be more accurate and you could potentially hit your money spot. The problem is, that there are hunters out there that would like to take that 200/300 yard shot w/the muzzle loader and a scope would only help them do that.

The purpose of the muzzloading season is to provide hunters with a "traditional" or "authentic" means of hunting. Traditional would mean hunting with the items that Borch mentioned.

If your wish is to use a scope on an inline and you are worried about shot placement, use your muzzleloader/scope during rifle season.

Who knows if you nephews shot encountered some unexpected wind or a twig. If the shot was different than he expected, he should try target practice at that distance. If uncomfortable w/shot placement and it doesn't act like he expects, don't shoot @ 75.

[Gofishleech]

I agree we should be able to use scopes on MLs. Just for the reason you mentined,,,better shot placement and a better chance of not wounding the animal.

[mtheis]

Tell me where in the regulations or any other document produced by the Minnesota DNR where it says Muzzleloading Season is for those who prefer "traditional methods" or wish to use "authentic means"? I didn't know the legislature created this season for that. Didn't they use scopes on black-powder rifles way back in the mid 1800's? The use of scopes is not any less traditional than muzzleloading rifles themselves!

P.S. The shot my nephew took bordered an open field with an unlimited view. Get a target about 8" in diameter. Walk out 75yds, and now with your muzzleloading rifle using iron sights see how much of that target is visible for precise shot placement. This is a good test for all who prefer the rules not change. Could you hit it? Honestly?

[B@ssDoctor]

I "honestly" couldn't tell you unless I tried. Sound like you know it is an impossible shot and you should relay that information to your nephew.

I see your point that you want a scope and can understand why you would want a good shot placement. I just don't belive in changing the rules just because it didn't work out.

FYI...The state seal created in 1861 shows a muzzleloader w/out a scope. If you want "authentic" or "traditional" look up Minnesota statute 1.135 and see what the muzzloader stands for or just take a look a close look at our state seal.

[JDM]

The "traditionalists" drive me crazy with their thinking that they are somehow better than a guy with an inline. Why do you really care if there is a scope or not (or an inline, for that matter)? If the inline gun will shoot 200 yards, then what is the problem? If you want that kind of performance, they go buy one. There is a lot of things I would like to experience from 150 years ago, but it isn't going to happen. Me - I don't have a problem with your traditional equipment. If that is what you want to use, have at it. Just don't criticize someones choice to use better technology when it is well within the law.

The state law banning scopes does nothing but impede the ability of the hunter to make an accurate, clean, humane kill shot. It is a silly law and it is shortsided. I am not defending anyone's poor judgment beyond what their equipment can do, nor the limits of their shooting ability. Regardless of what you use in the outdoors, it is your responsibility to know your limitations.

I am sure the bowhunters would love to have that season happen. All the ones I know are already singing the blues about expanded firearm / muzzloader opportunities running concurrently with the bow season.

[Whoaru99]

I think scopes should not be allowed for reason already given. Just as many will use them to take longer than practical shots as will hunters trying to have better placement.

The rule of the "game" is not to shoot beyond ones capacity/comfort level, isn't it?

If they are going to allow scopes, then why the ban on smokeless powder for ML? I can use the exact same reason there, better accuracy and more humane kill.

[lawdog]

Quote:

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The shot my nephew took bordered an open field with an unlimited view. Get a target about 8" in diameter. Walk out 75yds, and now with your muzzleloading rifle using iron sights see how much of that target is visible for precise shot placement. This is a good test for all who prefer the rules not change. Could you hit it? Honestly?

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If I couldn't hit that, then I wouldn't take the shot at the deer. You have to know your effective range and if its not 75 yards where that doe is, too bad. Get the deer closer or don't shoot at it... The answer isn't always give people more technology to make it easier. If they allow everything in the muzzleloader season, it wouldn't get its own 16 day season. You want the muzzleloader season, you give up the glass and the smokeless powder and you accept your limited range and need to get the animal in closer. Plain and simple.

[B@ssDoctor]

Perfectly put. Period.

Next thing will be a 5 shot clip for the muzzleloader

[Borch]

Quote:

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I am sure the bowhunters would love to have that season happen. All the ones I know are already singing the blues about expanded firearm / muzzloader opportunities running concurrently with the bow season.

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Really how many folks do you think would go through the trouble of utilizing a flintlock, black powder and a round patched ball? Only the most dedicated muzzleloader would bother trying to take deer this way. It's hard to do. I'd be willing to bet there aren't 1,000 hunters in MN using this weapon during the muzzleloader season. Bowhunters would be much more likely to encounter a grouse or squirrel hunter than one carrying a flintlock.

Bowhunters for the most part are a dedicated hard hunting group. I know several other states are able to pull off the early season traditional hunts. With a season that's 2 1/2 months long there's bound to be seasons that overlap.

As far as the scoped muzzleloader goes I use one during the general rifle season. For me it's more about the hunt than the kill these days. Memories are what it's all about.

Again just my .02

[ScoutII]

Black powder substitutes should be BAND according to what I am hearing here also. It has been shown that black powder substitutes contain some of the same components that Nitro powders have in them. So really there is not much out there that complies with what you or B@ssDoctor would like to see.

Unless your idea why smokeless powder should be band is different from what I am reading? I believe smokeless powder in itself is not an addvantage unless you beaf-up your weapon or use projectiles that allow you to get RIFLE like performance.

I think you guys know that if you Overcharge a sabbot it will not fly straight, so putty nitro powder behind the sabbot means you use less powder to get a GOOD shot.

No advantage other than a cleaner running gun.

My thought on muzzleloader season is that we are given an opportunity to hunt deer with a limited range, single shot weapon. Otherwise, why were in-line muzzleloaders even allowed?

[Wolfpaak]

I use a traditional muzzleloader. I use it because of the limits it puts into the hunt as stated before. I started bow hunting for the same reasons.

When MN let Muzzleloaders have our own season they set it up with the limitations of the weapon in mind, Inlines were not thought of because us "traditionalists" were the ones lobbying for the season.

My opinion on splitting the ML season into "Traditional" and Inlines with scopes is, it would be nice, but not necessary.

To allow Scopes on ML's, go ahead. I won't put one on.

I am not saying you have to hunt MY way, and I don't have to hunt YOUR way.

I am just thankful to have the oportunity to be able to go out and hunt every year, that we have enough game to chase, and we can do it in any fashion WE CHOOSE!

My Grandpa used to tell me that "opinions are like bellybuttons, everyone has one!" Heres mine.

Kenny

[metrojoe]

I really don't understand what the issue is here. The opportunity already exists for hunters to carry a scoped muzzleloader. It's your choice.

I don’t buy the “more humane kills” theory. It’s possible to make humane kills with a non scoped muzzleloader. You just have to accept the limitations of the equipment.

[B@ssDoctor]

Scout: I was not implying to ban the current exceptions for the ML season. I do not have a problem with in-lines or smokeless powder, I just don't agree with changing the current laws to provoke more flexibity during the season.

Borch: I agree with you theory on hunting (about the hunt not the kill). The challenge/memories are what it is all about. I do not think anyone can disagree that bowhunters are out there for those reasons. Why would we put so much time and effort into it, if we could just wait another 1.5 months and pop one with the slug.

[Mr Special]

Ditto,

I totally agree. I haven't had the chance to MZ yet, but know quite a few people that do. But just like bowhunters "i.e. Myself", it's the more challenging hunt that attracts them the most.

Just my 0.02

[JDM]

This whole discussion is about 1000 guys in a state this size? If that is truly the case, why are we even having this discussion? Give the 1000 guys their season, but don't criticize those of us who want to legally hunt the way we want and would like the opportunity to use a scope. In the end, regardless of what equipment is used, the majority of us are in it for the experience, not the kill. That being said, when I do want to harvest an animal like a deer, a scope gives me my best chance to do it most effectively. I have shot plenty of deer with and without scopes, so from a personal level, I know the difference.

I also think that if they spilt the season, you would have a lot more people buying and using primitive equipment just to have the opportunity to participate, much in the same way that the all season license has increased participation in the current muzzleloader season. Side note - as much as I enjoy the current muzzleloader season, I would not give up the regular firearms season for it due to the social and family traditions associated with it.

[westb]

Quote:

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I think scopes should not be allowed for reason already given. Just as many will use them to take longer than practical shots as will hunters trying to have better placement.

The rule of the "game" is not to shoot beyond ones capacity/comfort level, isn't it?

If they are going to allow scopes, then why the ban on smokeless powder for ML? I can use the exact same reason there, better accuracy and more humane kill.

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Do you honestly think that there isn't people out there with scoped rifles that are taking longer shots than are practical. Why are people blaming mz hunters for taking to long of shots with scopes when they aren't allowed to even use them? My father in law would love to hunt the regular firearms season and use a scope on his rifle but he works six days a week until thanksgiving so this doesn't allow him to do so. The only season he can hunt is mz. He eyesight isn't the best and he has a permit to use a non magnifing scope. But shouldn't he be allowed to use a magnifing scope just like regular firearms hunters? I think that it is kind of senseless to offer an inline mz loader and not be able to use a scope on it. Kinda like having a corvette on the autoban and only driving 55.

[metrojoe]

If you want to use a muzzleloader with a powered scope they already have a season for you. It's called “Firearm Season”

[Covey]

I didn't mean to start a debate. Honestly I'm on the fence for this issue. I just heard from a friend that it was going to be legal next year, and figured someone reading this forum would know if it was true or not.

[westb]

Quote:

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If you want to use a muzzleloader with a powered scope they already have a season for you. It's called “Firearm Season”

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Did you read my post? I wasn't saying that I cant hunt the "firearms season". My father in law isn't able to because of work. I just think that in special circumstances,like people with bad eyesight,they should be able to use a magnified scope during the mz loader season. I do hunt the firearms season and do just fine. I hunt the mz season and I do just fine without a scope but why shouldn't we be able to use scopes? Bowhunters have a four month season and are allowed to maximize their weapons capabilities (compound bows,overdraws,fiber optic sights,realeases) why not scopes on muzzleloaders?

[metrojoe]

Well, if your talking about allowing people with some sort of "disability" and I'm using the term loosely, I have no problem with that, but that is a different argument. In fact it's one that I would be glad to support in any way I could. That is no different than allowing people with certain disabilities to use a cross bow during archery season. What I really don’t want to see is the muzzleloader season becoming an extended firearm season. . My argument is the opportunity is already available. Why should the muzzleloader season be changed?