Plowing question

[CigarGuy]

My son was offered a job doing plowing for a landscape company that he worked for last winter and this past summer. The owner wants him to do it full time this winter. He gave him several options on how he wants to pay him .... 1) 80% to 85% of what he makes on this jobsite per month. 2) hourly 3)by the inch. He has a ballpark on hourly rate, not on the inch deal. Without having the exact numbers, can any of you offer your thoughts on which way to go? All company equipment. Thanks

[Tom7227]

Well I don't have any experience in the plowing business but at least the 80-85% of what he makes per job site seems a bit odd to me. By the time the owner pays for the costs of the vehicle - insurance, gas and repairs - as well as the taxes involved, I can't see how there would be 85% left. By the inch leaves him risking minimal income if there isn't much snow. If it's hourly is it full time all the time or just when there is a need to plow?

Is the deal that he is an independent contractor with any of the options? If so then the costs and liabilities he faces could be significant.

[LwnmwnMan2]

Most guys pay about $20/hour for a driver. I pay that from when you clock in, until you clock out.

Is the 80-85% a gross number? Or net?

Say the owner gets $100 for plowing a lot. Does your son get $80 for plowing the lot?

Or after all expenses, the owner says he netted $30 on the lot and your son gets $24?

Even if it's the latter, he should be able to do a $100 lot in an hour, so he would actually be ahead of $20/hour, except he doesn't make money driving from lot to lot, and if work is spread out, you can easily get stuck in traffic no making any money.

[CigarGuy]

Thanks for the info. The hourly rate is right inline with your rate. He will get some clarification on the percentage offer. I think the per inch offer is out of the picture.

[Tom7227]

Be sure to clarify if he is going to be an employee or independent contractor. Big difference and being and IC is NOT in his best interest.

[luckydog25]

I agree 100% with Lnman. I pay by the hour always as to make sure there are no hard feelings towards me from a good employee. Only very good employees drive trucks. The rest are on shovels and blowers Tom, I don't know of many business owners hiring an independent contractor to run their own equipment, at least plowing snow around here. I hire independent guys if I get over loaded, but they run their own equipment, and are required to prove they are licensed and insured.

[MuleShack]

Sounds like the 80% is over what he would get for unemployment for the season which is based on the previous 3 quarters prior to the last one.

Is the "by the inch" figured at the job sites or at MSP? Could get screwed that way also.

Some guys collect unemployment and then do "by the hour" which they "have" to report to unemployment that counts against the benefits.

I'm not advocating for unemployment (as a former business owner) but that is what some do.

I would tell him to take the 80-85% pay as it is guaranteed and counts as full time employment on a resume...which can go along way in getting another job down the road. Yea you may make more on a per hour basis if we get frequent snow storms, but guaranteed money is always good to count on.

[CigarGuy]

Thanks all again! I really don't want him doing it full time, he is going to school at Dakota County Tech College for landscaping and I want him concentrate on his studies-not working all night and trying to go to school. But, I told him I would ask. He's a great worker and his boss really likes his work ethic and has made what sounds like a decent offer.

[LwnmwnMan2]

The IC contractor thing. I know of contractors that try to pull that.

Legally, if your son is in the employer's vehicle, he's an employee.

Technically, technically, even if he is using his own truck, but his employer was sending him on a route, he's an employee.

The 80-85% thing, I'd make sure he isn't going to try to 1099 him at the end of the year.

Also, if your kid is going to school for landscaping, I would want him to do plowing full time. If you're going to get into the industry full time, you're going to plow. Might as well learn how to manage this right off the bat.

[LightningBG]

I don't see how plowing could be full time anything. There just isn't enough consistent work. When it snows, things have to be done quickly most often, not strung out over a week. When it's not snowing, there is only so much maintenance and pile moving to be done.

Hourly is pretty straight forward.

By the inch is tough because it all depends on how many sq ft he's plowing at that per inch rate.

%.... Not even sure what to think about that. Seems too high for gross income. Also depends if the contracts are per inch, per event or per season. Taking on some risk there.

[LwnmwnMan2]

When I say "full time", I mean when it snows, he works, not " I can plow 8 am - 5 pm M-F" or whatever hours they think it snows.

Very few people understand what it takes to work snow.

That's why I suggested to the OP that his son dive into it "full time" as there's a good chance it'll be something his son will be sucked into as he's going to school for landscape.

[outdoors247]

I don't see how plowing could be full time anything. There just isn't enough consistent work. When it snows, things have to be done quickly most often, not strung out over a week. When it's not snowing, there is only so much maintenance and pile moving to be done./quote]

It's pretty tough to landscape in the winter months in Minnesota. Most landscapers plow in the winter to keep some income coming in. Is it full time, no, but a least it brings some money in while you wait for spring to arrive. I believe what LM2 was trying to say is, if he's getting into this trade he might as well put as many hours in as possible to get a leg up on the other guys entering his trade.

I agree with dad though, don't over do it. All that information learned about plowing will be no good if he's sleeping through classes and doesn't pass. He sounds like a good kid and I'm sure he will figure that out quickly as I did. I worked for a lawn maintenance company through college and got burned out a few times trying to do to much. I quickly realized I have to slow down a little to keep my grades up. Good luck to the young man!

[CigarGuy]

Thanks all! He's been working for lawncare outfits for about 3 years up in Grand Forks while at school and down here in the cities. Starting shoveling and now mostly running bobcats and plowing. Beside mowing, this summer his boss had him helping with sprinkler systems.

He bought his first rider with money he made mowing when he was 14. He sent flyers out in the neighborhood and had 8 regular accounts he would mow and do other related services. This summer he's working part time for the lawn care company and doing his own lawn care/landscaping. Heck, he's renting dump trailers/bobcats and doing some pretty decent jobs for a builder and other customers. So, a little bragging aside, he's learning the industry. It only cost me two years of college in Grand Forks before a change in direction! But, this seems to be his passion, it sure seems like a tough business, so, I hope it works out. Long hours, no hours, snow, no snow, rain, no rain, working equipment, broken equipment. Leaving the deer shack early to come home and plow-friends in our hunting party have done this!

[LwnmwnMan2]

Thanks all! He's been working for lawncare outfits for about 3 years up in Grand Forks while at school and down here in the cities. Starting shoveling and now mostly running bobcats and plowing. Beside mowing, this summer his boss had him helping with sprinkler systems.

He bought his first rider with money he made mowing when he was 14. He sent flyers out in the neighborhood and had 8 regular accounts he would mow and do other related services. This summer he's working part time for the lawn care company and doing his own lawn care/landscaping. Heck, he's renting dump trailers/bobcats and doing some pretty decent jobs for a builder and other customers. So, a little bragging aside, he's learning the industry. It only cost me two years of college in Grand Forks before a change in direction! But, this seems to be his passion, it sure seems like a tough business, so, I hope it works out. Long hours, no hours, snow, no snow, rain, no rain, working equipment, broken equipment. Leaving the deer shack early to come home and plow-friends in our hunting party have done this!

I'm not going to try to scare you, and you can take this advice any way you want.

If he's doing work, for himself, I'd be careful how many people you let know about it, especially his boss.

I started from scratch when I was 16. About 3 years later, out of the blue I got a letter from the Department of Revenue saying I owed back sales tax on everything I had receipts for.

They also pulled my checking account records.

Lawn care and landscaping is taxable. Snowplowing and irrigation work is not. If you'd like, you can PM me for more details.

If he plans on keep doing work for himself, you will want to get a state tax ID number and probably a FEID as well, if you haven't already.

[fishersofmen]

Long hours, no hours, snow, no snow, rain, no rain, working equipment, broken equipment.

Sounds familiar. After 15 years I am hoping to get out soon, however I have been saying that for a while.

[LwnmwnMan2]

Sounds familiar. After 15 years I am hoping to get out soon, however I have been saying that for a while.

This is my 25th year from scratch. Last year was the first year I actually filled out an application to do something else. I didn't turn it in, but I filled one out.

[fishersofmen]

The grass isn't always greener on the other side I guess. I have dabbled in some other ventures along the way but keep going back. The plowing is the worst for me. I enjoyed doing it for a while but after so many years it has gotten a bit old. It is a different way of life when your life revolves around the weather. The 2 inch routes are fine but when the big ones hit and you are going back and forth in a truck for 20 hours with no sleep I think to myself what the heck am I doing lol.

[LwnmwnMan2]

Last year I had a stint of 76 hours straight in the truck.

I agree the plowing part sucks for me too.

I'm doing my best to get out of the field, be less hands on and more the office / bidder / fixer guy, although that's digging deep into the pocket book.

[Jameson]

HaHa! Retired landscaper here! I never could be a full-time plow guy as I just can't handle being up for even 24 hours at a time. I would do some skid loader snowplowing to spell the full timers once in a while. Mowing was too boring for me. Just installed hardscapes, plants, and mulches. You know, the hard work.

[Tom7227]

Maybe the last few posts contain the best advice the OP's son could get. Go back to school and learn a trade where the 24+ hours aren't on the list of things that have to be done.

[CigarGuy]

A lot to think about for sure. I talked to him about that type of work, but he likes the field, so I'll let it go. He tried going to school for engineering, but he's not a big book/study guy.

[luckydog25]

Agreed, the plowing is fun at first. But after a few years it gets old fast. I seriously considered selling my business this spring after the winter we had last year. It seemed like it snowed every weekend, I spent Christmas without family because I had to do triple the work so others could be with theirs. That February storm where we got the ice then a foot of snow was a nightmare. I worked for 2 days straight then had to drive up to Hibbing on the same crappy roads since I was in a wedding. Enough whining...that felt good though! Needless to say, I will be plowing again this winter. The pay sure was nice last year.

[LwnmwnMan2]

HaHa! Retired landscaper here! I never could be a full-time plow guy as I just can't handle being up for even 24 hours at a time. I would do some skid loader snowplowing to spell the full timers once in a while. Mowing was too boring for me. Just installed hardscapes, plants, and mulches. You know, the hard work.

I don't envy guys like you. I don't get any enjoyment out of hardscape install.

We do some landscape, done the most this year than I ever have, but it's 85% maintenance in the summer.

I enjoy plowing. I'm a bit of an introvert, as well as a night owl, so I'm up, alone at night anyways.

Last winter did put a huge stress on my family. Not only did we get over 90" of snow in the NE metro last year (last date of billable snow was May 5), but like fisher, all the extras I do as well as plow the snow.

Move snowpiles, salt, clean areas where guys pushed snow they shouldn't. It got old. Wife didn't like being a single mom most of the winter. We plowed 19 of 31 days in December last year. Normal month would be 3-4.

[Jameson]

I don't envy guys like you. I don't get any enjoyment out of hardscape install.

...

Must not be bidding them high enough then. Besides the good money, building something always was something I liked. Maintaining something is for someone else. Good thing we aren't all alike.

[LwnmwnMan2]

Must not be bidding them high enough then. Besides the good money, building something always was something I liked. Maintaining something is for someone else. Good thing we aren't all alike.

I feel we get decent money. The work we do is for.current customers and they usually don't ask how much, but how soon, just get it done type stuff.

I'm a quick results type guy. I don't want to go back to the same property for a week.

I agree though, it's absolutely beautiful to see a property completely transformed. Then I get the joy out of maintaining it. But no more hjiacking of the thread.