Elec. wiring question

[Barony]

We are doing a little home improvement and the wife requested an outlet on the front porch, so I put in a box and drilled a hole through the sill plate into the basement where I knew there was a box I could bump into very easily. I installed the GFI outside, zipped the siding back up and proceeded to move inside to complete the wiring when I noticed that the box was wired w/ 14-2 wire. I ran 12-2 wire into the house from the outside outlet. Can I bump into a 14-2 outlet with 12-2? Should I replace the 12-2 w/ 14-2? Guess I need a little advice/help before I proceed.

[18 inch Crappie]

12-2 is fine, unles your are running long runs or need a high amp circut. The 12 will handle more curent but for what your going to use it for I would not worry about it. Unless your going to put up 1,000,000 christmas lights out side

[Bobby Bass]

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12-2 is fine, unless your are running long runs or need a high amp circuit. The 14 will handle more current but for what your going to use it for

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other way around the 12-2 will handle more current then the 14-2 should not be a problem as long as your GFI is not rated for more then 15 amps which is what a 14-2 circuit is rated to handle. ( I am not an electrician but have done a fair amount of wiring)

[Barony]

The GFI is 15 amp and so is the breaker. After thinking about it, I should be fine. The run is only about 5 feet. Thanks for the help guys. I overeacted instead of thinking it over. I'll wire tomorrow when I can't work outside (which should be around 10 AM).

[fishermn]

From a load carrying standpoint you are fine, as said above the 12-2 is larger and can carry more current.

However, doing this is a violation of the electrical code. Specifically, you cannot have a larger wire at the end of a run than you do at the start. Personally I suggest replacing the 12-2 with 14-2.

[JollyT]

Yup, wire is just like hooks!

Bigger number smaller hook or wire. We fishermen should be able to remember that!!!

[PierBridge]

Replace with 14-2.

[bigb56303]

hey fishermn were in the code book does it say you cant do that? i dont have mine handy, but as long as he runs 15 amp outlet and breaker he is perfectly leagal, you cant have a 20 amp outlet on 14/2 but the other way is fine 12/2 isnt necessary but is fine

[BobT]

First, in Minnesota it is not illegal to do the wiring in his own home however it is state law that the work is inspected to be sure it is done safely and correctly. I highly recommend that you have that inspection done. There are many things to consider today even when it comes to just adding a receptacle. Secondly, there is no code that I am aware of that would prohibit using the 12ga wire on a 15A circuit. Fact is, there are times when it is required. Just DO NOT replace the 15A circuit breaker/fuse with a 20A as this would not only be a violation but would be inviting a fire hazard!

Again, I can't stress enough the importance of having your work inspected. It doesn't cost that much and it could save your life. At the very least, in some situations if a fire should occur as a result of this work and it can be determined that it was not inspected, your insurance company may not cover your loss. Would it be worth the small inspection fee for this risk?

Bob

[Barony]

So what I'm seeing is 1) leave the breaker alone (which I have no intention of changing) and 2) use a 15 amp GFI (which I am), I will be fine.

[SteveWilson]

What does the electrical inspector for your area say? He's the final authority as to what is acceptable or not. If he thinks 12-2 is fine then it's fine, if he tells you to pull it out and put in 14-2 then that's what you'll do. You don't have a choice in this, you must get an electrical inspection for the work you did, so go pull the permit and spend the $15 (IIRC that's what 1 circuit will cost you).

For more information check out this handy Minnesota Homeowner Electrical pamphlet http://www.electricity.state.mn.us/Ele_insp/Insp_bul/H_owner/index.pdf

[fishermn]

Well, if you all are interested I can certainly look it up in the code when I get back to work in a couple weeks. But I do assure you that you should not use larger wire at the end of a run than the wire that is the main supply to the branch circuit. Check it out with your local inspector if you dont believe me. Also, make sure to have your work inspected!

[JohnMickish]

From what I am seeing here I believe this meets the legality of the code but not the intent.

210.8(A)(3) is usa a GFCI outdoors. Done

210.52(E) is it must be installed within 6.5 feet of grade.

406.8(A) states that all receptacles in damp or wet locations (outdoors) shall (must) have a weatherproof enclosure for the receptacle when the cover is closed. I do not do residential work so I am not familiar with Minnesota's requirements for an in-use cover. Anybody have a code article for this?

210.19(A)(1) states that the branch circuit conductors shall have an ampacity not less than the maximum load to be served. That is covered because 20 is greater than 15.

Now the tricky part, the 12AWG tapped into a 14AWG 15 amp circuit. This probably falls under the tap rules of 240.21. I'm not an inspector but in my opinion this meets the requirements of 240.21 and 240.20(A). I say probably because it's not that cut and dried.

While I do say it's probably legal it's not right and I'm sure no inpector would approve it since they have the authority to overrule code book issues. The problem is when the next guys comes in and opens the box and sees a 12 ga. wire and thinks he has a 20 amp circuit and builds off of that when in reality he has a 15 amp circuit.

Fishermn, if you have a code article stating you can't have a larger wire at the end of a circuit please pass it on.

PLEASE READ

A note to people doing your own electrical work. There are many, many codes covering how things get done. If you are not aware of them please either find out the right way to do things or hire someone to do it for you. These codes aren't there to make life difficult, they are there to protect you, your family and the next guy working on the system. Remember, these codes are all writen in blood, meaning someone has been hurt or killed because of things done wrong so they make rules to make sure things get done right. Electricity is nothing to be taken lightly or for granted. You can't see it or hear it, and if you feel it it could be the last thing you feel.

[Barony]

Earlier today, I did replace the 12-2 that I originally ran to my outside GFI w/ 14-2 as suggested by many. Here's another question that I have. In my service box, I have a 10 amp breaker that this line is on. My GFI is a 15. Should I replace the GFI w/ a 10 amp too?

[SteveWilson]

Call the Electrical Inspector for your area. Most of them have office hours (usually very early in the morning) where you can ask them question such as you pose. Since the GCFI is looking for voltage to ground and isn't designed to protect the wiring then I think you should be good to go. A 10A circuit though, hmmmmm.

[JohnMickish]

Is that a 10 amp breaker or fuse?

[bigb56303]

i dont know tht i have ever seen a 10 amp breaker? if its a fuse or a breaker just change that out to a 15amp since that is what everything elese is rated for and you should be all set, i would however check to see what you all have on that because a 10 amp fuse or breaker isnt sufficient for outlets etc, and may cause problems with tripping/blowing depending on what you are plugging it to it, also like others have said you should get it inspected to make sure it is all safe, if you dont and have a fire etc you may not get the insurace to cover any loses, wiring may seem simple and for the most part it is but there are many code issues that are there to make it safe dont take any chances and pay the $ to cover your butt

[Barony]

My bad guys. Guess the heat got to me when I was looking at my box. It's a 15 amp breaker at the box, so everythings all taken care of. Thanks for all the help and advice. I have a buddy who is an electrician coming over sometime this week to take a peek.

[Whoaru99]

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406.8(A) states that all receptacles in damp or wet locations (outdoors) shall (must) have a weatherproof enclosure for the receptacle when the cover is closed. I do not do residential work so I am not familiar with Minnesota's requirements for an in-use cover. Anybody have a code article for this?

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Might be 406.8(...

[BobT]

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no inpector would approve it since they have the authority to overrule code

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I don't know where you get this information from but that is absolutely false! An electrical inspector DOES NOT have the right to over-rule the code adopted by the AHJ! Their responsibility is to inspect the project for compliance to the adopted codes but they are not authorized to define code. Any time an inspector makes a ruling that is questionable, he can be called on the ruling to cite the code in question. An inspector is human and how he/she interprets code may be different but the AHJ has final authority.

Yes. I would also like to see the code that forbids the use of 12ga wire on a 15A circuit. I bet you will not find it. After all, how would you then handle long circuit runs where voltage drop might require upsizing the wire? This wouldn't be possible. The opposite would be true that you are not allowed to use 14ga wire on a 20A circuit although there are times when this too is allowed.

Regarding your statement about a future "electrician" mistaking the 15A circuit for a 20A because they see 12ga wire in the receptacle box. THIS IS PRECISELY why unqualified persons should not do their own work. Any qualified electrician would not fall victim to this oversight! If you are an electrician that assumes the existence of 12ga wire means 20A circuit, I will guarantee I will never hire you.

Your final statement is good and should be taken very seriously.

Bob

[bigb56303]

well put bobt there is no such wording in the code stating you cant do what he was doing, as long as your wire is sufficient for the load being used, and as you stated, with calculating voltage drop you have to upgrade, and your statement about "qualified" electrician is right on as well there is a reason that mn electrical test is so strict and you must have one to do work in mn to keep things safe

well put

[JohnMickish]

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406.8(A) states that all receptacles in damp or wet locations (outdoors) shall (must) have a weatherproof enclosure for the receptacle when the cover is closed. I do not do residential work so I am not familiar with Minnesota's requirements for an in-use cover. Anybody have a code article for this?

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Might be 406.8(...

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My bad, 406.(A) is damp, not wet.

[JohnMickish]

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no inpector would approve it since they have the authority to overrule code

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I don't know where you get this information from but that is absolutely false! An electrical inspector DOES NOT have the right to over-rule the code adopted by the AHJ! Their responsibility is to inspect the project for compliance to the adopted codes but they are not authorized to define code. Any time an inspector makes a ruling that is questionable, he can be called on the ruling to cite the code in question. An inspector is human and how he/she interprets code may be different but the AHJ has final authority.

Yes. I would also like to see the code that forbids the use of 12ga wire on a 15A circuit. I bet you will not find it. After all, how would you then handle long circuit runs where voltage drop might require upsizing the wire? This wouldn't be possible. The opposite would be true that you are not allowed to use 14ga wire on a 20A circuit although there are times when this too is allowed.

Regarding your statement about a future "electrician" mistaking the 15A circuit for a 20A because they see 12ga wire in the receptacle box. THIS IS PRECISELY why unqualified persons should not do their own work. Any qualified electrician would not fall victim to this oversight! If you are an electrician that assumes the existence of 12ga wire means 20A circuit, I will guarantee I will never hire you.

I didn't say "future electrician", I said "the next guy" and that leaves it pretty wide open to include the handy neighbor to the unlicsensed electrician to the homeowner. Your right, now good electician would fall for that but at the same time if you quote the guy X amount to add on to it your sure not going to pay me the time it takes to trace it back. I don't know where you work but in the world I work in the AHJ IS the inspector and has the right to make changes that go above and beyond the code. And that is why I wouldn't work for you. We have an issue right now at work involving a 1600 amp plug in bus duct in a return air space with two 150 amp disconnects. It's been a big go-around between the engineers, facitility inspector and the state inspector (AHJ). Guess who has the overruling authority.

Check out 90.4, paragraph 2: "By special permission, the athority having jurisdiction may waive specific requirements in the code or permit alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and mainaining effective safty."

Your final statement is good and should be taken very seriously.

Bob

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[BobT]

The "inspector" is NOT the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). The inspector is hired by the AHJ and does have a supervisor. Any time the inspector makes a call that is questionable you have the legal right and obligation to call it into question. This is important because we cannot allow any one individual this kind of power.

The AHJ is typically our elected officials such as our state congress, county commissioners, township board, city board and many times they may appoint a committee or board to handle this matter but they do not give this authority to any one individual. To do so would be a ridiculous abuse of authority.

In Minnesota the inspectors are hired by the State

Board of Electricity. The inspectors refer to the NEC, among other codes, which have been adopted by the State of Minnesota (AHJ). There are local jurisdictions that also may add to these codes such as city or county government bodies but I repeat, the state inspector is hired only to interpret the codes to the best of his/her ability, that is all.

Bob

[Macgyver55]

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Check out 90.4, paragraph 2: "By special permission, the authority having jurisdiction may waive specific requirements in the code or permit alternative methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and mainaining effective safty."

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Generally speaking, waiving a specific requirement means relaxing a code... not making it tougher than the code's intent. (as long as it remains safe)

It also says he may "permit alternative methods". This doesn't grant him authority to create more stringent methods than the code dictates, only to allow other methods of doing it without compromising safety.

[JohnMickish]

I don't want to argue with you guys but there is an electrical inspector that works for the CITY of Minneapolis that requires each lay in light in places of assembly to have 4 support wires attached to it. Going above and beyond the 2 that are required by the NFPA and piggybacked by the NEC. Just one example to prove a point. There is another guy that wants to see the entire ground wire in stitchgear covered in green tape. I mean from top to bottom. Way beyond "permanently marked", and a guy could argue the point and you might win the battle but I be willing to be you would lose the war.

Look up "AHJ" in article 100. It can be a number of people from the organization, office or indivedual responsible for approving equipment, materials, an installation or a process. On the jobs I work on in the areas I work in the AHJ has allways been either a city employee or a state contracted employee. All of which are great guys and have given me no trouble.