2014 MNDNR Roundtable

[DTro]

I'm heading over to day 2 of my first roundtable this morning and had a few minutes here so i thought I would share some of my thoughts.

When I first arrived yesterday I was a bit overwhelmed at not only the number of people attending, but also the people that were there. Starting at the Governor and working on down to district legislators, presidents of local clubs, and several people I recognized from various news and outdoor media outlets. It is well represented for sure.

There were many presentations about the state of our fisheries, our wildlife clean water, AIS, and also a lot of specific information about popular lakes like Mille Lacs.

Some of the key points that I personally took home

-our grasslands and fish habitat are declining at a rapid rate. At rate in which if we don't do something about it soon, our fishing and hunting will no doubt suffer consequences even more so than it already has.

-There is a major problem with the small pike population throughout the state. The net pulls just keeping going up and up on most all lakes. This is causing many problems for the other species. Of course most people are concerned about what the pike are doing to the walleys, but all other species are suffering as well, including especially the Perch. Something drastic and aggressive HAS to be done about the alarming number of small pike in the state.

-Its quite obvious the DNR has drawn a line in the sand when it comes to AIS issues and will do whatever they can in their power to fight the spread. Which we all want, but personally I feel its not a black and white issue and it will affect some of us more than others when it comes to AIS regs. Gates at launches are my biggest fear...

-Don Pereira, the recently hired new fisheries chief, seems like a guy that is truly concerned about all of us. Whether we fish 1 day a year, or 100 days a yeer. He recognizes the diversity MN enjoys and won't cater to special interests. He seems conservative minded, and the theme of his overview was fish habitat and protecting that. I think we have a good guy in place there

-Mille Lacs has more issues going on that anyonce can imagine. Its a perfect storm right now and they are diligently working on finding not only the root causes of the problems, but also ways to try and solve them. They clearly showed that the spawning population of walleyes is at a high number and that tribal netting is only s small fraction of what is going on there in that lake. One of the big things on tap is a diet study to find out what is eating what and draw some conclusions from that. From what I observed, they are taking this very seriously.

Anyways just a few of my thoughts as I head out to day 2...

[Wanderer]

Thanks for some insight on the Roundtable meeting Darren. What were your day 2 takeaways?

I find the comments on the pike interesting. I've always thought the limit of 3 was a little low for how many are out there - but its been that way for so long. With the people I fish with, few keep pike no matter what the size is. Nobody wants to clean them. Personally I don't mind and have many fantastic meals of pike and will continue to do so. They're not that hard and each fish yields a nice pile of meat.

I bet you've heard more information on the topics addressed than you expected.

[Kettle]

That's some great info, pretty awesome that you attend something like that!

Kettle

[DTro]

Day 2 was only a few hours of presentations, but some very great info!

-Leech lake has too many big walleyes and the slot will be relaxed this year.

-Guide licensing legislation will be introduced this year.

-Statewide Tulibee/Cisco population is in trouble and we need to figure out why

It became quite obvious to me that (although it remains controversial and is not 100 percent perfect) the Legacy Amendment has been the greatest thing to happen in our benefit in perhaps as long as the MNDNR has existed.

Many presentations had a direct or indirect link to the $ provided by the act and great strides are being made at the grass roots level. A perfect example is the Rat Root River near Rainy Lake. Decades of neglect and development had turned the Rat Root from a major walleye spawning area into nothing more than a dammed up creek. With funds provided by the Legacy and also matching funds from partners, they have been able to restore a lot of the river by removing log jams and re-creating spawning habitat. They also implemented a tagging program to understand just how important the Rat Root River really is to Rainy Lake (they found Rat Root River Spawners as far as 50 miles away in Canada).

I also learned how successful the Red Lake rehabilitation has been and many facts presented about the historical rise and fall that I wasn't previously aware of. Just an amazing story.

Another thing I took away was that when the MNDNR reaches out with surveys, we need to participate as much as we can. They use these to make important decisions and are critical tools to them.

Finally the last message I would like to pass along is that no matter how critical (myself included) we can be of the bureaucratic mess the dept can be, ultimately WE are in control. If we want to protect and conserve our successful fishing and hunting we enjoy now, it is imperative that we all find a way to put in what we take out. Whether that be not developing shoreline habitat, not plowing under grasslands or maybe using it for CRP instead of crops, volunteering on sportsmans clubs or groups, or something as simple as taking a kid fishing. IF we all do our part no matter how big or small, the combined end result will be be a positive one.

If anyone is ever invited to participate or present at one of these roundtables, I highly recommend it. Not just to move forward with your own needs or wants, but to get an overall understanding of the vast diversity our state offers and the great people that live here and are out trying to conserve it for future generations.

[jentz]

DTro culd you please elaborate more on this statement in your first post?

(They clearly showed that the spawning population of walleyes is at a high number and that tribal netting is only s small fraction of what is going on there in that lake.)

The Tribune artical by Anderson and Smith state

"Neither Peereira or Drake mentioned whether netting of spawining fish in spring affects MilleLacs"

[delcecchi]

I took it to mean that their test netting shows plenty of spawning age females in the population, but that somehow that hasn't been reflected in good year classes a year or two down the line, similar to what is happening on the west end of Vermilion.

Also, from this or other sources it sounds like they are concerned that the high smallie population and the high northern population could be eating too many of the little walleye, long before netters or anglers can get to them.

Is that your take as well, from what was said?

[CaptainMusky]

I think it was pretty clear the dnrs thinking on the role of smallies in mille lacs after they opened up the limits on the last year.

It would have been interesting to hear their thoughts on zebras impact.

[Stick in Mud]

Awesome, Dtro. Thank you for taking the time both to attend and to post what you've heard.

I was especially curious about your comments on the northern pike populations. Did they outline any possible solutions at this point? Seems like somehow we need to convince about 50,000 folks to start pickling 20'' northerns.

[jentz]

delcecchi were you at the roundtable?I ask cause the Trib artical says nothing about netting was mentioned.DTro mentions it was, as a smallfraction of a problem.

Did they mention nets at all?Is the Trib artical misleading?

I in now way want to start the net bull.I dont and wont have a steak in it!!

[DTro]

Ok first on the Pike problem, it was mostly discussed informally amongst the stakeholders. I don't think the DNR has an outlined plan yet. However some of the ideas were to drastically increase the bag limit. Also to maybe start a campaign to encourage more harvest of small pike and to educate about pickling or whatnot. We were cautioned by Mr Pereira that pike are a species that when taken out of a system in large numbers will actually try to overcome that by proliferating and spawning like mad (my words). So you might be making the problem worse by taking them out of the system in large numbers. Its a complex problem for sure.

On the ML thing....I don't want to get into the whole netting thing, but the presentation we were shown clearly stated that the spawning population was still at a high level and the eggs produced in that one lake alone was more than the entire walleye stocking program in the state and while it wasn't discussed a whole lot, the slides that I saw showed that the harvest by the tribe was only a small percentage of the overall harvest and that what is going on in the lake right now is a multi headed monster and fixing one thing isn't going to be the solution.

[Down Deep]

Good report. The DNR's research is really superb and usually can get to the heart of an issue and suggest solutions. I like what you say about the fisherman being in control, however we are just a morsel of the big picture. Was there anyone from the mining industry, farming, energy or land development present? Seems like when it comes to a choice between water or the big four --water always loses.

Everyone should remember that Red Lake was deemed dead and now flourishes as a walleye fishery. The basis for walleye production is still present in Mille Lacs and I'm very confident that a similar solution will be found for it.

[Scott M]

Wait, it wasn't a smoky room filled with DNR fat cat types making deals through a secret handshake?

And the legacy amendment is funding things other than massive chunks of new age sculptures and dog parks?

*******************************************

Good recap dtro, now you get to spin in circles trying to explain all the details of the individual issues. I can already see the vultures circling. "Don't shoot the messenger" comes to mind. Mille Lacs and northern pike management are so easy, look where we've gotten with both in 150 years!

[DTro]

I don’t know the particulars of who was there representing what, but I can tell you that there was a presentation by an old farmer (who was very humorous by the way) and he demonstrated some new technologies that are showing promising results in keeping down erosion and our rivers cleaner.   Speaking of farmers, wow I got a lesson on why its so obvious that farmers are choosing to plow under CRP and grasslands in favor of corn or other crops.  It’s a financial no brainer.  The farm bill while providing some good things to farmers is wiping out a lot of grasslands and that’s a fact.

 

There was an entire section dedicated to clean water and as you might know a chuck of the legacy amendment is dedicated to clean water.   To be quite honest with you, I went into the wrong presentation (one side was wildlife and the other was clean water) and found my head spinning with all the facts and details about all of the clean water stuff that is going on around the state

[delcecchi]

delcecchi were you at the roundtable?I ask cause the Trib artical says nothing about netting was mentioned.DTro mentions it was, as a smallfraction of a problem.

Did they mention nets at all?Is the Trib artical misleading?

I in now way want to start the net bull.I dont and wont have a steak in it!!

[merkman]

-There is a major problem with the small pike population throughout the state. The net pulls just keeping going up and up on most all lakes. This is causing many problems for the other species. Of course most people are concerned about what the pike are doing to the walleys, but all other species are suffering as well, including especially the Perch. Something drastic and aggressive HAS to be done about the alarming number of small pike in the state.

[DTro]

Ok, I apologize if I didn’t make myself clear.  These were MY OWN observations and I’ll go ahead and use whatever adjectives/adverbs I like. Read into it deeper however you want.

 

However, even those folks in attendance that enjoy fishing for pike and support that fishery spoke out about the problem they are seeing.    The presentation I watched, showed over the past 40 or so years, a steady increase of small pike and a steady decrease in perch.  Now if you want a lake full of 20” stunted pike that’s a good thing, but  I would guess most people would like to see a healthy balance with the opportunity  of some larger pike.    I can’t remember the exact details, but I believe one of the stats was that they were seeing some pike reaching maturity at 12”.  Think about that one..

[merkman]

small pike.

[DTro]

Nobody is pointing the finger at anyone for eating small pike, and In fact if everyone did that there wouldn’t be a so called problem.  I agree and think pike is probably the best tasting fish we have here in MN.  Heck, I bet if you go ahead and volunteer to clean and prepare them for everyone they would agree too. 

 

We live in a democratic society and the majority of fishermen don’t want to mess with a stringer of 14-20” pike.  That is just a plain fact.  

 

But again, even if they taste like chicken it’s just not healthy for a lake to be imbalanced like that and full of 20” pike, especially when you want to try and put other fingerlings or fry like walleyes in there

[merkman]

We live in a democratic society and the majority of fishermen don’t want to mess with a stringer of 14-20” pike.  That is just a plain fact.  

 

Statements like that do little to nothing to promote the taking and eating of smaller pike to better the resource. Nor does discounting those who do. There is a base of people in Minnesota who enjoy taking the smaller fish and letting the larger fish swim for another day. Build on that base. The trophy mentality constantly beats the drum that bigger fish are somehow better.... if we as sportsmen want to see bigger northerns.. then we need to stop the thoughts that bigger fish are somehow "better".

Besides, if your gonna feed the small pike ( < 24" ) the proper sized food to make their numbers explode.... you might as well harvest them.... IMHO

Carry On....

.

[DTro]

  The statement wasn’t intended to promote anything.    The gist of what I’m saying is that a lake full of stunted pike is not healthy and there should be a balance of year classes with an opportunity to support both sport and harvest angling.  We currently don’t have that.   I don’t have anything more to say about that.

 

Now, back to the walleye thing.  As I was thinking about this Pike thing I remembered a little more info about the tribal netting thing.    A question was brought up regarding wording of the treaty and if there was something in it that allowed the State to enact a moratorium on netting if the lake was in dire condition.  The answer was yes indeed there was a clause that the State could step in for an emergency conservation issue but if it came to that, the State would need to have solid quantitative proof that a moratorium or ban on netting would change the situation they are stopping it for.   The State does not have that.  In other words it would be a battle lost

[CaptainMusky]

Merkman, lets not pick apart words in a person's "take" on a meeting.

Do you honestly think an over abundance of pike under 20" is a good thing? By over abundance the test nettings, etc would show that the population is pretty much void of fish of the larger sizes?

So it doesnt make sense to you that a species have representation from multiple year classes or size structure?

Dtro didnt say anything about those that want to harvest "smaller pike", in fact, I believe he is suggesting MORE of it. Are you afraid that if more small pike are harvested that you wont get your's? I guess I am confused as to why you were picking apart the observations.

At any rate, I think this roundtable is a good first step in getting some analysis out there and potentially leading to plans of action.

Dtro, one question about the moratorium. Was there anything said that IF a moratorium on netting WAS justified, what would that mean for hook and line anglers? I would have to ASSume that something drastic would be done there too.

[DTro]

No it wasn’t discussed, but I can only imagine that if the clause about emergency conservation of the lake was used as a basis to a netting moratorium, then in parallel, hook and line would probably be discontinued as well, such as what happened on URL.    Just speculation on my part though.

 

With the attention the lake is getting right now, I don’t see it getting to that point, but everyone has to remember we are dealing with Mother Nature issues too and that usually goes in her favor when she wants it to and we can only try and persuade her.   The new Chief has a plan in place (can be found in Strib article) and I’m confident that they will be able to get this turned around. 

 

Reading between the lines, in my opinion, one of the big factors is the water clarity (clearest it has ever been) and predation on YOY walleyes by sight feeders, one of which happens to currently be flourishing on the lake (smallies).   We were told that the planned diet study should bring us more answers.  If it is found that is happening then the big question is how to manage it, keeping in mind that you can’t make the water less clear, and you can’t get rid of the Zebe’s.   It seems like taking Bass out of the lake would be beneficial to the walleyes, but now, understandably, we have Bass supporters who are enjoying a world class fishery and like it the way it is.  

 

Who wants to make these decisions???   Not me….

[CaptainMusky]

Yes, Dtro, its about as complex of an issue as you could get. It would be one thing if it were just dealing with walleye spawning, but then you throw in Zebes and smallies, etc etc to the list and it gets very complicated in a hurry.

The one thing I have read on multiple occasions pertaining to zebes is that at some point they exceed carrying capacity for the water they are in, then have a die off and settle at a population much lower. I believe it was around the 10 year mark based on the studies on other bodies of water.

The population has grown considerably faster in ML than expected so I have to wonder would we potentially hit this wall sooner?

When this does happen, I am sure things will balance out a bit, but you are right the water is incredibly clear for that lake.

[LMITOUT]

Wait, it wasn't a smoky room filled with DNR fat cat types making deals through a secret handshake?

If it isn't open to the public, then yes, that's essentially what it is with the same handful of blowhards who push what they want, not what the majority wants. These are the same people who fish/guide the same lake all year long and could care less about the other 9994 so-called lakes in the state.

[Jameson]

Dtro, thanks for sharing your insight into the roundtable with us! I wish everyone that attended would do something similar.