Home Solar/Wind Power

[ThunderLund78]

Wondering if anyone has purchased a home solar generator or wind turbine for supplemental/emergency backup purposes.  There seems to be a lot of options but I'm finding it hard to see if these companies are reputable and in good standing, have good support, offer modular/expandable equipment packages?

Also, can any of these units tie into your main power supply in any way, or are these truly an independent power source that you have to run separate cords out of.  I'm not looking to "get off the grid" but would be interested in having reliable back-up for the essentials and potentially lessening my reliance on the power company.  I'm wondering if anyone has trend any of these units, big or small, and their thoughts.

[delcecchi]

A typical roof top solar thing is tied into the grid, and gets a big subsidy from the government.   In addition, since it feeds excess power back to the grid, the power company pays you for that power.   There are several companies that will be happy to help.  Some have a deal where you lease the equipment and the subsidies and power sold help make the payment.

I don't know how much storage those installations typically have, since they have the power company for backup. 

If you want dependable backup I think a generator is more appropriate.   They can be and should be wired through a special transfer switch to your breaker box.  The transfer switch prevents the voltage from the generator from being fed back to the power line and possibly frying they guy fixing the problem that made the power go out. 

The fancy ones run off propane or natural gas and automatically come on when the power dies. 

Depends on how much you want to spend. And how much concern you have for power outages vrs saving money and the earth.

[leechlake]

I know that one of  my neighbors looked into it and ended up getting a huge generator instead.  I mean the thing is way bigger than a few air conditioners and it's outside his house.  I don't know the particulars, he bought it because his wife had some fear of some sort so I don't want to pry.  In their case it was merely a safety thing of some sort, only reason I post that non answer answer is that he's a practical guy and I'd think he'd have done his homework for their particular situation.

[delcecchi]

I know that one of  my neighbors looked into it and ended up getting a huge generator instead.  I mean the thing is way bigger than a few air conditioners and it's outside his house.  I don't know the particulars, he bought it because his wife had some fear of some sort so I don't want to pry.  In their case it was merely a safety thing of some sort, only reason I post that non answer answer is that he's a practical guy and I'd think he'd have done his homework for their particular situation.

That is the classic.  It sits in the yard and is powered by propane or natural gas.  It comes on automatically if the grid power goes out. 

One example....

http://www.costco.com/.product.100144364.html?cm_sp=RichRelevance-_-itempageVerticalRight-_-CategorySiloedViewCP&cm_vc=itempageVerticalRight|CategorySiloedViewCP

Honeywell 17 kW Automatic Standby Generator

Features:

Includes 200a Service Rated Smart Switch Transfer Switch

Honeywell® 17kW/16kW Automatic Standby Generator – For safety reasons and to ensure adherence to all local, state and federal electrical codes, Honeywell Generators recommends you use an authorized dealer or licensed contractor for installation.

Protect your home and family—everyday, whether you are home or away. Home, family, assets – the things that matter most – remain protected during a power outage with the installation of a Honeywell standby generator. A Honeywell automatic standby generator seamlessly backs up the circuits you choose during a power outage. It automatically starts within seconds of detecting power loss, and runs on the home’s existing natural gas or LP fuel supply.

Standby Generator Features:
PrecisionPower™ ELECTRICAL TECHNOLOGY Superior harmonics and sine wave form produce less than 5% Total Harmonic Distortion for utility quality power. This allows confident operation of sensitive electronic equipment and micro-chip based appliances, such as variable speed HVAC.

SOLID-STATE, FREQUENCY COMPENSATED VOLTAGE REGULATION This state-of-the-art power maximizing regulation system is standard on all Honeywell models. It provides optimized FAST RESPONSE to changing load conditions and MAXIMUM MOTOR STARTING CAPABILITY by electronically torque-matching the surge loads to the engine. Digital voltage regulation at +/- 1%.

SINGLE SOURCE SERVICE RESPONSE from their extensive dealer network provides parts and service knowhow for the entire unit, from the engine to the smallest electronic component.

INNOVATIVE DESIGN AND PROTOTYPE TESTING are key components of their success in “IMPROVING POWER BY DESIGN.” But it doesn’t stop there. Total commitment to component testing, reliability testing, environmental testing, destruction and life testing, plus testing to applicable CSA, NEMA, EGSA, and other standards, allows you to choose Honeywell generators with the confidence that these systems will provide superior performance.

Includes:

• 200a Service Rated Smart Switch Transfer Switch
• PrecisionPower™ Electrical Technology
• Two Line LCD Multilingual Digital Controller (English/Spanish/French/Portuguese)
• Electronic Governor
• External Main Circuit Breaker, System Status & Maintenance Interval LED Indicators
• Flexible Fuel Line Connector
• GFCI Duplex Outlet
• WhisperCheck™ Exercise
• Composite Mounting Pad
• Steel Enclosure
• Natural Gas or LP Gas Operation
• Capability to be installed within 18” (457 mm) of a building
• 3 year limited Warranty
  
   

Specifications: Dimensions (L x W x H):

• 48.3" L x 25.3" W x 28.8" H
• Weight: 471 lb.

Under 4K.  If Momma happy, cheap. 

 

[ThunderLund78]

Thanks Del and LL - I should've just posted in the cooking forum  .  I'm looking for strictly solar or wind - I don't want to be dependent on a limited fuel source should it be a lengthy outage.

[delcecchi]

If your house has natural gas, it is basically an unlimited fuel source, unless maybe some "man made disaster" or something else I can't even think of right now comes along.   (A thousand gallons of propane will make a lot of electricity, as well)

What you want is the full "off grid" solar package, so first thing is to decide what the minimum amount of electricity you need to live.  And what are you going to do for heat?   Do you have a well? 

Just trying to understand what scenario you are considering.   When the blowdown of 99 hit our cabin we were without electricity for around a week.  (down transformer and broken pole).   That was in summer, we cook with propane.   Leeched off neighbor's generator a few hours a day for the well and refrigerator, along with ice in a cooler.  

Here at home and in the winter would be different.   But we have natural gas.  It has never gone out, and I am not sure what would make it go out.  We don't have earthquakes in MN. 

To return to original subject, we probably could get our electricity consumption, in a stress situtation, down to maybe 400 kwHr per month or 15 kwh per day.  So you would need a system that would provide your basic needs on an extended basis in bad weather (like the last few days). 

 

I looked at sizing an off grid solar package at this page chosen at random. 

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar-information/start-here/offgrid-calculator

and it comes to big money.  Tying it into the grid would make it eligible for tax credits and subsidies and help pay for it. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by delcecchi

[ThunderLund78]

This is a a great page to at least establish your needs and understand a solution. Thanks Del! Ideally I'd like to be prepared for all-of-the-above scenarios - yes we have natural gas, no we don't have a well, but it's a goal of my wife and I to try to move out-of-town in a couple of years - maybe even possibly build which is more of why I wanted to know if i could tie a back-up system right into my breaker board -possibly do it from the get go.  Also, if building, perhaps it's easier to absorb the cost by having it all go in with the house.  All pie in the sky at this point but I did want to get ideas on cost vs performance and this page will help me with that.  Thanks again!

[delcecchi]

An 80 amp hour 12 volt battery is about 1 kw-hour.  and costs most of 100 bucks.  

If I were worried about power outages and had natural gas available I would go with the generator in a heart beat. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by delcecchi

[Tom7227]

I wonder how you could get reliable electricity out of either solar or wind sources.  Unless there is some sort of battery storage device I just don't think you can have 'renewable' power 24 hours a day.  Obviously solar is only good while the sun is up.  Wind - does it really blow consistently?  I have read that if you went with both the wind is supposed to provide the power at night - but my experience is that the wind often dies at night.

There are some decent tax incentives for solar now, but I don't know if wind is included.  I guess if I were interested in going off the grid I would got with solar but with some type of battery storage.  I would also include some method of solar heat collection using large water tanks for heat storage.  If that were set up you may be able to greatly reduce your need for heating your home with another source.  Again, I don't know if that would work but it may be something worth checking out.  There's no way you could generate enough electricity using solar or wind electricity to heat a home.

[delcecchi]

I think heat, in Minnesota climate, would require propane, nat gas, or wood for off grid applications. 

The off grid solar installations include battery storage, which adds to the cost of the installation. 

I don't think wind is too practical unless you have a good size chunk of land. 

[ThunderLund78]

They do sell single home wind turbine kits, but again, it's really hard to tell how reputable a lot of these companies are.  Wind would definitely be more supplemental than solar, I think.

[delcecchi]

They do sell single home wind turbine kits, but again, it's really hard to tell how reputable a lot of these companies are.  Wind would definitely be more supplemental than solar, I think.

Big thing with wind is it needs a pretty good tower to work well.   And, being mechanical it makes noise of various types.  So a guy wouldn't want in in a typical back yard....

[Tom7227]

When I mentioned heat from solar I was thinking about a system that ran a liquid over a grid and then into a storage tank.  It used to be a big deal 15-20 years ago.  I have no idea if it is practical or why it seems to have disappeared from view.

I also doubt that it could be the only heat source for the same reason that I don't think solar can be the sole source for electricity.

[delcecchi]

When I mentioned heat from solar I was thinking about a system that ran a liquid over a grid and then into a storage tank.  It used to be a big deal 15-20 years ago.  I have no idea if it is practical or why it seems to have disappeared from view.

I also doubt that it could be the only heat source for the same reason that I don't think solar can be the sole source for electricity.

I think solar water heating is still popular in the warmer sunnier parts of the country.  That is probably the biggest bang for the buck in solar heating. 

[Tom7227]

I am curious.  Does anyone have any idea what a solar system would cost for a seasonal cabin or a home with say 2500 sq feet.  Are there websites that give an idea on how efficient a solar array would be for different parts of the county?  I suspect that there needs to be differing systems for places that have varying amounts of sun - size of battery bank, things like that.

 

Thanks for your time.
Tom

[delcecchi]

I am curious.  Does anyone have any idea what a solar system would cost for a seasonal cabin or a home with say 2500 sq feet.  Are there websites that give an idea on how efficient a solar array would be for different parts of the county?  I suspect that there needs to be differing systems for places that have varying amounts of sun - size of battery bank, things like that.

 

Thanks for your time.
Tom

There are a bunch of links.  I posted one up above in this thread....

You could start here  

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/all-about-complete-solar-systems

This is just an example of the calculations.  

In their map we are in zone 5 which gets an average, year around of 4.2 hours of sun per day.  In winter probably more like 3.  

 

[delcecchi]

Oh, and don't forget to include all the state and federal subsidies in the calculation.  Also, with a grid tied system, the utility has to pay you, I think retail price, for all the electricity you put into the grid.  

There are also companies in some places that will install the panels and lease them to you.  

[Bobby Bass]

3 hours ago, delcecchi said:

Oh, and don't forget to include all the state and federal subsidies in the calculation.  Also, with a grid tied system, the utility has to pay you, I think retail price, for all the electricity you put into the grid.  

There are also companies in some places that will install the panels and lease them to you.  

Nope on the retail price, they the power company give you a reduced rate as they charge you for the transmission of your power on their lines. Have a friend who is installing a array and will be selling his juice to the power company and then keeping his regular service. He will not be installing storage on  but will be using his electricity that he generates to defray the cost of his own usage. Not exactly going off the grid but a way of using solar to reduce his usage.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Bobby Bass
hate it when it will not correct

[BobT]

I wonder if the cost of installation, maintenance, easements, etc. along with improvements in technology have come to the point where it truly does provide a reasonable return on investment. I checked into adding solar panels to my house roof quite a few years ago and just figuring the cost of the installation and based on my electric rate at the time and the companies estimated energy return it wouldn't pay for itself in my lifetime. Granted, I just used rough numbers and I didn't consider the increased cost of electricity over the useful life but I also didn't include any maintenance estimate either. 

[delcecchi]

Net billing and generous government subsidies, along with low interest rates and much cheaper solar cells may have changed the calculation.  

I just saw that google is coming out with a new solar energy calculator, but it doesn't cover this part of the country yet. 

https://www.google.com/get/sunroof/faq/

https://www.google.com/get/sunroof/coverage.html

They even look at your roof and trees, based on their imagery, to see how it would work. 

[Justfishing]

Solar or wind are not really back up. Having solar provides electricity but it doesnt match production to your use. Most of the time you are producing more than you use and you need a way to store it so that when need electricity you have.  Battery storage systems are expensive to install and take maintenance. That is why most people are tied to the grid, the grid takes the power when you have excess and you take from the grid when you need it. When the power goes out the system is set up to disconnect from the grid so that linemen dont get electrocuted.  You go down with the grid unless you have a system that can store power and allow you to be disconnected. Costly and it is not done. 

 

  When tying to the grid there is a net metering agreement that spells out how it works. They are different in each state and they also change with time.  An example of how it might work is that if you uses more than you make you pay for the amount taken from the grid plus any monthly service charges.  If you have a big system and make more than you use the utility buys the excess for far less than the retail rate. 

In winter you generate far less than in summer and sometimes snow covers the panels and you make nothing. As expected there is a lot of seasonality and weather conditions that will vary the output. If you went totally off the grid your system would have to be big enough that in the winter it can produce enough electricity and it may be greatly over sized for summer. That along with the storage makes it cost prohibitive for most people. 

Now there are things you can do to make you home more energy efficient and if you were building a home new you could design it in a way that would allow you to capture enough warm from the sunlight that the house would never freeze even without heat for an extended time. Along with a wood stove and a small generator you could ride out an extended power outage, 

 

 

 

[Tom7227]

Justfishing has done a great job of explaining how renewables work with the currently available technology.  Simply put it at best is supplemental, not going to allow for going off the grid and not really going to work well in case of a grid based power outage. IMO the only way to deal with an outage is to buy a properly sized generator and wire it properly.  I think that can easily be done for less than a thousand dollars.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Tom7227