controlling range

[KING]

working with our 6 month old english setter. we are fortunate to have a large sharptail population on our property. pup is doing very well locating and holding point on wild birds. he has a big motor and drive but tends to get rangey.

not so much a problem at all out in the open as he stays on point pretty well for a pup...but im a bit nervous when we get into woods.

as an example this weekend i invited a friend with a 2 yr. old GSP over to train a bit as i thought it would be good for the pup to work with a more experienced dog. So out scouting we bumpd a covey into a tree row that is maybe 15 yds wide by 400 yds long. We started on one end going into a quartering wind.

The GSP starting quartering the tree row nose to the ground, my pup Setter takes off on the downwind side nose up and locks up about 75 yards out in front of us...my buddy says [PoorWordUsage] is that mutt doing...i said he found a bird...he says no way...so he holds till we get there..i walk in to check and the pup got jumpy behind me and jumped the bird...the only one in the tree row the rest had flown through apparently.

any thoughts on tightening the range without holding him back from being good at what he does?

[onthefly]

No expert here, especially on pointing breeds. My lab is trained to "check in" on either his name or a double whistle. I'm transferring that to a vibe on the collar, so I don't have to whistle or yell his name when I'm trying to sneak up on pheasants, etc.

I'd say you have to get him to not find the bird too far ahead of you.... If he does and locks up on point, that's a good thing and you have to be careful about negative correction in that case.

So, teach range control with a command.. One way is attach a 30' or 50' check cord to your belt, start walking, then change direction on him when he isn't paying attn. He'll start to naturally check in. Then you can add a tone, vibe, whistle or whatever so he associates it.

I'm sure others will have good input and resources.

[raymondk]

let your dog hunt for a pointer long as it holds tight what is the problem. for your dog taking off and coming up wind your dog knows what it doing better then your friend .everybody that has flushing dogs thinks your dog should be 50 feet in front of them .

[setterguy]

So you guys bumped some birds the dog ran downwind and pointed a bird...I see no problem.

Your 6 month old dog will not hunt like a 2 year old dog, and that 2 year old dog won't hunt like a 4 year old dog and a 4 year old dog won't hunt like a 6 year old dog...see my point? (no pun intended)

Let your pointer, be a pointer. Your dog has been bred to do exactly what it did. Run hard, point hard and hold till you can get a shot off which it sounds like you could have...two rules for you and your pup this season.

1. Do not shoot birds that have not been pointed. No matter what. Even if it flies into a tree, even if you are really hungry.

2. Only invite people who agree to follow rule #1.

Personally I wouldn't change a thing. A six month old dog that air scents a bird and holds is on the right track. Just keep taking him out and getting him on as many birds as you can.

[rundrave]

my pup Setter takes off on the downwind side nose up and locks up about 75 yards out in front of us

I wouldn't change a thing! Except maybe get a new hunting partner!

[KING]

yep i think he is on track...and we have had no problem yet in the open...he will check in but as stated he really likes to go and his checks are out of my comfort range not his. if i walk say a 10 or 15 yard zig zag pattern through a field his might be 10x that if i let him go. just nervous when we hit the heavy cover keeping track.

as for the GSP owner...good guy, he just has never seen a setter air scent like that. I just said that is what he gets for having his pheasant dog trying to hunt grouse...any dog can hunt a pheasant...lol.

worked with a 30' check tonight and is way to short. he tended to want to just stop when he felt pressure and we spent more time untangling as anything else. he knows all the basic commands is about all we got worked out for sure.

another problem with the cord was it kind of made him quarter becasue he had freedom left and right (back and forth)...which was pointless walking a tree row.

I dont want to do anything too much as I am under pretty strict advice that he will learn to hunt with me and for me not to mess it up.

I dont know anything about e collars so i have been avoiding them. ill have to study up as i can see the safety factor.

[setterguy]

Using a 30' check cord on your dog is like having a governor on a Ferrari.

Have you had the dog in the woods yet? Some dogs will take a while to figure out the distance in the woods. I would invest in a beeper collar. Makes you feel more comfortable about his whereabouts and many times they are closer than you realize.

What would be your comfortable range in the woods? My current dog is usually about 40-50 yards with the occasional flyer (he's still 2)

I would say this season is all about the experience, I would do little to no correcting. Let the dog hunt, figure things out and sort all that information in his brain out. Get that dog into a woodcock flight and it may fix your problem for you.

[setterguy]

King - I'd love to come up and run a day around there with you and a couple of our dogs. Let you see the potential.

[KING]

we have not been in the woods since he learned to use his nose. i have been keeping him out in the open with the sharptails becasue of the # of experiences he is getting close to daily now. we are hitting about a covey per day or so. once we lose some cover we'll hit the ruffies, or maybe we can run some jackpine stuff that is a little more open.

the woods (cover) does slow him down some as he has obstacles to avoid but that little bugger can still boogey.

the more i think about this it is more of an issue with me than the dog...he always seems to know where i am becasue if i change direction at all he seems to know that pretty quickly.

I'll look into a beeper or gps as well. The gps collars are spendy but would be kind of fun to upload the tracks in google earth and see how well you are covering terrain.

I think I'm just going to let the kid hunt and have fun and work on tuning as we go. I feel better knowing we are on the right track.

[jstrommen13]

I have a German wire hair that is about a year and a half. He is the first pointer I have ever hunted with and trained. I also am uncomfortable about his range. I took him on his first pheasant hunt this last April and he did better than I expected once he settled down and knew what we were doing he would come back and check in by just me whistling. The last time I took him out to the game farm this last Monday he wanted to just run and run . I worry about this cause he slowly creeps after he gets on point. I have had no advice on how to train a pointer so anything would help. I had a lab and she was awesome just wanted something different this time and so far I'm pleased just need a little fine tuning

[Pinusbanksiana]

There is an old adage that says you can take the run out of a dog but you can't put it in. If your pointing dog has the run, let him run and learn to hunt with it.

[setterguy]

This may be a little of track but I think I'm going to try and get to the heart of the issue...

What I'm hear when guys are "uncomfortable" with range is, I don't trust my dog to stay on point when they are far ahead. I think here in lies the issue. If you have a dog that doesn't have a good nose, and creeps after making scent, this is the issue, not the range. If the dog is simply running around the woods aimlessly hunting for itself and not for you, not staying in the "pocket" this is the issue, not the range itself.

Coming from almost any flushing dog to a pointer with some run is going to take some time to adjust, it is a totally different style of hunting. When they are young you have to accept the fact that you may not shoot that many birds, plain and simple. The problem is, guys get impatient and try to reign the dog in so they feel more comfortable that they will be able to get a shot off if they dog find a bird. You should have a lab then. Let the dog run, let him bump birds, let him make mistakes, its all part of the process. Now you can expedite the process by putting them in controlled situations with planted birds in launchers, setting the dog up to come in and once you see they smell the bird and don't lock up, launch the bird. No whoaing in to a point, almost no correction at all. Let them figure out that if they want to get their mouth on that bird they must stop and wait for you...Most dogs of good breeding will figure it out, and once they do watch the range change almost immediately. They may still range a bit, but it will be with a purpose... They soon realize what they are out there for, what the process is and will naturally start hunting a bit closer. Let the process happen, don't try and rush it, and you will be amazed at the possibilities. I think having a good pointing dog in the grouse woods is one of the most beautiful things in this world. There is nothing like hearing that beeper go off, walking in and seeing hundreds of years of breeding coming together in one magical moment.

Don't get frustrated, don't rush it. Stick to a plan of not shooting birds that are bumped, getting the dogs on as many wild birds as possible and you will start to see results.

My current dog is going into his second hunting season, he didn't get much done last year until our last 2-3 times out...now I'm more pumped than ever to get back into the woods.

[jstrommen13]

Thanks setterguy. Any advice as I said helps. Another concern is all the guys I hunt with have labs, should I hunt my pointer with those labs. I would think not but I'd hate to tell a guy I don't want to hunt with him.

[rundrave]

Another concern is all the guys I hunt with have labs, should I hunt my pointer with those labs.

It can be done, but where it becomes a problem is if those labs don't honor or back when your dog goes on point.

[Ufatz]

I'm no big time trainer and do not train pointing dogs. But what I have always used with my Labs is simple and they have all seemed to pick it up quickly: two quick blasts on whistle means "come back toward me". All my dogs are trained to respond INSTANTLY to rapid blasts on whistle, sit on one blast of whistle. So with a new dog, like Abby who will be out first time this fall, I will start by calling her name and then TWO blasts. I assume she's thinking I'm about to blow a bunch of "come back" blasts so turns toward me. I wait until she has moved back in where I want her and then just say "Okay, find the bird" which means go on about your business. For some reason I noticed years ago that dogs will move to left or right as YOU move to left or right and that is helpful. I want her left I turn a little and use my arm in L signal and she will start to pick that up. She already knows hand signals. So fairly quickly I have her moving life a windshield wiper, left to right, in front of me. I'm assuming that by the end of this fall she'll have it down pat. My last lab, Annie, needed nothing other than wave of the hand to come in, go left or right and maybe a two-blast once in a while.

This is just my way and there are other younger guys in here with lots of solid experience who can help. After all: old guys can't be expected to know EVERYTHING! Ha Ha Ha!

[setterguy]

I've never hunted my pointers with flushers. I guess I would make sure the dog was steady and knew the program before I would consider it. I don't run my grouse dogs on pheasants either till they are a little older and have figured grouse out first. I don't think pheasants cooperate and can teach young dogs bad habits that are hard to unlearn..(creeping for example) Once my dogs are older and have the game figured out it seems like they can tell the difference in what a bird will take in the pheasant field and what a bird will take in the grouse woods.

[gspman]

I think that for the most part pointers and flushers shouldn't be hunted together. Most dogs are not well trained enough to perform at the level needed for that kind of hunt. A pointer that hunts beyond gun range (and most should IMHO) will likely pull the flushers out there with them which is bad for the flushers. The flushers may figure out when the dog points there's a bird there and go in and flush which will is bad for the pointer. There are far too many things that can go wrong vs. what can go well.

Best bet is to hunt the pointer on one end of the "line" and stay further off to the side. That'll sort of isolate you and your dog. Pointers work best for pheasants in really small groups in my mind. 1 or 2 guns is best. I've had far better success hunting alone or with ne other person than with 10 guns. Army style line hunting is not a good formula for successful hunting with a pointer in my opinion.

[Setterman]

I would never run a young pointing dog with a flusher you are going to end up screwing the dog up. King I would just keep training on those sharptail make sure the dog stays at 10 and 2 and keep him patterning to the front. It is important to have them out in front of you and not looping to the back of you. It is too hard to put a pattern on a dog in the woods. At some point it would be wise to have him ecollar conditioned. That way you can use the ecollar like a 1 mile long check cord. Then after you have him staying out front at 10 and 2 take him in the woods. I use GPS and bells and sometimes beepers. If you decide to use a bell or a beeper make sure you introduce it at home before you go hunting. With beepers I mute them with cotton and tape so they dont scare the dump out of the dog, with bells I use electrical tape.

[KING]

for sure will look into beeper...gps etc for when we hit some uncontrolled (new) enviroments.

things have been progressing nicely. me and pup are starting to figure each other out more each time.

we half missed a covey yesterday as I got us started on the wrong wind, pup missed a covey downwind of him as he was kind of straightlining by, they were sitting very tight to the edge of a plowing, i whistled him back and he ran right into them flushing the first 2/3 of them, then locked in and i thought he was just pointing to the scent of the flushed birds, but there ended up being a couple left and he held well until i flushed them had a pretty easy shot but no gun...kind of forgot it is open now.

to the point now i need to shoot some for him.