Pointers vs. Flushers for Upland Family - Grouse

[setterguy]

King - our dogs could be twins. In all probability they are probably pretty close genetically. I'd love to see the breeding on your dog. As far as a house pet, the pups that Jack has thrown are some of the most personable, loving and well mannered hunting dogs I've come across. Jack was a special one. Good luck with that pup...

[setterguy]

At one year

[ETH310]

Congrats, that's a good looking pup. Good luck with him.

[harvey lee]

Nice action shot of the pointer on point.

[TylerS]

Nice pointer pics! Love looking at a locked up dog. Never get sick of that sight.

Tyler, i would love to see that. NO, I am not questioning you about your statement, just seeing a dog work like that in the field.

Im more old school and do not let my GSP range that far mainly because my hunting partners all have an attack because "I cant shoot that far". Well son, its not about how far you can shoot, let the dog work.

I dont get out as much as I used to but would love to see some dogs covering a field like that.

"Too Far Out" is all relative. I had a guy I used to hunt with who had terrible vision and my dad's dog wasnt even 15 yards in front of him and he was hollering for my dad to call it back. LOL

I kept telling him all his shouting was spooking birds and to just let the dog work and be amazed when he's on point and you can have it flush at your feet!

I hear ya. Not something that's very common, but I think it wouldn't be so uncommon if people just let their dogs do what they're supposed to do.

If you're a flusher hunter, I can understand wanting a close working dog. But I have a pointer for a reason. When Remy takes off, I don't want to say a word if I can help it. That means he can run wherever he wants, and I expect him to find a bird, point, and hold until I get up there to flush it.

My best friend is just like the guy you were talking about. Has a GREAT pointer, but doesn't trust him. The dog takes off and gets 50 yards when my buddy starts yelling at him. Drives me NUTS.

Let the dogs work. Who cares about bumped birds. Way I see it, that's training. If Remy bumps a bird, he feels bad before I have the time to holler at him. The next time he'll be more careful. It all works out.

[CaptainMusky]

Oh I trust my dog just fine its the guys I hunt with who don't own dogs who have the problem. When I hunt alone I met him range out big time, but the buddies don't understand how its supposed to work. For self preservation I just found it easier to keep him close than to listen to their belly aching.

[setterguy]

Tyler/CM - That is one of the main qualities that our trials looked for was adapting to cover. Our grounds were made up of open space and woods and the dog should be able to adapt to each type of cover. Its a beautiful thing when done correctly.

[Setterman]

Tyler/CM - That is one of the main qualities that our trials looked for was adapting to cover. Our grounds were made up of open space and woods and the dog should be able to adapt to each type of cover. Its a beautiful thing when done correctly.

Which field trial do you run?

[setterguy]

ABHA - American Bird Hunters Association, our group is (MBHA) Minnesota. Walking trials, with gallery. Very family friendly atmosphere. Trials are usually held in Milaca at the Four Brooks training grounds.

[TylerS]

Hey, that sounds like fun! Wish it was closer. What are the qualifications?

[setterguy]

There are 3 divisions, puppy, derby and shooting dog. Puppies don't really need to do anything perfectly as they are looking for potential more than anything. Finding and holding birds certainly helps your cause though. Derby's are expected to handle better, hunt cover, find and at least hold birds for a bit but will not be disqualified for bumping birds. Shooting dogs are expected to be finished. Handle, run hard, hunt the whole run, find, hold and retrieve birds. They do disqualify dogs for out of contact for too long, bumping birds and failure to retrieve. Shooting dogs are also expected to honor points...many times this may be used as a decider between two dogs that have similar braces.

I haven't had a trial ready dog for some time, so I'm not up on all the rules but I don't think the dogs need to be steady to shot in the MBHA trials. Ben Berg could chime in and correct all the mistakes I'm sure I just made.

[TylerS]

NAVHDA dogs (at least UT and IT) are expected to do all of those things. I wonder if Remy would make a good trial dog...

[setterguy]

The club was made specifically to be a little more low key. Many many people who show up for the trials are new or just starting. Come check one out. There is usually one in the spring and fall. Fun event, some very nice dogs and even better people. No deductions for partial tails either. Although there should be.

[TylerS]

No deductions for partial tails either. Although there should be.

Good to know

[Cobra]

I agree with Setter Guy!

I own English Pointers (Pointers) and live in grouse country (Northern Minnesota).

These breeds are the standards for grouse across the country. A shorthair is a good dog too. I quit grouse hunting for a while because the guy I used to hunt with had a Brit. The thing would bump my dogs point, bite my dog while he was retrieving the bird, take the bird from him and eat it..... It was either I shot his dog or quit hunting with him!

As far as flushers.... I hunted behind some and had to run through swamps and brush to keep up and by the time the bird flushed I was too tired to shoot! I like letting the dog hunt and then walk up to a point safely and flush the bird for a cleaner shot!

Here is some hard Data for you:

Winners of The Grand National Grouse Championship

1943 Pointer Male

1944 Hall's Black Rocket, Setter male.

1945 Placements Withheld

1946 Burton's Fleetfoot Ginger, Setter Male.

1947 The Texas Traveler, Pointer Male.

Runner-Up Hall's Black Rocket, Setter Male. 1948 Placements Withheld

1949 Sam L's Skyhigh, Setter male

Runner-Up Contender Spunky Delight, Pointer male.

1950 Sam L's Skyhigh, Setter male.

1951 Trebor's Dutchess, Setter female.

1952 Mistress Pretty Bones, Pointer female.

1953 Puckety Village Boy, Pointer male.

1954 Tyson's Skyhills Flash, Pointer male.

Runner-Up Tancanhoosen Hunter, Pointer male.

1955 Retina, Setter female.

1956 Retina, Setter female.

Runner-Up Larray, Pointer male.

1957 Placements Withheld

1958 Vigorous, Pointer male.

1959 Doc's Girl Sis, Pointer female.

1960 Sam L's Rebel, Setter male.

1961 Sam L's Rebel, Setter male.

1962 Elhew Lucy Brown, Pointer female.

1963 Orchard Valley Melody, Setter male.

1964 Placements withheld

1965 Brenda Wahoo, Pointer female.

Runner-Up Sam L's Nabob, Setter male.

1966 Hussy, Setter female.

1967 Elhew Holly , Pointer female.

1968 Elhew Holly , Pointer female.Elhew

Runner-Up Sam L's Sequoia, Setter male.

1969 Ghost Train, Setter male.

1970 Grouse Ridge Will, setter male.

1971 Placements Withheld

1972 Pleasant Valley Liz, Setter female.

1973 Pleasant Valley Liz, Setter female.

1974 Elhew Flying Dutchman, Pointer male.

1975 Jetrain, Setter male.

Runner-Up Pleasant Valley Clyde, Setter male.

1976 Pleasant Valley Clyde, Setter male.

1977 Teaberry, Setter male.

Runner-UpWyola Jupiter, Pointer male.

1978 Ghost's Star, Setter female.

Runner-UpPleasant Valley Mandy, Setter female.

1979 Pleasant Valley Clyde, Setter male.

Runner-UpKumari Elhew Suzie, Pointer female.

1980 Lou's Astro Accelerator, Pointer, male.

Runner-Up-Police Woman, Pointer female.

1981 Heartbreaker , Setter female.

Runner-Up-Pleasant Valley Mandy, Setter female.

1982 The Sportsman's Briar, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Little John Boy, Pointer male.

1983 Andy's Safari Sami, Setter female.

1984 Stokley's Diablo Jake, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Decathon Man, Setter male.

1985 Penelope, Pointer female.

Runner-Up-Tip Top Mollie, Setter female.

1986 Spring Garden Keeper , Setter female.

Runner-Up-North Island Samantha, Setter female.

1987 Honey B, Setter female.

1988 Skyline Patty, Setter female.

1989 Northern Alibi, Setter male.

1990 Grover, Setter male.

1991 Loleta, Pointer female.

Runner-Up-Autumn Thunder, Pointer female..

1992 Stillmeadows Jim , Setter male.

Runner-Up-Cracker Jack Train, Setter male

1993 Crystal Light, Setter female.

Runner-Up-Star's Misty Ghost, Setter female

1994 Grouse Ridge Storm, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Jet's Aimee, Setter female

1995 Paucek's Tommyknocker, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Thunderstruck, Setter female

1996 Elhew Autumn Whisper, Pointer female.

Runner-Up-Kalamity Seekah, Setter female

1997 Body Guard, Setter male.

Runner-Up-Thunderstruck, Setter female

Dr. Tim Pershke, owner and handler.

1998 Elhew Autumn Whisper, Pointer female.

1999 Seneca's Autmn Reign, Setter female.

Runner-Up-Ghost Train Bell, Setter female

2000 Holy Smoke, Pointer male.

Runner-Up-Chip's Super Chunk, Setter male

2001 Beaver Meadow Bette, Pointer female.

2002 Movelle's Gypysy, Pointer female.

2003 Hard Driving Bev, Pointer female.

[DP]

I have a 5 year old English Cocker, very sweet lovable family dog and a great upland bird hunter. He has a very soft mouth (can retrieve a water balloon intact) and works very close. I haven't duck hunted much in recent years but he loves the water and was doing water retrieves since he was a pup. I wanted a med/smaller size dog, mine is about 35lbs (male). No regrets...

[Setterman]

It would only take a couple of hunting trips with a properly trained pointing dog to understand. My buddy hunted a spaniels for grouse for his whole life. He had since taken up duck and goose hunting and has a Chessie. I convinced him to go grouse hunting with me and another buddy. When I let the dog out and it tore into the woods out of sight he almost crapped his pants. He told me stories of how he hunted with the flusher and how I needed to keep my dog in closer. 3 limits of grouse and 2 limits of woodcock later, he gave up on the argument and conceded.

[setterguy]

It would only take a couple of hunting trips with a properly trained pointing dog to understand. My buddy hunted a spaniels for grouse for his whole life. He had since taken up duck and goose hunting and has a Chessie. I convinced him to go grouse hunting with me and another buddy. When I let the dog out and it tore into the woods out of sight he almost crapped his pants. He told me stories of how he hunted with the flusher and how I needed to keep my dog in closer. 3 limits of grouse and 2 limits of woodcock later, he gave up on the argument and conceded.

I think here in lies the issue. Most people have never hunted behind a good honest pointer in the woods.

[Pherris]

Looks like you got yourself a nice pup there King!

Setterguy, A little off topic but as i understand it the Grand National Grouse Championship is only open to pointing breeds is that correct?

Good Hunting!

[Pinusbanksiana]

It is not about what kind of dog is better, it is about what an individual wants to do with his time in the woods. Personal choice. Nothing more.

[Pherris]

It is not about what kind of dog is better, it is about what an individual wants to do with his time in the woods. Personal choice. Nothing more.

+1

[Ufatz]

Any poor red blooded soul who has not known the joy of hunting over a well mannered pointing dog has missed one of lifes greatest treasures. Is there anything more pretty on a crisp, sunny fall day?

Love it.

[CaptainMusky]

Any poor red blooded soul who has not known the joy of hunting over a well mannered pointing dog has missed one of lifes greatest treasures. Is there anything more pretty on a crisp, sunny fall day?

Love it.

I dont believe there is. I will seriously miss having my faithful companion by my side this fall and watching his coat bristle while on point. Every muscle in is body tense and bulging. RIP Chester!

There is nothing that says you cannot be effective or have fun with flushing dogs, but well trained pointers are an absolute blast to hunt behind. I am a convert. Had flushers many years ago, then hunted behind a pointer and I was absolutely hooked.

[setterguy]

Listen my comment about most guys not hunting behind an honest dog in the woods was not meant to disparage any other breed. My comment was made to make a point that many people have hunted behind bad pointing dogs that run far ahead, bump birds and give people the wrong impression of what is possible.

I know many people who have had good flushers that eventually get to hunt with a good pointer and are converted. I've never heard of someone with a good pointer that all of a sudden wants to hunt behind a flusher. That in itself tells me a lot.

Keep in mind this is about grouse only. The habitat they live in, the temperament of the bird bodes to more success when a bird is located 20+ yards ahead and one can prepare for a shot, I don't see any logical argument to the contrary. I know many people have lots of success with flushers in the grouse woods...I would just be willing to bet that there would be more with a good pointing dog.

Change the playing field to a pheasant field and my opinion changes. What makes a pointer a good grouse dog can be a detriment on the prairies and in cattails. Same deal, there are plenty of guys that shoot pheasants behind a pointer but I'd bet that their success would go up if they had a good flushing dog.

Just have to figure out whats important and how you like to hunt.

Pherris - Yes only open to pointing dogs.

[caseymcq]

Any poor red blooded soul who has not known the joy of hunting over a well mannered pointing dog has missed one of lifes greatest treasures. Is there anything more pretty on a crisp, sunny fall day?

Love it.

Possibly not anything more pretty on a sunny fall day...

But on an overcast, cold, late fall morning, a lab cruising back to the blind with a drake mallard in his/her mouth...