2 pole 15A breaker question

[jentz]

I am installing a outdoor outlet, 2 of them.I have a 2 pole 15A breaker with 12-3 wire going to the outlets on a 4X4 post.Both boxes have 15A rated recepticals GFCI.The wires off the breaker red and black are hot,There is one neutral,Do I pigtail the neutral to each box?

What has me confused is the GFCI arent they not to be connected in any way? So they can detect overload? Or can they share the Neutral?

Thanks in advance!

[Tom7227]

Look at the diagrams that came with the units.

[jentz]

Look at the diagrams that came with the units.

Thanks for the reply Tom! but the diagrams are for single pole breakers.

[jentz]

Surly someone can help me??? I have seen lots of electric questions answered here, I thought I'd have a answer soon after posting.ANYONE???

[cavalierowner]

I haven't any idea, but have you tried searching online? I needed info on wiring a few months ago and founds lots of diagrams online. You may also be able to "browse" in the How-To book section of the home improvement stores.

[amateurfishing]

i think i understand what u r asking (both red & black r hot out of fuse box, correct)?

only the first receptable should be GCFI protected for the entire protected circuit. you need to follow manufacterers installation instructions for the GCFI receptable to work properly (i am currently doing this now as well also). No, im pretty sure you cannot pigtail white (neutral), u need to determine which (black or red) is your "hot" and properly install that on "in" line in GCFI receptacle and white (neutral) accross from it.

If you are just adding receptacles after an already in place GCFI protected one, you just match up the hot (usually black) on the right and neutral (white) on the left & will automatically be protected after GCFI receptable in the circuit.

Otherwise if i dont understand your question correctly or you do not understand my post, it is best to make drawing and post that on here for soemone to look at like i did in another post. without knowing exactly where wires are coming or going to, its almost impossible to interpret written word exactly as u intended it. i talk to my parents all the time bout electrical over the phone and can never get on the same page.

[Surface Tension]

I'm not exactly sure what your doing is one reason and haven't ever come across what your doing.

Is there a reason that you can't use one single pole 20 amp breaker, 20 amp GFCI, 12-2 wire, and a 2 gang outdoor box?

[SkunkedAgain]

ST - my thoughts exactly.

jentz - I'll be blunt...do you know what you're doing? A double pole breaker is going to supply 240v on a 15amp circuit but you're using 12 gauge wire which is for a 20amp circuit...plus you're using 12-3 which has the red traveler wire. All this for a couple of GFCI outlets?

I'm far, far from an electrician but you might be scaring away the good sparkies with your initial question - they're worried about the liability. I am. Maybe post what you are specifically trying to accomplish with this new electrical run and the guys can suggest what supplies and methods will work. If you're using the 2-pole breaker and the 12-3 wire because that's what you have laying around, that answers part of the question.

[jentz]

Well This is on a lot that we let family and others use.The electrical inspecter told me for the two 15A outlets to run popup campers.I need a 2 pole 15A breaker with 12-3 wire and each receptical needs GFCI and weather covers.The two leads or HOT are red and black wires the red goes to one receptical as its hot,the black goes to the second receptical as its hot.Now I have one neutral (white) and the ground (bare).I have used the white as neutral for both boxes,With the GFCIs there is no power a safety feature as I have read.I can not find any online pics or advice how to run the neutrals?? Each box hooked without the other box and red or black as hot and the white as neurtal works fine.I cant figure out how to make both work?? Thats the problem.

This will be inspected when I call for it.Can I run the bare wire (ground) as the neutral for the second box? seeing they both hook to the same bar in the breaker box? I havent tried that wireing yet but it will give me seperate neutrals or grounds. I just dont know if that would meet codes???

[jentz]

ST - my thoughts exactly.

jentz - I'll be blunt...do you know what you're doing? A double pole breaker is going to supply 240v on a 15amp circuit but you're using 12 gauge wire which is for a 20amp circuit...plus you're using 12-3 which has the red traveler wire. All this for a couple of GFCI outlets?

I'm far, far from an electrician but you might be scaring away the good sparkies with your initial question - they're worried about the liability. I am. Maybe post what you are specifically trying to accomplish with this new electrical run and the guys can suggest what supplies and methods will work. If you're using the 2-pole breaker and the 12-3 wire because that's what you have laying around, that answers part of the question.

But a double pole breaker can supply two seperate boxes with 120V being double pole one breaks and the second also breaks creating a safe break on both boxes

[jentz]

I installed the meter socket with a bypass and the out door 200A breaker box with all 20-20-40 wire,I have a 30A camper box installed with a 15A GFCI outlet on that post.I am not a certified electrican.But I have passed these inspections and the elec CO. has turned on the power with all recorded inspections.The inspecter told me to connect these two outlets as stated.I was hoping to get advice from a electrician.I need and will get inspections to protect not only me but any users of the lot.

I hate to call the inspecter and ask! but I cant find any online advice or schematics.I thought here after reading home improvement posts for a few years then creating a account I could get help.If anyone has suggestions I am open to them.I will call and ask the local inspecter soom.I'd rather not!But I need these hot for the weekend of June 9th for a grad party. Thanks to those who replied! anyone know how to do this??

[SpecialK]

You cannot use the ground (bare wire) as a neutral wire. That needs to be used as the ground. Do you have a junction box where you split the 12-3 cable? I am not sure about GFCI receptacles but I would think you could use the one neutral wire for both boxes by splicing it in the box and running a neutral wire to each receptacle.

I am NOT a electrician and not sure if it will work or is allowed tho.

[amateurfishing]

if a certain individual has passed u b4, knows exactly what you are doing now and has offered up info & help, i would call that inspector and ask for detailed "how to" on your job.

i dont understand how u can use the red and black as hot separately but use white together on both, maybe that is a situation that can only be done with 2 boxes & adding a third changes the wiring altogether, im not a pro, not sure. like my 3 way switches in another post, i can have 2 lights on 2 light switches for 3 way situation but if i add a third switch or third light fixture it changes the wiring dynamics completely. that may be similar situation for you, adding 1 more outlet may completely change your wiring dynamics.

anyway, if a specific inspector who will be doing your inspection told u to do it a certain way, i would call em back and write down his instructions.

[Whoknows]

Multiwire circuits and GFCI receptacles cannot be used together. A GFCI protected circuit does NOT detect an overload. The breaker is designed to protect against overload. What GFCI protection does is detects current to ground such at your toddler sticking a paper clip in the hot tab. Once again a gfci does NOT protect against overload or a direct hot to neutral short circuit.

A gfci senses current on both the hot and neutral conductors if there is ANY difference in current it trips the circuit. A multiwire circuit shares a neutral there for your neutral current and hot current will almost always be different.

Multi-wire circuits are a thing of the past. Today's code just doesn't allow them in many installations.

If you want multiple circuits at your pole your going to need two 15 amp single pole beakers and two separate runs of 14/2. Personally, I would do a load calc to determine if two circuits is even needed. Most likely you could get by with one 20 amp circuit run with a 12/2 UF. Then just buy one GFCI and and feed all other receptacles from that one GFCI.

There are many ways to do this legally and most importantly safely. A multiwire is a not one of them.

Good Luck

[dillon]

Is the 12-3 already run. Is there any reason that you don't just run two lengths of 12-2? That way you don't have the issue of using the common neutral.

[Surface Tension]

Considering the campers will have, lights, fridge, AC, toasters, and whatever else I think your going to be popping a 15 amp breaker often.

I would think a 30 amp double poll breaker, 10-3 wire, to an outdoor sub panel on the post.

From there you can have your two receptacles each their own breaker in the sub.

[Whoknows]

Wish I would have read through all the posts before posting. Surface tension has it spot on. Feed a sub panel then run what you need for the camper.

[SkunkedAgain]

But a double pole breaker can supply two seperate boxes with 120V being double pole one breaks and the second also breaks creating a safe break on both boxes

Can but not with the GFCI. The subpanel idea from ST with then separate circuits sounds like the ticket since it eliminates the common neutral issue.

[jentz]

Hey thanks for all the speculation.I will contact the inspector and do it right.What ever happened to all the sparkies that once helped amateurs here? Ted mack comes to mind/Thanks guys!!!

[frazwood]

Well This is on a lot that we let family and others use.The electrical inspecter told me for the two 15A outlets to run popup campers.I need a 2 pole 15A breaker with 12-3 wire and each receptical needs GFCI and weather covers.The two leads or HOT are red and black wires the red goes to one receptical as its hot,the black goes to the second receptical as its hot.Now I have one neutral (white) and the ground (bare).I have used the white as neutral for both boxes,With the GFCIs there is no power a safety feature as I have read.I can not find any online pics or advice how to run the neutrals?? Each box hooked without the other box and red or black as hot and the white as neurtal works fine.I cant figure out how to make both work?? Thats the problem.

This will be inspected when I call for it.Can I run the bare wire (ground) as the neutral for the second box? seeing they both hook to the same bar in the breaker box? I havent tried that wireing yet but it will give me seperate neutrals or grounds. I just dont know if that would meet codes???

Let me start by saying that I am not an electrician and that I am very careful to ask questions before I tackle an wiring project.

The last house that I owned had a situation that was somewhat similar to this. There were two circuits (i.e., two different breakers in the panel) in the kitchen that shared a neutral and a ground wire.

Because they were kitchen circuits, they needed to be GFCI-protected... so I installed those on the two circuits. Each of these circuits had multiple receptacles in series, so I installed the GFCI on the first receptacle for each of the two circuits.

This caused all sorts of problems... when I turned off one circuit so that I could work on it, the other circuit kept sending juice down the neutral of the "off" circuit (and I kept getting shocked!).

The solution, it turns out, is simple. You have to installed a separate GFCI receptacle at each receptacle -- you cannot use a GFCI to protect multiple receptacles when it is wired like this.

Please note that I don't know if current electrical codes would allow you to wire something like this (the rules for initial installation are usually more stringent than retrofitting something).

[SkunkedAgain]

Please note that Jentz wanted professional electrical advice, so he went to a fishing forum, and then got upset that he didn't get professional advice. No need to continue this thread.

[JohnMickish]

Hey thanks for all the speculation.I will contact the inspector and do it right.What ever happened to all the sparkies that once helped amateurs here? Ted mack comes to mind/Thanks guys!!!

Some of us are away fishing.

Let me clear up a few things. A multi wire branch circuit CAN be used to supply two GFCI receptacles, but a GFCI breaker cannot share a neutral. I instal multi wire branch circuits with GFCIs all the time.

An inspector is not a how to guide, that is not his job. His job is to make sure you know what you are doing.

Lastly, what you are trying to do is very easy to the trained person. My advice is to either pay someone to do it, or purchase a wireing or dummies type of book. It will save you alot of headaches.

[JohnMickish]

What ever happened to all the sparkies that once helped amateurs here?

Part of it too is that people are asking for advice on things that are way beyond their skills, and part of it is there is alot of speculation and bad advice given by people that are not knowledgable in certain fields, people that say that you don't need to do it to what the code says and offer shortcuts so many of us just stay out of the conversations.

[jentz]

Thanks!Mnfishinguy: It is beyond my knowledge yes.but not beyond my skills=with a little help.Skunked, not angry or put off.Just to many non electricians saying it cant be done or you got to do it this way.It is wired and passed the inspection.The answer was in a book I read at a box store.

I know forums and did expect answers all over the place.I read here at this forum for a few years before I signed on.I did think some sparkie would give me the correct wireing,I know the union guys like to help their brothers nothing wrong with that.I had the wires run 2 ft deep and just needed to connect to the GFCIs.I thought for something so simple I would get Pros help????

[jmd1]

Jenz, first off, i would have used a disconnect at the pole so i don't have to run all the way to the main panel to dc the power for the outlets. To answer your question first, coming onto a fishing board site for this type of info might be a bit much in asking. That is my opinion. While you may see these types of questions come up from time to time, many times it is dealing with low voltage lighting on a truck or trailer. The way i look at your question is like this, If you have never changed the brakes on a car before but you saw it done once and have a crescent wrench and pliers, you think you can do it. Well sir, if you asked me for help, i would never give you the help as i would not you coming back on me via a lawsuit for laying it out for you. You may say that would never happen but it is easier for us union and non union folks just not to give the info you are seeking. If your job was done i would really hope that you are the first one to try it, not your wife or kid plugging in a radio or something.

The slam about the union trades does not set well with me as i imagine it won't with others. Why not join the ibew union board for help rather than a bunch of outdoorsman?