Idea for a new product

[dirtking]

So I have this million $$$ idea for a new or changed fishing product - how would a guy go about selling it - would a guy need to go get a patent...

[Log Hopper]

The first thing you want to do is document your invention. Make drawings, descriptions and how it will improve the market you are after. Date and sign all documentation. It also helps to have someone else sign and date it. If you are worried about them stealing it, have them sign a waiver. Some ideas are patentable some are not, best would be to talk to a patent lawyer, which of course is expensive but should get done right. It might be a good idea to search similiar patents which can be found at the US Patent & Trademark Office webpage.

Good Luck

[Farley]

dirtking,

Dont even bother, I've already seen a clip on beer holder/ashtray for your fishtrap.

Rice may know a little about it, they have patents on thier trailers, but I think they won their patents at a show so your're probably better off talkin to a patent lawyer like said above.

[dirtking]

Farley too funny Its a cheap little thing I thought of up at LOTW while having a few pops and catching no fish - Told the old man about it and he said "wow I'd buy that" The other guys in the fish house approved as well - but I'm thinking the alcohol made them forget all about it. Of course not looking to spend a lot of $$$ but maybe a guy has to spend $$$ to make $$$.

[Mudcat21]

Look at the US Patent HSOforum to see if there is a patent on your idea. I've had many of good ideas only to be shot down when I find a patent out there already.

[Farley]

Whatever it is, I guess you could make it and try and sell it to your buds first, or at least let them try it out, and if they want more or their buds want more, there is the start of your consumer base, all the while obtaining any patents or documentation you need so if the idea does take off, you are safe from any of us , I mean any one trying to beat you to the chase.

Does this thing require any machining or fabrication? I can help you out there if it does.

[marine_man]

There have been a lot of threads about patents here on FM... here are a couple of them:

New Product Development

Patent Information for an Innovation

Putting Equipment Ideas to Use

marine_man

[WigglinMyWorm]

You could always do whats called a poor mans patent.....put all your drawings and ideas in a sealed envelope and send it to yourself...NEVER OPEN IT!!!! Since it has a government stamp on it that is dated it will show when your idea was thought up.....gives you a little time to get a real patent.....and yes a poor mans patent does stand up in court.

[katoguy]

HuH? How does that show when the idea was thought up? You, dirtking, or I could have thought of it years prior...

Am I missing something?

[smmurphy]

The only thing that is missing is that you need to mail it to yourself either registered mail or certified mail so that there is a dated post office reciept, dated post mark, and dated certified/registered notice - and that all 3 dates match. This is used to establish the "point-in-time" that you came up with your idea. If someone uses (steals?) your idea, and if you can afford an attorny, and have the time and money for the court procedings this sealed, certified document can be used for your "point-in-time" proof of ownership of the idea.

[WigglinMyWorm]

When you send it to yourself the postoffice stamps it with their machine the date in which it was sent....this will be the proof you need to show when you had the idea documented...you will win in court when it is a he said/ she said argument.

[WigglinMyWorm]

Very well put SMMURPHY.....that was what i was trying to say but my brain wasn't connecting with my typing finger.

[brittman]

How would anyone prove what was placed inside the envelope? You could send a registered and unsealed letter to yourself today and use it as "proof" 5 years from now. Nope that will not work.

There are two methods that would / should stand in the court of law. This is what most laboratories in corporations use.

1) have a witness sign and date the report with the idea

2) have a notary notarize the document that contains the idea. Banks typically have a notary.

That said - once you document the idea you need to have a patent agent or patent lawyer file your Disclosure. Some companies will do this for a smaller fee and the US government filing fees, but will want a percentage of your future profits.

Then once the patent is awarded - you must show diligence in protecting it. If you see a violation - you must confront them and demand they stop or you could license them. Failure to diligently protect your patent results in the it being lost.

In the arena of sporting goods - it is the people with marketing skills - not the inventors - that earn a living.

[WigglinMyWorm]

A poor mans patent DOES stand up in a court of law... a buddy of mine used it and later went to court against lysle tool company and won.....the post office will not (should not) deliver an open letter.

[toonfish]

But just because you had the idea doesn't mean anything does it??? You actually have to put it into action.....Because you can't proove that someone else doesn't have the exact same idea....If you seal the envelope and don't do anything for 5 years and in the meantime someone has the exact same idea, but puts it into action and makes millions....you can't just open your letter and say give me half your money can you ????....The only way is if someone steals an idea that you have legal rights to.....get a lawyer...But if this poor mans thing does hold up, I should stuff an envelope a day until one of my ideas is finished by someone else and then just open up my letter and try to collect.

[H20fowlr]

Toon Fish, It is first Idea(invent)not first to manufacture. Look at the guy who came up with intermittant wipers. All of the big three ended up paying him a royalty after he won in court proving he was first to invent, not manufacture. This is why the "poor man's" patent, as it is called here, does work. It shows proof of when the idea was documented. This proof puts the burden on anyone manufacturing or claiming invention rights to show evidence of documentation prior to what is documented in the envelope. You shouldn't open the envelope without being in front of a judge. There is no need to as you know whats in it, and use it as evidence. Secondly, if you have an attorney, copy them. This way your documents cannot be used in discovery as you would claim attorney client privelages and this was part of your defense. This helps level the field against any large corporation with lots of resources against you.

[student]

I too have an idea for a new product. My question is now that I have taken the steps to create a paper trail that "protects" me, is it safe to begin selling the item. Or is it best to wait until I achieve pat. pending status? I would like to make a little money before what little ice we have melts.

[smmurphy]

Britt,

The proof of what is inside the envelope is that it must still be sealed when opened for the court.

[brittman]

I assume your buddy actually had a US patent - otherwise the "idea" has little value. Yet sometimes court cases are settled to avoid poor press.

Without a US patent - I really doubt this poor man's patent works very often. It is more likely folklore than fact. Although some individuals may make some $$ when a company decides to settle rather than fight ...

Diligence is the key word in inventions. You must be diligent in taking your idea into a disclosure and then into a US patent. Failing to do so results in loss of "your" invention. You must also be diligent in taking your invention to production and protecting it when you see violations or infringement. Stand and watch ... you lose.

Using a notary is much simpler than mailing.

Again marketing is the key to financial success in outdoor products. A quick patent search of Dave Gentz shows he does not have a single US patent - yet his innovations have revolutionized ice fishing and likely has made him financially secure

- marketing ....

Let's also address the flip-side - before you go selling a product based on your new idea - you better make sure no one else has patented the idea.

[Ice Cold]

Quote:

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I too have an idea for a new product. My question is now that I have taken the steps to create a paper trail that "protects" me, is it safe to begin selling the item. Or is it best to wait until I achieve pat. pending status? I would like to make a little money before what little ice we have melts.

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Keep in mind that even if you have this so-called paper trail, you need to be careful about any sale. There are provisions in the patent code that make an invention unpatentable one year after the invention has been put on-sale or used in a publicly informing way. Marketing of the product usually will trigger the year period. There a some exception to this rule but it is a good thing to keep in mind.

Also, as for sitting and doing nothing on your invention. If someone else comes up with the same idea and tries to patent it, you will not be able to collect money from them. If you can prove that you invented the product before them it is just a bar to them getting a patent. Until you have a patent you have no rights to exclude other from using the technology. And again, if you do not apply for a patent within 1 year of the second inventors first publicly informing use or sale of the product, you will also be barred from being granted a patent. The invention just becomes public knowledge that one cannot exclude anyone from using.

[brittman]

I believe the rule is / was you must apply for a US Patent within one year of selling said product.

Patent codes have been changing lately.

[brittman]

Here is the story on the windshield wiper inventor. Not any easy task ... not really that of a happy a story.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A54564-2005Feb25.html

Accomplished, Frustrated Inventor Dies

By Matt Schudel

Washington Post Staff Writer

Saturday, February 26, 2005; Page B01

At long last, Robert Kearns's battles with the world's automotive giants have come to an end. Kearns, who died Feb. 9, devoted decades of his life to fighting Ford Motor Co., Chrysler Corp. and other carmakers in court, trying to gain the credit he thought he deserved as the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper.

From a basement in Detroit, where he devised his invention, to Gaithersburg, where he moved in the 1970s, Kearns carried his lonely fight all the way to the Supreme Court, one man against the might of the industrial world and a patent system he believed had let him down.

Robert Kearns fought for years to be credited as inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper. (The Washington Post)

By the time he died at 77 at Copper Ridge nursing home in Sykesville, Md., of brain cancer complicated by Alzheimer's disease, Kearns had gained some vindication in the form of $30 million in settlements from Ford and Chrysler, but he never got what he had sought from the beginning.

"I need the money, but that's not what this is about," he told Regardie's magazine in 1990. "I've spent a lifetime on this. This case isn't just a trial. It's about the meaning of Bob Kearns's life."

All he wanted, he often said, was the chance to run a factory with his six children and build his wiper motors, along with a later invention for a windshield wiper that was activated automatically by rainfall. In the end, his courtroom battles cost him his job, his marriage and, at times, his mental health.

Kearns, who had a doctorate in engineering from Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland and had taught engineering for 11 years at Wayne State University in Detroit, was no weekend tinkerer. A native of Gary, Ind., he grew up near the giant Ford plant in River Rouge, Mich., and always thought of the auto company as a place that welcomed someone with ingenuity.

He got his idea on his wedding night in 1953, when a champagne cork struck him in the left eye, which eventually became blind. The blinking of his eye led him to wonder if he could make windshield wipers that worked the same way -- that would move at intervals instead of in a constant back-and-forth motion.

After years of experiments at home and on his cars -- "If it ever rained," his former wife, Phyllis Hall, recalled yesterday, "I had to drop everything and go out with him in the car" -- Kearns believed his invention was ready.

He applied for patents, mounted his wipers on his 1962 Ford Galaxie and drove to Ford's headquarters. Engineers swarmed over his car, at one point sending him out of the workroom, convinced he was activating the wipers with a button in his pocket.

Ford's engineers had been experimenting with vacuum-operated wipers, but Kearns was the first to invent an intermittent wiper with an electric motor. After a while, however, Ford stopped answering his calls, and Kearns was left on his own.

In 1967, he received the first of more than 30 patents for his wipers. In 1969, Ford came out with the first intermittent wiper system in the United States, followed within a few years by the other major manufacturers.

After working as Detroit's commissioner of buildings and safety engineering, Kearns moved to Gaithersburg in 1971 to become principal investigator for highway skid resistance at the old National Bureau of Standards, now the National Institute of Standards and Technology.

In 1976, Kearns's son bought an electric circuit for a Mercedes-Benz intermittent wiper, which Kearns took apart, only to discover it was almost identical to what he'd invented. He had a nervous breakdown soon after.

He boarded a bus, with delusions of riding to Australia and being commissioned by former President Richard M. Nixon to build an electric car. Police picked him up in Tennessee, and his family checked him into the psychiatric ward at Montgomery General Hospital. When he came out after a few weeks, his red hair had turned white.

Earlier in life, Kearns had been a high school cross-country star, an outstanding violinist and a teenage intelligence officer in World War II. But from 1976, his sole focus in life was to battle the auto giants and reclaim his invention.

Kearns filed suit against Ford for patent infringement in 1978, seeking $141 million in damages (a figure eventually raised to $325 million). In all, he filed lawsuits against 26 car manufacturers and other companies.

Kearns supported himself with disability pay after his breakdown and by trading in foreign currencies.

By the early 1980s, his wife had had enough.

"It had become an obsession," recalled Hall, who lives in Arizona. "I told him, 'I can't stand this life.' He said, 'This is my life.' "

[brittman]

He applied for patents, mounted his wipers on his 1962 Ford Galaxie and drove to Ford's headquarters. Engineers swarmed over his car, at one point sending him out of the workroom, convinced he was activating the wipers with a button in his pocket.

Based on this newspapaer article, he did not rely soley on a poor man's patent. He filed US patent applications.

[Ice Cold]

Quote:

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I believe the rule is / was you must apply for a US Patent within one year of selling said product.

Patent codes have been changing lately.

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Reference 35 U.S.C section 102( for the on sale or publicly informing use more than 1 year from filing date bar. This section of the code has not changed in a long time.

[brittman]

Agree this is the same.

Patent length and clock starting point (ie date of issue vs the new route - date of submission). Other things may have changed too.

I have many US patents issued in my name, but have not been active in this area for some time now.