2003 ATV law

[RiverKarhu]

I'm trying to wade thru the bill language of the 2003 ATV law. Anybody who can help please jump in anytime. It looks to me like I don't have all the bill language, because I can't find half the stuff people are talking about. The House summary of the bill is useless. When I search for the bill language I either get the house summary or the whole entire legislative law code.
It looks to me like all the state forests will be "trails closed unless posted open" by 2006, unless there is a request for a two year extension. Others have said it will be 2010, but I can't find that language in the bill.
I also can't find the hunting season language in the bill. Will we be able to go to our deer stands on ATV? Or just use them to build a stand and to retrieve big game? What about all the cabin owners whose cabins are only accessible by wheeler? Will they still be able to go to their cabins?
My original understanding of the bill was that it covered only state lands, but I see they added or changed a section to read that the "closed unless posted open" applies to county lands within a state forest unless the county passes an ordinance saying otherwise.
What about private lands such as paper company/mining company? Much of George Washington and Koochiching state forest is a checkerboard of private and public. It's going to be a mess.
Comments or help with this would be appreciated.

River

[Fisher Dave]

Most laws are still the same now as they were in the recent past. Yes, most state forest are going to be changed to *Limited* usage. The changover is supposed to be done by sometime in 2006. They are supposed to be surveying various forest and trails to create designated trails .. for now, very little has changed other than wetland usage.

The laws during the FIREARMS DEER SEASON are far more restrictive than the everyday laws. If you possess a firearms deer license you must follow the restrictions which include only running your machine to 1/2 hour before sunset(before shooting time), from 11 am to 2 pm, and 1/2 after sunset(after shooting hours). Machines can be used to retrieve big game and to build tree stands.. Check out the hunting regs for further regulations during the hunting season, and the ATV regs for general restrictions.

All of this can be accessed on the dnr site. The regs can be downloaded.

[RiverKarhu]

FisherDave-
I know the ATV laws for now are about the same, and I know the regs for hunting season.
What I am curious about, and a whole lot of other people, are what is going to happen when the forests are closed except posted. If your deer stand isn't near a designated trail, it doesn't matter what the operating hours are - you won't be able to use your ATV unless you are retrieving big game.
The way I read the law, it is not some state forests, it is ALL state forests.
And I still wonder what is going to happen to all those cabin owners that won't be able to access their cabins unless they are near a trail......
I'm still not clear on what year this is going to happen in. 2006? 2008? 2010?

later,

River

[This message has been edited by RiverKarhu (edited 10-20-2003).]

[Dave]

River, from what I heard last year, cabin owners, who need it, will be able to get a "permit" to access their land.

Yes, when inacted, this new law will probably be a problem for most hunters. Now, deer hunters are exempt from the off-trail travel regs. Does that mean deer hunters can ride anywhere at this later date? I dunno. That's why some of us were saying last year to talk to your legislators and representatives. The places you ride to now for hunting may be closed in a few years. This includes ALL hunting seasons.

[This message has been edited by Dave (edited 10-21-2003).]

[RiverKarhu]

Dave -
I did write my legislator last spring during the fight and did everything I could, unfortunately my time is limited. I pay my ATVAM dues and appreciate all their work. It sounded to me that just getting the closed unless posted open put off for a few years was the best ATVAM could do. The legislature, which seems to be driven in this case by certain articles in papers and small groups of anti motorized fanatics, was bound and determined to pass something.
Other riders in my area (Hibbing) I have talked to are totally unaware of what is going to happen in a couple of years. They have no clue that the areas they ride now in Kooch and George Washington are going to closed. When I tell them about it, the response is always the same -"no way they will pass anything that stupid..". Then I explain that it already has been passed and I get blank looks.
The county land provision took me by surprise, I was under the impression that it would be like the ditch riding thingy, open unless the county passed an ordinance against it.
The cabin issue is another rule I hadn't thought of - so owners will be able to get permits at the pleasure of the DNR. That's going to go over like a lead balloon.
Deer and grouse hunters are going to see a major impact. I know our deer hunting group is mostly on county land, with trails 1 to 3 miles long out to our stands. We will have to abandon a big chunk of land and pull back closer to the road I guess.
Or become outlaws - I think that is going to happen a lot. I don't see how this law is going to be enforced, especially in vast tracts of land such as up in Kooch State Forest. There is going to be a lot of land that will be unused and unaccessible. Except for loggers I suppose.
Somehow we have to wake up the general population of ATVers to this new law. NonATVAMers don't know what is coming.

back to work I guess

River

[Dave]

River, you're exactly correct!

[traveler]

Or not... River, do you really believe that you're up against "small groups of anti-motorized fanatics" here? I have news for you my friend, this ssue may well drive a wedge between many of us that love the outdoors. Check my posts on this forum if you like; I'm a lifelong hunter and fisherman, and always wil be. I'm not in any "fanatic" groups that you refer to, unless the Steelhead Assc. or MDHA count. In short, I'm probably very much like you except for one thing, I walk. Not everywhere mind you, no more then I use a paddle everytime I hit the water. Motors have thier uses. But if theres a reasonable choice between the two, I'll be on foot. I just got back from a week of busting my a** in the mountains chasing elk, and the same issues are coming to a head out west. I don't have all the answers, and obviously there will be some tough choices along the way. But don't underestimate the resolve or the determination of those of us who don't share your love of ATV's and the like. I waited a long time to go "public" on this forum as to my feelings on ATV's, just doing so will undoubtedly taint some of my future postings in the eyes of some guys. That's too bad, and we'd better all try to keep as open a mind as possible here. There are plenty of other issues facing sportsman in the near future that will challenge us all.

[Ray Esboldt]

traveler,

I respect your passion for travel on foot, but as far open minds go, I've never seen the other track of your mind. Where do you see ATVs fitting into the great outdoors? Just a question; not trying to start the same debate that's occurred in the Outdoor Politics Forum.

[traveler]

Ray, I don't think we can avoid that debate; it's the central question here. My opinion, and that's all it is, would be the closed unless posted open policy. On all non-private lands, period. That really doesn't say much, heck, 90% could be posted open, making that rule pretty useless. But we know that's not the way it would go right? I don't think enough trails would get the "open" designation to satisfy motorized fans. Soooo...in that scenario, ATV's would very possibly fade in popularity. I firmly believe that would be a good thing. I'm sure a lot of guys reading this forum are younger then me ( I'm 44) but quite a number must be old enough to remember how things were 20 or 30 years ago. If you had a spot deep in the woods that you busted your hump to find/hunt, you were pretty safe in knowing you would have a quality hunt. No red "puppet flags" to mark the trail either. There was actually WOODS that a guy could get deep into, remember guys??? Now, walking means next to nothing in many areas. Heck, there's a 4 wheeler trail that runs within 100 yards of the deer stand I (and both my son and daughter) have used over the years. It was made by some bear hunters out exploring, I guess I should be thankful they didn't put a bait there. But after seeing no one off that stand for years, now theres a trail that any clown can bumble down, right to the spot I spent many hours discovering. Just an example there, but it sums up what I think ATV's are doing to the current generation of hunters. A question for any ATV'er who cares to answer it. I'm not asking an older guy who can't get around, or a disabled felow. I'm asking a reasonably young, healthy, rider, which is mostly what I see, Why don't you walk??? Do you like not being able to chat with your partner/son/wife while walking through the woods? Don't you like the sound of autumn leaves crunching under your feet? Do you need the mechanical breakdowns, gas fumes, NOISE, that machines bring? I'm sorry, I truly just don't get it. It isn't a race, so why not walk? Or maybe is it a race. If you're not riding, the next guy will be, so you better get there first? No, I'm not gonna go hug a tree now, I'd be more likely to fire up the chain saw and make wood for the campfire. See, there's a distinction between a machine/tool benifiting us, as sportsman, and one taking us away from those things we set out to achieve in the first place. Who gets to make that distnction is what all the fuss is about I guess.

[traveler]

Ray, I didn't really answer your question I guess. I think ATV's should be used where they save us some hard a** work, then let us enjoy the outdoors in peace. A few examples; 1: On the ice, especially early/late season. No one ever enjoyed trudging thru slush to get out on the lake, no one I know anyway. A good example of a motor saving us time and energy, much like the chainsaw. 2:Yard/farm/ranch work; heck, it's work. Get it over with and hit the woods. 3: Trail riding. On an approved trail system, if you like riding, theres the time and place. 4: On private land. It's your land, treat it how you like, within reason. There are still issues with water/erosion that could impact adjacent areas.

[Dave]

traveler, I'm almost your age. I remember the old days too. Now, trucks and cars are driving close to where we use to hoof it back in the woods. I also respect your decision not to ride but I have to ask, you're a MDHA fanatic? Do you agree with their position as a group (voiced at state meetings) that MDHA supports the use of ATVs during deer hunting. MDHA pushed towards the off trail travel excemption for deer hunters. reading your words, I'm just surprised you list yourself as a fanatic with MDHA.

To answer your question, I enjoy riding and hunting. For over 20 years, I've combined the two. And still want to. My sons and I do walk the woods, do hear the leaves crunch and do talk while walking the woods together. We also bring our lunch out in the woods. We've seen more neat things that we probably wouldn't if we walked.
No, it's not a race for me. Recent years, it's more of getting back to places where other hunters aren't. So many of the walking hunters really don't walk very far in the woods.

[This message has been edited by Dave (edited 10-21-2003).]

[Benny]

Traveler,I am with in two years of your age and am good physical shape as far as being able to walk where ever I would want to.
So I believe this qualifies me to give you an answer.
I ride my ATV into the woods so I can get further back than any walker would care to walk.I also use it because I can,and I love to ride them.I grew up riding ATV's , as well as hunting ,fishing and trapping.I have always used the ATV to travel to and from the spots I wanted to go to.I used it to run a trap line, mainly because I was to young to have a Minn. drivers license at that time.It gave me an opertunity to get out in the woods to enjoy those activities.

As for this time in my life I use the ATV in very much the same way.As a tool to get away from others , so I can hunt my own little piece of the woods.
I just got back from Fergus Falls area, it seemed like every single access point I tried had some one else there hunting the spot I wanted to.
Up North earlier this year, I went to hunt a favorite spot only to find two walking hunters already starting down the trail.
No problem, I just unloaded the ATV and drove up to the walkers.I explained to them I was going to go a few miles in before I started my hunt so they would have the next 4 miles to them selves.Then off I went, 4 miles later I found few aspen groves to walk through.I saw a bird or two on the way in,but I held to my word.I still had a great hunt and I do believe the walkers found the birds I passed as I saw feathers on the trail where they cleaned them.

Sure I could have walked back there, but how would those other two people felt if I would have followed them till they turned around?Or if I would have did the high step past them to beat them to the area I wanted?
Would they have been up set, more than when I went by on my ATV after explaining my intentions?
I believe they would have been in my face if I would have blew by them walking faster than they to get out there.I would have taged those two birds as well.

I still have yet to see any walking hunters more than a few miles back,With the exception of Deer hunters.

I bet 90% of all walking hunters never go any further in than say maybe 2 or 3 miles.Most I have seen just go one mile in and then off to another trail.
There are some great spots to hunt if you travel in 4 or 5 miles on some of these logging roads.One road by Calumett Minn. you could walk from Snow Ball Lake to Succer Lake and never cross a paved or low maint. road.It would take a walker at least two days to travel one way that far.

Well,I have rambled on enough.
Some one else want to pipe in?

Benny

[traveler]

Hey Dave, The "fanatic" carried over from the other poster, I don't consider myself a fanatic of any sort, certainly not with the MDHA or any other group. And I don't agre with their stance on ATV's, but do think they do meaningful work on other fronts. To you and Benny as well, Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I expected less, coming on "your" forum and spoutin off. You guys will be the reason we'll eventually reach some comprimise on this issue. Deep access seems to be a key with both of you, and I'm sure some trails that run for long distances would be among the ones you'd want to pursue for an "open" designation. As well as some that provide cabin/shack access. Believe me when say this, you guys are NOT the ones we want off ATV's. But you knew that didn't you Unfortunatly, the mounting use/misuse will bring restriction, that's a fact. I have a feeling it's guys like you that need to be at the table when rules are hashed out. Maybe I do too...

[Surface Tension]

You drive your ATV to get to places others don't walk to but in the mean time you've just done to a walker what you are driving your ATV to avoid? Also how can you drive your ATV to distant trials when theres other ATVs doing the same thing you are? Confussing...
So you drive your ATV to a distant trail so you can walk? Why would the trail your planning on walking not have ATVs running up and down it? Sorry but its been my experience the ATVs running the trails aren't traveling to remote trails to walk.
I've walked 5 miles down a trail many times hunting grouse, not any more however.
Being passed by an ATV every 15 minutes pretty much ended that. So I've quit hunting some of my favorite trails and looked for areas less traveled by ATVs.
Being an ATV owner I don't like the new restrictions either. My solution would have been hour restrictions during part of the Grouse season.
I believe if there wasn't ATVs toting shotguns we wouldn't even be having this conversation about restrictions and maybe having my cake and eating it too?

[Surface Tension]

Ok I'm off my whine and back to the topic. Just ticks me off to get change we have to choose between one of two extreme groups and hope for something sensible which I didn't do because I don't agree with either.

Are the permits for cabin owners seasonal or year round? How about members of a hunting party other then cabin owners?

What about roads flooded by beaver dams, are these off limits with the restrictions? Looks like we're leaving a lot of the new rules up for interpretation to the CO's. The Max (6 wheeler dueled up to 12 tires) is going to see even more garage time.

[This message has been edited by Surface Tension (edited 10-22-2003).]

[RiverKarhu]

All good discussion. Thanks you guys for your input.
We don't all ride/walk/hunt in the same types of areas. Some of us hunt in areas where there are a fairly dense pattern of trails/roads and pretty much everywhere can be accessed by foot from a road or trail. Others hunt in more remote areas. We hunt in an area where we ride our ATVs 2 or 3 miles to our stands. No roads any nearer. We used to walk in, 20 years ago (I'm getting awful close to 50), but we spent a disproportionate amount of time hoofing it - there were no trails then. My 77 year old dad now rides his ATV to his stand, brings his heater, and is able to sit all day. We mostly hunt this way, the area does not drive very well.
Other areas we ride in are also a long way between roads - one of my favorite trails in Kooch county is 17 miles as the crow flies between vehicle access points. The trail is 28 miles long and really a great ride. Unfortunately this will all be closed in 2006 or 2008 or whenever the new law takes effect. Most of that huge area will become inaccessible, except to the few lucky enough to get permits to access their cabins. Even those guys will have a rough time as the trail will be used a lot less and they will be doing all the maintenance.
One interesting fact I heard at a meeting the other day. Itasca County has 211+ miles of walking hunter only trails(some of these are even mowed....). They have about 20 miles of designated ATV trails (that can also be walked...).
I don't know about St. Louis or Kooch county, but I do know there are not many designated ATV trail miles. That is going to have to change quickly or we are going to SOL, at least in the state forests.
I have grouse hunted for 20 years with an ATV and enjoy it a lot. So far this year I have seen roughly 50 birds and managed to get 6. I have seen slob hunters, on foot, on ATVs, or in trucks/jeeps/cars. Foot/dog hunters have "saluted" me when I have stopped to ask them if I could pass by them as they were on a thru trail. Others have been very nice and we have had good trail conversation.
We have got to stick together as hunters or we will lose everything. There are good and bad hunters, some on ATV, some on foot, etc. Let's weed them out.
Anyway to get back to the topic of the new law......anybody have any more input on what they have heard/know?

River

[Benny]

ST.

Well,it just isn't worth my time to argue with you.We have had it out many times all with the same out come. We will get this thread locked out if we continue, so good luck on your finding a trail not used by some one else.

Benny

[This message has been edited by Benny (edited 10-22-2003).]

[Surface Tension]

Benny, yep it isnt worth it. Thats why I have a total of 3 breif posts on the subject in the last year.

[Guest]

Traveler,

I'm 13 years younger than you. I am for the most part quite healthy. I use a Grizzley 660 for transporting my gears and myself to and from the general vacinity of my chosen tree for big game hunting. I think this will qualify me to respond to your post.

1) Let's remember that when one is on public land, there will be other hunters who will eventually wander by one's secret spot. Just because one has always hunted that spot for X amount of years does not make it one's land: it belongs to all.

2) Most foot hunters will stay within 3 miles (3 miles is really pushing it) of any given road.

3) I put all my gears (including my climber) and head out 20 minutes, going 20 miles/hour, into the forest (on trails only). That would put me at roughly 6.7 miles. From there I will take my gears off of the ATV and walk 10 minutes to my chosen tree.

If we did away with ATVs just to satisfy the few fanatic antis, there will be more hunters hugging to that 3 miles road side. This will only cause more bi***ing and moaning about over-crowdedness.

The use of noise, fumes, etc, etc. by the fanatics is nonsense. If you were that concern about fumes, noise, etc., etc., you wouldn't be using any modern machineries (automobils, planes, trains, etc..). Isn't it strange that the fanatics have double standards? They sure don't have any problem jumping into an automobil but will complain about ATV noises and exhausts. Hmm???

If I was, up in my climber, big game hunting and hears an ATV drive by during legal hours, no big deal. If I was, up in my climber, big game hunting and hears some foot hunters chatting by, I would be really P.O. Nothing will chase a big game away quicker than the sound of human voice (just something every hunter should know).

BTW, I only use my atv for big game hunting and snow plowing so I do not have any comments regarding ATV road ridings.

[fishnutbob]

I love all you guys gals on foot or atv, when you head into the woods I set up on the edge not far off the road in the woods during deer season and bingo every thing comes my way, some of the biggest bucks up in Orr were shot only 100 yds off the road. I wonder why?

[RiverKarhu]

Well Ladies and Germs, we have just been given a look at the future. A friend just called me, he drove up from the Cities to camp with his two boys. Doing a little grouse hunting and fall camping. They camped and headed over to the trail head and ran into THE SIGN.
After years of work, the Thistledew ATV trail was officially opened this summer. Now, due to the 5 or 6 inches of wet snow we have on the ground, they have closed it until freeze up (according to the MN DNR HSOforum). On Dec 1st it closes until spring.
I have been out riding this week. It is not that wet. I can't believe they would close a trail for a little slop, especially with deer season coming on.
I see Kooch county passed a resolution to ask the state to exempt them from the wetlands rule. Good for them.

River

[traveler]

Hi basshunter, just a couple points there I'd like to respond to; it isn't so much that guys couldn't walk right into my area, just that they didn't until ATV's made the trail. Simple easy access thing. And while I know some of you fellas use atv's to access deep woods, I think you're in the small minority. The trails/areas in Kooch county where we hunt are wthin a mile of the road for the most part. And it's just getting carved with atv use. On trails, logging roads, anywhere the bear hunters decide they might want to put another bait...Again, in the places it makes sense to use atv's to access deep areas, petition for those trails to be labeled open, I'll comprimise. I just want to stop the "drive anywhere I darn well please" attitude that I see. As far as noise/fumes, to each his own, it just doesn't mesh with what I want from my hunt. If it works for you, go for it.

[traveler]

I missed one thing basshunter, I'm not sure if you were putting me in the fanatic group or not But as to the double standard, I don't think it is at all. I fly to mexico because it's too far to walk. I drive to work because it would take to long to walk and I'd have a heck of a time lugging 6 bags of groceries home on my back, not to mention picking up the kids from daycare. Someone riding an atv in the areas I'm talking about has a viable option. Walking. Not 6 miles, but less then one. It might mean they can only cover 2 miles of trail on foot rather then 20 on an ATV. But they make a choice to ride for convienence, I use my car cause I have to.

[Surface Tension]

Does anyone else pack up the family and jump in the car for a sunday drive anymore. You know a spur of the moment kind a thing, putt putt down a country road looking at the countryside and old broken down farms that at one time bustling with life. I do but I guess we could just walk down the road and back instead of taking the car, nah. I own ATVs and sleds and enjoy riding the trails while taking in the sites while exploring new areas so I understand the desire to "ride".
RiverKarhu I'm not familiar with that trail. Is it a snowmobile trail thats open to ATVs in the off season? If so you can understand why its closed.

[RiverKarhu]

Surface -
I don't understand your comment on if it is a snowmobile trail you can understand why it would be closed.
Some of the trail is shared with snowmobiles, some of it is logging road, some is x country ski trail, some is just ATV trail.
The point is that this trail is some of the highest and driest country around here. There are very few muddy spots on this trail, much of it goes thru high sandy ridges.
Around the trail, all the other areas are open to ATVing, logging, 4x4s etc. Some of the trail is used by trucks for logging, cabin access etc. It is not closed for them, only ATVs.
If they close this trail for 5 inches of wet snow, then we are indeed screwed.
Report from the trail, Saturday morning - 14F am. Logging in this area still going on. 1.5" of ice on puddles. The trail is frozen - have they reopened it? I don't see any announcement.

Good luck to everyone this weekend!

River