Scopes for ML's

[harvey lee]

I would agree that the 16 day season is a bit longer than it may need to be.

At least for me, I have the luxury of being able to hunt every day if I choose.

But, for those who work 5 days a week, the 16 day season then allows for a working man the opportunity to at least hunt 2 weekends.

We could change that to a 6 day season and some would only be able to hunt the 2 days on the weekend.

So, in reality. the 16 day season only works for those who are not working or retired, the balance do not have the time for the 16 days. One could plan to go ML hunting and have to work, have a deathn in the family or another emergency and the longer season still aloows that hunter to get out for a few days on the next weekend.

That may be the reason the DNR decided to allow for a longer season to simply allow the working man a few more opportunites that the select few who can go out daily. They can still only harvest 1 deer unless they of course hunt an Intensive harvest area.

[lakevet]

Personally for me, I would like to see scopes allowed. I know I can shoot more accurate with a scope than I can with iron sights at 75-100 yards. Allows for me to make a much better shot and a better kill on the animal.

Night hunting with night vision or spotlights, bait piles, scopes and centerfire rifle would allow me to kill deer cleanly and basically easier than open sighted muzzleloader during daylight. Using the excuse that you need more technology to make you a better shot so harvest the animal more cleanly is always there.

We must decide to accept certain limitations in technology, and decide how hard we want to work on those skills you can't just buy off the shelf.

Stick with open sights, get a peep sight if eyes are older and practice. Besides Harvey, us older guys should be smarter and able to get closer to compensate for our decreasing eyesight Working out a strategy to get closer is the challenge. And getting closer is a large part of the satisfaction of muzzleloading for many, especially those who pushed to start a muzzleloading season in the first place. Otherwise just be honest and say you want to extend the rifle season another 16 days.

Also glad to hear more people open to the idea of going back to pick a season firearm or muzzleloading, not both. That buck only has to dodge you and your longer range weapon for 16 days not 32 days. And someone else just might get permission to muzzleload hunt that private land owned by those whose rifle/shotgun season is over for the year. Helps spread out hunting pressure and opens more access for those who don't have land.

No to scopes. Period.

Usually there is a counter bill that appears that would force all to use sidelock weapons percussion or flinters to cause a compromise to leave it as is.

lakevet

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

We must decide to accept certain limitations in technology

I have seen this thought posted so many times.... Lets go through your current hunting and fishing equipment you own and we can all decipher whats acceptable within technology limits...... I bet we could glean out a lot of things as a group that we may consider "unnecessary".

Cheers to scopes on muzzleloaders!!!!

[Jameson]

I'm for allowing scopes on Muzzleloaders.

If you don't want to use a scope you don't have to. If guys are forced to choose ML or firearms then they will just go ahead and shoot the first deer they see during firearms instead of waiting, and we will end up going hunting less for the same amount of deer killed. If we want to limit the deer killed the way is to reduce the number of tags available (see this past Fall.)

[Gordie]

One could say the same thing about archery hutning with the compounds, the rifles of today.

One could also look at the gear used today for fishing versus years ago.

Is the ML season called a traditional ML season or a ML season? I understand how you feel about scopes but that does not mean it should be that way it is for all.

If you would like to not use a scope if the law were to change, you would not have too. You could go back to a flintlock if that is what you would choose to hunt with. Some in archery choose to use a longbow, some an compound. I would never tell another archer he has to use the same type gear I do. If that is the weapon he would like to use, have it then. As stated above, the deer is dead either way.

I would be much more concerned about hunters using others tags like thier wife's than what they used legally to shoot the deer with.

Times change

Happt Birthday also.

I too would not tell anyone how they should hunt,and these are just my opinions about the sport.

I also think that when you start to compare all the other things that are brought up to date with technology that it is just a simple cop-out,

So it would be easy for me to say well such and such states don't even allow Hy-vis sites on the black-powder guns or maybe we should have a early muzzy season like some other states do.

You could also go as far as saying that if scopes are allowed on muzzle loaders, why not just keep the rifle season open longer and make it a all in one season.

I love to hunt and spend as much if not more time in the feild as the next guy ,but I just dont think their is a need for a scope on a muzzle loader.

I also have weaker eyes than when I started shooting my muzzy and am now wearing glasses so I know that its not easy to always see the sites ,but that means more practice I guess.

I also would like to hunt with a flintlock and plan to do so. but first I have to build that gun. I am currently building a in-line that I will most likley use for firearms season as I really don't need the rifle were I hunt and not even sure if I will scope it.

Yea, times are changing but is for the good of the sport or the good personal perference,and each time we change it alittle a lot seems to be lost from our past traditions. You can see that that in almost everything we do for recreation.

Thanks for the birthday wishes and hope you caught a few kittys today.

[harvey lee]

Yes, had a good day with the kitties.

I may be in the minority but I simply do not see what it could hurt to allow scopes.

The DNR decides how many deer they want harvested, not sure how a scope would change anything.

I can practice all I want but it will not make the iron sights any clearer at 75 plus yards. The scope would help for sure, thats why I use them on all my rifles.

[nonteepical]

Muzzleloader season only accounts for about 7,000 deer in the harvest numbers, i doubt a scope is going to ruin the deer herd.

[candiru]

The DNR controls the harvest to some extent. They cannot control the weather conditions or corn harvest either of which can cause changes to the projected harvest.

Allowing scopes would have the biggest effect in the open spaces of southern MN where the herd has been hurting for a while now with very few does permits available after the all-season license disaster. They now have 3x9 muzzleloader scopes calibrated out to 250yds. That combined with the extra shooting time early and late in the day (particularly on dark cloudy days) could become a factor.

I agree with others. Let's go back to pick-a-season and live with it. Hopefully it will cut back on some of the manipulations and abuses of "party tagging". If we are going to allow scopes on muzzleloaders, just open it up to all legal weapons for the area for the "B" (formerly muzzleloader) season.

[hockeybc69]

Why would scopes be a major impact to the deer herd in Southern MN, if the permits are already limitiing the number of deer that can be harvested?

Would scopes potentially make it possible to harvest more deer? Sure. But it surely isnt going to increase the harvest significantly.

And I know the rebuttle will be, "one more deer harvested is too many"....

[Gordie]

Why would scopes be a major impact to the deer herd in Southern MN, if the permits are already limitiing the number of deer that can be harvested?

Would scopes potentially make it possible to harvest more deer? Sure. But it surely isnt going to increase the harvest significantly.

And I know the rebuttle will be, "one more deer harvested is too many"....

To be totally honest I wasn’t even concerned of the deer harvest, it’s not about that and if I have to explain why then you really don't understand traditions that should be kept for certain things. I know that people will say if you want to hunt traditional then you still can so with that if you want to hunt with a scoped muzzy you can do that during file and shot gun season too.

Also and it happens now with shotguns that some people just will have to take that shot no matter what the distance is and end up wounding deer instead of harvesting.

Basically to many out of range shots will be taken, but this is not the real reason behind my opinion and like I stated its just my opinion

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

Also and it happens now with shotguns that some people just will have to take that shot no matter what the distance is and end up wounding deer instead of harvesting.

I dont think there is anything thats going to change that mindset in certain people. No matter what the rules are... We have that subset of the hunting community that has the "shoot at all costs" attitude.

[harvey lee]

Muzzleloader season only accounts for about 7,000 deer in the harvest numbers, i doubt a scope is going to ruin the deer herd.

You hit the nail no the head.

This is real simple, some just do not like it and you are suppose to hunt the way they feel the season should be.

Nothing would change if they allowed scopes. Yes, there could be longer shots but they would be better shots more than likely. People have always taken shots they should not so nothing would change.

On top of all of that, nowhere in the laws or regs do I see or have I ever seen anything about the Traditional muzzleloader deer season, I believe it is the ml season. Some seem to want to believe that is it is suppose to be or was meant to

Thats fine you want to call the season a traditional one Gordie, but I do not call it that and never will.

That's your assumption of what the season is Gordie. Others do not assume the same.

Why should everyone have to hunt the traditional way you would like too? It's not the law or the way the regs were written. Lot's of assuming again.

NO, I do not understand why I should have to hunt this way because you say it is tradition. Yes, I am confused and do not understand.

[Spike76]

Hopefully you all will get older and still want to ML hunt. In low light and aging eyes, open sights aren't as accurate as a red dot or scope. This would help the older hunters.

[harvey lee]

The other issue I have is with my tri focals, very hard to shoot with open sights accuratly. To much blur with the iron sights. I am sure I am not the only one in this situation. The scope does help and quite a bit.

Has nothing to do with taking a poor shot for me as I will not do that. But, I would like to make an accurate shot at 75 to 100 yards and not shot and hope I hit it in a killing location.

At 75 yards, I can put the iron sights on a deer and have no idea where the bullet will hit as I am not sure where the sight is on the deer. I would rather not have to quit ML hunting.

With a scope on my rifle, I can easily make a shot to 250 plus or longer with my coyote gun.

The scope would help alot of hunters. To me, it only makes sense to allow them if for nothing more than a person making a much better shot every time. I am not looking to push my shots to 150 yards but I would like to take the 75 yard shot with a killing shot.

[Gordie]

So HL you keep saying that because I don't want scopes on ML that everyone shouldn't have one well the same goes for what your saying . Because of your failing eyesight it should be legal.

Do you know the reasons behind the rules not saying its a traditional ML hunt ,well that's because before the introduction of inline muzzle loaders all that was available were traditional muzzle loaders.

Another thing that was brought up was protecting the deer herd and I don't believe that ever mention that as a problem and it is what was brought up people wanting scopes maybe this not about the deer herd and actually a way to try and keep something more traditional.

[harvey lee]

Noone has to use a scope if it were to be legal. One could use what they please, just like using an inline or a flintlock, hunters choice.

I never knew that the ML season was started and it was to be traditional, least I have never seen that in print.

I have no issue at all with you wanting to hunt the traditional way Gordie, I would simply like to use a scope as others would.

I have to believe there is a way for all to hunt the gear they please as long as it is legal.

Same thing could be said for shotguns with a rifled barrel or not, hunters choice.

We will simply have to agree to disagree as you would rather not see any advanced in technology and I would like to see it.

[hockeybc69]

Its the age old argument.... where is the line to be drawn to say enough is enough....

Seems the line continues to move...

[Gordie]

Its the age old argument.... where is the line to be drawn to say enough is enough....

Seems the line continues to move...

Yes where do you draw the line.

Thats like saying because I can't hit a deer with my bow at 35 yards I should be able to use a cross bow during archery season and while I'm at it ill want a scope on it .

I also don't have problems with technology .

[cavalierowner]

The real issue is how far to we take technology? We now have the technology to set up a remote controlled rifle that can be fired from anywhere. So when I get too old to go into the woods or tolerate the cold, I'll just use that technology and shoot at deer from the comfort of my living room chair. NOT!!! I actually hope I die before something like that comes to be. But in the end, it's not what we as hunters want or don't want, it's what the legislature feels is best for us.

In the meantime I'll continue to do like I have done the past two years and carry my ML with the open sights during both rifle and ML season. When I get too old to shoot accurately with open sights, I'll decide whether to quit hunting altogether or go back to just rifle season with my scoped .308.

[harvey lee]

Your chances are much better with a compound bow than a crossbow at 35 yards Gordie. Much better.

I have no issues with crossbows. It gives those who cannot phyically draw back a compound or long bow to still be able to archery hunt with a crossbow.

I agree technology has come a long ways but scopes have been around forever, nothing new there.

I also will continue to hunt with my ML. I will shoot the best I can and let the chips fall where they may.

I talked with my State rep today and asked how he felt about this change, he said he was all for it. Others have told me the same thing.

But, you do not have to worry as the Dem's are almost totally against it. So, no scopes looks to be the program unless there is a big swing in the votes.

[hockeybc69]

Quote:

I talked with my State rep today and asked how he felt about this change, he said he was all for it. Others have told me the same thing.

But, you do not have to worry as the Dem's are almost totally against it. So, no scopes looks to be the program unless there is a big swing in the votes.

I hate the legislators make these decisions...... How many of them even know what a muzzleloader is?

[Gordie]

All I can say is contact your representatives and voice your concerns know matter which way you view it that can hurt.

Oh and Harvey a muzzy is even better than the compound at 35 yards.

If it were legal would I put one on my muzzy ...most likely I would . I would just rather not have it as an option for that season is all.

[harvey lee]

I have no idea what you are even babbling about Gordie.

I have no idea how more practice can make ones eyes see better. You must have special eyes.

[ASMOLEY]

I would use a scope if given the option.

Where do you draw the line? How many of you that oppose scopes for ML still use a flintlock with a conical? Just like archery hunting, if you want to traditional use a recurve!

Bag limits and zones will control the harvest regardless of the method used to take a game.

[Wanderer]

I say "No" also.

And I have a scope for my muzzle loader. I got it for out of state hunts that allow scoped muzzle loaders. And not all of our neighboring states do allow scopes as is argued so many times.

When mine was zeroed, I managed a 3 shot 1 inch group at 100 yards. With the drop compensation reticle, shots out to 500 were calculated (not recommended) into the reticle at the lowest power. Multi powered scopes make muzzle loaders a long range weapon. Period. And we all know they gather light and make low light shooting much easier. This to the point that you really do need to look at your watch to know if you should shoot.

I read the thread and see the same arguments as always but in my opinion the most accurate sentiments were the few that basically said:

A) "I want scopes to be legal because where I hunt I'm often faced with long shots/longer than I'm comfortable with because of __________".

&

"I don't want scopes to be legal because that will bring too many people out for the late season and I would just like to have some quiet time to hunt with a gun. So keep it more difficult".

Either point is valid but I'll wager the people who have some property locked down and don't have to compete with other hunter's access are more in camp A and people who hunt public property or rely on permission to hunt are in camp B.

I will also wager people who focus more on the getting are in A and people who focus more on the experience are in B.

Ask yourself and be honest. I'm in B for the land access part. I'm in A for the getting part. But B wins because if I can't hunt a good late season spot at all, I can't get.