new dog addvice.

[hunter322]

Hey all! I have recently brought home a new family member. He is an English yellow lab. He is 3 1/2 months old as of this post. I have a couple of questions. First off, what is a good age to start breaking him on gun? I have been slaming a big text book on the floor or slaming cabinet doors while he is eating and it doesn't seem to bother him one bit. Secondly, how young is too young for a bark collar or an e-collar? Or what age should I introduce it to him? Thanks for your advice!

[BLACKJACK]

Don't rush into things, this is play time, time to get him socialized, get him used to people. Start with the basics, sit, heel, stay, leash work, make the sessions short, ten minutes or less, a few times a day.

Find yourself a good training book, I'm old fashioned, I still go back to my Richard Wolters Game Dog book (the big river site has them on sale for less than $20), he goes thru the basics all the way up to intro to water, guns, and field work.

Intro to guns is easy, what I usually do is goto a trap range with a lawn chair and a book, pup on the leash, we start out at 75 yards away and just sit there while they shoot, slowly move closer, they realize that its no big deal. Eventually when you're having great fun throwing dummies, have a partner shoot a gun 50 yards away, gradually work it closer. Sudden noises all of a sudden teaches them nothing, might scare them, and make it tougher in the future. A dummy thrower in the later stages is a great tool, it combines the loud noise with the retrieving dummy that they love to chase.

Electronic collars, done wrong you could ruin him, I'll let someone else chime in, or find yourself a training DVD or book. I don't use them myself but the proper way to use them is to reinforce what they already know, not to shock them hell out of them when they don't do what you want.

Finding some live birds/pigeons would be lots higher on the priority list for good pup training than a shock collar, get them to love birds!!!

Good luck!! Enjoy the pup!!

[Todd Caswell]

Congrats on your new pup, first off gun shyness really isn't gun shyness it's noise shyness and none of them are born that way it's man made. there has been some type of an experience in there lives that involved a load noice and it wasn't a fun or pleasant experience, and with respect to Blackjack sitting at the trap range, rifle range is a good example. I know alot of people do this and it may work for them, but alot of dogs have been ruined because of it. I want the noise of a gun shot to be something special, I take my puppy's with me on training night from the time i get them home, I put them in a crate so they can see the action , birds being thrown, hear the shots ect.. At the end of the night they get out and get to sniff around, socialize and get a few puppy marks when there ready, when they are crazy about retrieving we intoduce the gun ( 22 blank pistol) shot with a bird or bumper being thrown, most times they never even notice the shot they have been around it from day one. I have never done the pots and pans or anything like it and have never had a problem.

If yo have access to a retriever club, ( you have 3 that are pretty close to you) take advantage to the people and the grounds.

I HIGHLY recommend Bill Hillmans puppy program, it's a bit spendy around $100.00 but worth every penny, I promise that if you follow the program you will end up with a puppy with a solid base to advance on. Retriever training has changed so much in the last 20 years, sure the old ways still work fine but there are better options out there, and it's proven because our dogs are much better.

Through this program we introduce the collar at a pretty young age, some will argue but if done properly it works, and you would have to see the video to understand it. Iv'e put four puppy's through his puppy program and the early introduction to e-collars has done nothing to slow there drive and love of work, they all kick dirt in your face when they leave the line.

Go to youtube and search some of his videos..

Bottom line have fun with your puppy..

[BLACKJACK]

Todd, my going to a gun range is not a one time event, I would do it multiple times, then would incorporate live guns off at a distance, while dummies get thrown for the pup. And I wouldn't do it until the pup was older. Not really that different than having your pup in a kennel watching, my pup is just sitting by my chair watching.

Surprised not many people have jumped in with new pup advice, we all had to start somewhere once upon a time.

[Kyhl]

I agree with what has already been posted. Start with training of basic commands and socialization. You can't really do anything until the basics are there. Sit, heel, come, etc.

I also agree with associating gun training with something special, birds. My dogs get excited just seeing the shotgun. In the field the shot is now associated with a bird somewhere and they go on high alert when they hear a shot because something fun just happened.

E-collars are nearly the last thing you want to add in the process. Think of them as a wireless or invisible leash. Don't use them until the dog fully understands all of the commands that you intend to use. Then use it like a leash correction.

It doesn't help to apply a shock when the dog does not understand why it is happening.

[Stick500]

I always started my dogs real simple- I took them out when they were still young with an air pellet gun and popped some english (aka house) sparrows, english starlings or pigeons (all legal to shoot in all 50 states I believe) and once they knew a shooting gun meant a struggling, flopping bird for them to nab, the job was done. Simply step up to a .22 eventually and then finally a shotgun.

The birds I mentioned are tough to find in the woods- the best place is a farmstead. If you know anyone that has one, they'd probably be happy to have you shoot a few invasives, just don't damage their buildings!

[Bobby Bass]

There are many different ways to train a dog and I don't think there are any two that are the same. A lot will be dictated by your dog. Some dogs just jump out of the back of a pick up and start hunting. Others could care less and yet there are others that are a family pet and the hunting part is a bonus. My dogs have all been the family companion type and hunting is a bonus, a hobby that we both share. I have been lucky enough to always have two or three dogs at a time and the young ones learn from being with the older ones. So having said that here is my two cents on a new pup.

Not a fan of the slamming books and trying to disturb them at the dinner bowl. My first priority with a pup is to have them bond with me and learn commands. I train my dogs to come, sit, stay with both a voice command and hand signs. Some buddies give me grief over the hand signs but right now I have a fifteen year old lab that is deaf but knows what I want when he sees my hands clap or pat my leg or hold up the sign for stay. My wife teaches all the dogs the one finger point and wave, which means they are in trouble for something, I to have been taught that command.

I do spend a lot of time throwing dummies and using a cap gun. Hiding dummies that have scent on them and lavishing them with that a boys and pats for when they do good. I use a whistle and they know when I put a collar with the bell on they are going hunting. Never have used a shock collar or a bark collar, never felt I had to. My dog Duncan is one of them jump out of the truck and had the right idea kind of dogs. My lab Bud who passed away last fall was a dog I had to work with but he passed on his hunting habits to Duncan the few years that they were together. Now we are talking hunting grouse here for me, more close in work and a lot of scent work involved in retrieving birds in heavy cover. A duck dog is going to have a different set of skill needs as is a pheasant dog. So love up, praise em up and when he is a pup give him some time to grow up.

[CaptainMusky]

I have always found that the dogs I have been around that were gun shy were from litters that happened in the Fall or Early winter. Pups born in the Spring on the other hand are exposed to Thunderstorms, etc so they experience the loud noises and have all their brothers and sisters around with mom and they learn its no big deal.

Been my experience thus far and I have yet to find one in my experience that deviated. I have had dogs that were born in the Fall or winter that were not gunshy, but never had a Spring litter pup that was.

[Bryce]

Gun club advice is terrible because most owners don't have the patience to do it correctly. Way too easy to ruin a dog in a very short period of time.

[icehole10]

Congrats on your new pup, first off gun shyness really isn't gun shyness it's noise shyness and none of them are born that way it's man made. there has been some type of an experience in there lives that involved a load noice and it wasn't a fun or pleasant experience,

I have a now, 9 year old female yellow lab that used to be a machine in the field. She would see the gun come out, or me grabbing my game vest and she would shake with excitement. She also has had seizures since she was a very young pup. We had to put our male yellow lab down 3 years ago this coming July, and since about that same time frame she is scared of guns, or better yet loud noises. Just the sight of them and she goes and hides. I have spoke to a lot of other dog owners and have not found anyone that has seen such a thing. You obviously have had a lot of experience with labs, have you ever encountered such a thing? I feel bad when I have to leave her behind, but I cant take her with anymore. I wonder if it is a result of the seizures. She take a pill everyday, but still has a few a year. Our dogs are house dogs first, hunting dogs second, and spoiled rotten.

[MN Shutterbug]

As soon as I started reading Blackjack's first reply I assumed he had the book "Game dog". I have the same book, although it's been sitting gathering dust for a few years now, but I followed that book almost to a T. for my Springer Spaniel and she was the best hunting dog I ever came across and trained by yours truly. She learned the whistle and hand commands and I never needed to talk to her in the field. Her only fault was, she liked to chase whether I shot or not. I did get a shock collar but it was used for just reinforcement and not training. Eventually, I could set it on the lowest setting and just give her a "tickle" if she ever got a bit too far out.

We had a game farm nearby and I bought a live pheasant and trained her with that. After a few retrieves it expired so I kept it in the freezer and still was able to use it a few times. I actually started out with a canvas dummy and pheasant scent but I think she got a little bored with that after awhile. I also bought a live mallard and took her out in the canoe with that. It got away the first time out but that dog just didn't want to give up. That duck could really swim and finally got into the cat tails and I had to retrieve the dog.

The first time with a gun, I took my mother along and she held onto the leash. The first time I shot the shotgun I thought the dog was going to take off with my mother. It practically scared the dump out of my dog. It took a total of 3 shots and the dog didn't even flinch after that. Each dog will react differently.

[GFNER]

I dont understand why so many think an e-collar is a mandatory piece of training equipment.I'm by no means an expert and am not anti e-collar but I'm on my 4th lab and have only had to use the collar on one dog once. Have always been more of a "positive reinforcement" type. Seen too many guys ruin their dogs thinking an e-collar is a fix all. JMO. Good luck with your new pup and enjoy!

[Todd Caswell]

I dont understand why so many think an e-collar is a mandatory piece of training equipment.I'm by no means an expert and am not anti e-collar but I'm on my 4th lab and have only had to use the collar on one dog once. Have always been more of a "positive reinforcement" type. Seen too many guys ruin their dogs thinking an e-collar is a fix all. JMO. Good luck with your new pup and enjoy!

It's not mandatory, and it all depends on what level you want to train your dog to. Positive reinforcement is great and we use alot of it but it will only get you so far at some point there has to a negative reinforcement as well. Negative reinforcement wasn't invented with the e-collar it was there long before and those methods were alot more harsh and inconsistent, and correct timing of the correction was almost impossible for the dog to register it, and make scence of it. The trial and Hunt test dogs of today are so much better than the dogs of even 20 years ago, not because the dogs are better but the training methods and "tools" and the understanding of how to use those tools. And if you use those same methods and tools the gun dogs can be that much better at what they do as well.Think of the collar as a extension of me, if I'm running the water blind below and my dog gets in the second piece of water and is going to swim past the second point, I give a cast towards the point, and he refuses, I can use attrician by calling him in a bit and trying again, witch I do use alot of, and or I can use a correction from the collar for a cast refusal, if I'm not using the collar for a correction then I'm going swimming to make my point. And in this training example positive reinforcement won't cut it.

[MN Shutterbug]

I dont understand why so many think an e-collar is a mandatory piece of training equipment.I'm by no means an expert and am not anti e-collar but I'm on my 4th lab and have only had to use the collar on one dog once. Have always been more of a "positive reinforcement" type. Seen too many guys ruin their dogs thinking an e-collar is a fix all. JMO. Good luck with your new pup and enjoy!

I never used the collar for training. She was fully trained by the time I got the collar. I used it as a reminder or attention getter. Big difference. In my case, after the first few times, it was rarely used as she knew when it was on her.

[GFNER]

Points taken, not trying to dis you guys, you obviously know more about training than I. Just see too many zapping their dogs instead of putting in the time.

[MN Shutterbug]

Just see too many zapping their dogs instead of putting in the time.

That is a big mistake.

[Kyhl]

Points taken, not trying to dis you guys, you obviously know more about training than I. Just see too many zapping their dogs instead of putting in the time.

We have probably all seen it and I find it disturbing. That is why I added it as the last step after the dog has been trained. Think of it as an invisible leash used on the lowest setting that works.

If you see a physical reaction in the dog it is too high.

I also test it on myself before putting it on my dogs every time it is used. I have to know it works properly. I can't even feel a level one on the meat/base of my and just give the dogs a tickle when they need to be reminded that we are working as a team sometimes.

I have also needed to use it to protect a dog that was bounding towards a barbed wire fence after a hen that was passing over. They pay better attention than I do but sometimes they don't listen. I was very glad to be able to get her attention before she split herself open on a fence.

[Todd Caswell]

The single most important thing you can do is find a program and stick with it, I feel its easier for people to follow a vid. Program vs. A book. And if you have the option find a training group that can train with and help you out, like a retriever club.

[MN Shutterbug]

Hunter322, you have a PM.