APR 2013?

[TruthWalleyes]

It says more about the editorial staff of each state than anything. MN obviously not interested in an album of horns.

[HNTNBUX]

Yep its called hunting so why is it you have to shoot the baby deer and not hunt for an adult deer and still consider yourself the true hunter.

Regardless of APR or other rules this urbanite will continue to hunt several months and states a year while burning through all of my vacation time and putting countless miles on my new truck. I just might even be wearing new clothes because I wear them more than one weekend a year and find it necessary to replace them more often.

[flipper]

If you all want big deer and a balanced population and horns aren't the issue than why not let the 2 1/2 and older deers walk. They are the ones we want in the herd right? If you get close enough for a shot you have done your part as a good hunter, then let them walk and shoot a younger one for the table.

[HNTNBUX]

They all taste good. The bigger ones are just that, bigger.

FWIW I don't hunt in an APR area but I wish I did. They could make all intensive and managed areas APR as far as I'm concerned but I know that is likely unrealistic.

[Mo Gator]

SmellEsox, you make way too much sense! Good posts!

[SmellEsox]

BLACKJACK, here are my thoughts on this. I live in Little Falls and hunt in 221 and 215 quite a bit. In 2011 prefawn population estimates were in the 10-11 deer/sq mi area. This is prime deer country on the transition between ag and forest. Great productive deer habitat. How many of those 10-11 deer are bucks and does? 60:40 does to bucks? Probably. So there are 6 or 7 does and 4 or 5 bucks in there. Now, how many of those are yearling deer? No doubt the majority. So you have 2 or 3 adult does and, if you are lucky, maybe one 2.5 year old buck in your group of 4 or 5 bucks. The rest are yearlings. There are also 9 hunters per sq mile in 221. How on earth are there going to be huntable numbers of mature bucks in the population if there isn't some type of management, whether legislated or voluntary, to allow bucks to reach maturity? It absolutely is not possible to allow hunters to basically kill every deer they see (221 is 5 deer again this year!) and still produce mature deer. Yes a few big deer get killed every year in every county. But to say that a guy can just hunt harder/scout harder and find a big deer to hunt is not something that can be done on any kind of consistent basis. The guys I know that consistently kill bigger deer either 1) own a big chunk of land, or 2) have permission on a nice chunk of land along Camp Ripley. Permission on these lands is very tight. I've tried.

[SmellEsox]

BTW, unless the DNR increased their population goals for 215 and 221, there is no way APR could possibly be instituted in these management zones. There aren't nearly enough deer there to keep all hunters happy. So I'm really barking up a dead dogs rear end unless populations are allowed to increase significantly. Hard to let that happen with high commodity prices.

BTW, some of the figures in my last post were pulled out of thin air. LOL! But they seem logical to me.

[TruthWalleyes]

The last 4-5 years i have flat out seen 2-3x as many deer in a lottery zone (295 & 238) than i have in the magical APR land where i do the majority of my hunting (347/348). I would love to see 295/238 go to hunters choice.

There is also TONS of public management land in 295/238 and i hunt the thickest cattails where 99% of people avoid. 347/348 is heavily wooded (In areas) and that could be why i see much less deer over there. There is also next to NO public land.

Granted, i'm completely satisfied with my daily numbers of deer seen ranging from 3-60 per day. I think there was 1 day last year (Hunted 20) where i didn't see a single deer. I still don't get how the lottery zones 238/295 only give out a combined 300 doe tags when i've seen 300 does herded up on the last day of muzzleloader season.

I'm very selective on pulling the trigger, don't need horn regulations, and don't care what my neighbors shoot as long as they aren't shooting at me..

Honestly, when i'm sitting in the lanesboro or preston bar (Doesn't even have to be during deer season) i can't believe how many times i have someone pull out their cell phones and show me the latest big antlers...I could care less. I just find it funny though, that area friggen loves antlers. It's a totally different attitude in a SW MN bar. I don't hear anyone complaining about not enough antler inches...

Totally different cultures i guess.

[mntatonka]

The last 4-5 years i have flat out seen 2-3x as many deer in a lottery zone (295 & 238) than i have in the magical APR land where i do the majority of my hunting (347/348). I would love to see 295/238 go to hunters choice.

There is also TONS of public management land in 295/238 and i hunt the thickest cattails where 99% of people avoid. 347/348 is heavily wooded (In areas) and that could be why i see much less deer over there. There is also next to NO public land.

Granted, i'm completely satisfied with my daily numbers of deer seen ranging from 3-60 per day. I think there was 1 day last year (Hunted 20) where i didn't see a single deer. I still don't get how the lottery zones 238/295 only give out a combined 300 doe tags when i've seen 300 does herded up on the last day of muzzleloader season.

I'm very selective on pulling the trigger, don't need horn regulations, and don't care what my neighbors shoot as long as they aren't shooting at me..

Honestly, when i'm sitting in the lanesboro or preston bar (Doesn't even have to be during deer season) i can't believe how many times i have someone pull out their cell phones and show me the latest big antlers...I could care less. I just find it funny though, that area friggen loves antlers. It's a totally different attitude in a SW MN bar. I don't hear anyone complaining about not enough antler inches...

Totally different cultures i guess.

It's only the loud ones down here complaining about not having big enough antlers, the majority of us are perfectly happy in our little corner of the state, and are happy to keep quiet about it so people don't come in buying up land and forcing us out of our hunting areas.

[PurpleFloyd]

So there are 500,000 hunters and the success rate is 33% according to the above stats. 30 % of 500,000 is 150,000 and 33% success rate equals about 50,000 deer. The deer herd is estimated to be 1 Million deer. I am not exactly sure how those numbers support the notion that even if they wanted to, that they could actually kill 90% of the year class.And if they did, there would be a lot of every other year class left over.

[psepuncher]

low population

and less vegetation

like I've been saying to those who choose to still say that the habitat in MN is perfect. The only place unaffected to the opposite extreme of dry soil is in SE MN....go figure.

The Midwest:

Lack of recent precipitation is beginning to be felt throughout the region. Abnormal Dryness (D0) expanded across eastern Illinois and into western Indiana, in northern Michigan, and across most of Minnesota and parts of Wisconsin. Likewise, Moderate Drought (D1) expanded in Minnesota and northern Wisconsin. Cooler temperatures have helped abate the lack of moisture lately but that could be changing as above-normal temperatures are expected in the area over the next two weeks.

[PurpleFloyd]

BLACKJACK, here are my thoughts on this. I live in Little Falls and hunt in 221 and 215 quite a bit. In 2011 prefawn population estimates were in the 10-11 deer/sq mi area. This is prime deer country on the transition between ag and forest. Great productive deer habitat. How many of those 10-11 deer are bucks and does? 60:40 does to bucks? Probably. So there are 6 or 7 does and 4 or 5 bucks in there. Now, how many of those are yearling deer? No doubt the majority. So you have 2 or 3 adult does and, if you are lucky, maybe one 2.5 year old buck in your group of 4 or 5 bucks. The rest are yearlings. There are also 9 hunters per sq mile in 221. How on earth are there going to be huntable numbers of mature bucks in the population if there isn't some type of management, whether legislated or voluntary, to allow bucks to reach maturity? It absolutely is not possible to allow hunters to basically kill every deer they see (221 is 5 deer again this year!) and still produce mature deer. Yes a few big deer get killed every year in every county. But to say that a guy can just hunt harder/scout harder and find a big deer to hunt is not something that can be done on any kind of consistent basis. The guys I know that consistently kill bigger deer either 1) own a big chunk of land, or 2) have permission on a nice chunk of land along Camp Ripley. Permission on these lands is very tight. I've tried.

Statewide the deer population is estimated at 1 million. There are 500000 hunters that have a .33 percent success rate total. We took 192000 deer out of 1 million a year or 2 ago. If hunters did take all the yearlings then there were a whole mess of mature left over for the next year.

[nonteepical]

one million deer and a 2;1 doe to buck ratio is 666 thousand antlerless and 300 thousand bucks in the population. kill 100,000 bucks a year and you have a turnover rate every 3 years. shoot 70% yearlings for 30 years you end up with a young buck population, shoot 5 year old deer at a 70% rate you would end up with a old buck population.

[PurpleFloyd]

Or more likely harvest whichever buck god chooses to send your way and be happy he provided for you. One year it may be a yearling, one year it may be 3 years old and one year it may be 4 years old. He knows what you need and will provide it.

[nonteepical]

Absolutly true so now you can't use the excuse you hunt for meat because he will provide no matter what.

[PurpleFloyd]

Absolutly true so now you can't use the excuse you hunt for meat because he will provide no matter what.

He does. Sometimes it has a few points, sometimes none and some times quite a few. No excuses needed.sometimes even no deer at all but we divide them among the party so everyone shares in the harvest.

[BLACKJACK]

Honestly, when i'm sitting in the lanesboro or preston bar (Doesn't even have to be during deer season) i can't believe how many times i have someone pull out their cell phones and show me the latest big antlers...I could care less. I just find it funny though, that area friggen loves antlers. It's a totally different attitude in a SW MN bar. I don't hear anyone complaining about not enough antler inches...

Totally different cultures i guess.

It is a different deer hunting culture in SE MN. I lived south of Rochester about 15 years ago, when the seasons were split into buck and doe seasons and I had a neighbor kid tell me "real deer hunters only hunt the buck season". Having grown up in a deer zone where even doe tags were treasured, it was a real head shaker.

[BLACKJACK]

Don't wan't to get in on the pizzing match here but a handful of buck photos in any magazine proves absolutely nothing for either side when you are talking about a buck harvest of 100K animals. Any county in the state should be able to put together a similar group of pictures, again it proves nothing.

Thats my point, if any county in the state can produce big bucks - as proved by pictures in ODN and on bait shop walls - why do we need APR?

[mntatonka]

It is a different deer hunting culture in SE MN. I lived south of Rochester about 15 years ago, when the seasons were split into buck and doe seasons and I had a neighbor kid tell me "real deer hunters only hunt the buck season". Having grown up in a deer zone where even doe tags were treasured, it was a real head shaker.

That's steadily changing. There's still the old guys that will only hunt the first season, and still even call it the "buck season", but more and more are realizing there isn't a buck season any more. There never was a "doe" season, because the 3B hunters could always shoot their bucks as well. The only people that tended to call it a doe season were the hunters that hunted the first season. The rest of us were happy to go along shooting our bucks and does and having an extra couple of days off work/school to hunt.

[TruthWalleyes]

It's still buck season down there

I hunt 3A because 3B's last weekend is the 1st weekend of muzzleloader, so i get two more days in the woods when i hunt 3A and ML. I also get to enjoy the beloved 1st day where the deer don't see it coming

[Bear55]

Thats my point, if any county in the state can produce big bucks - as proved by pictures in ODN and on bait shop walls - why do we need APR?

I'm not advocating we do, just trying to find some middle ground between those for and against it. An impossible task I am sure.

[mntatonka]

I'm not advocating we do, just trying to find some middle ground between those for and against it. An impossible task I am sure.

Good middle ground would be "education, not regulation."

[SmellEsox]

BLACKJACK, despite big bucks being shot all over the state, supply isn't meeting demand. There should be way more being shot than there currently are.

[Bear55]

There are also 9 hunters per sq mile in 221. How on earth are there going to be huntable numbers of mature bucks in the population if there isn't some type of management, whether legislated or voluntary, to allow bucks to reach maturity?

This is really the issue, the deer are under a ton of pressure so unless you have a lot of land locked up and everyone cooperating its tough to get results by passing young deer when a lot of them are whipped out opening weekend of rifle season.

The thing a lot of people don't talk about is even if a buck lives to be old under these conditions they are extremely hard to kill. They are masters of survival and by the time they hit those peak ages they rarely move during shooting hours because if they did they would already be dead. In states with a lot of older bucks the deer either aren't pressured as hard, have been passed up numerous times, they might have a lot more competition for does and it can just be a simple numbers name, a lot more of them around so your odds of running into one go up.

[Bear55]

Good middle ground would be "education, not regulation."

That is fine but education just doesn't work all that well, something about old dogs and new tricks. Right now I just hope for a decent population to hunt, that usually means there are plenty of deer to go around and some nice bucks slip through the cracks.