Muskies too fragile????

[Guest]

Quick question. I don't fish muskies so, I'm in the dark about this. Why do they die so easily? Are they that fragile of a fish? Seems to me, that if they were so fragile, they wouldn't still be around. Is it just the fight or the methods we use or what? Always been curious about them.

Also, why are they so hard to catch? They are related to northerns right? Northerns are easier than H@#$ to catch. What makes Muskies different?

just curious

[honker23]

I'm no expert, but most of the fish people target are 40+ inches, 10-30 years old. They have seen every lure at every time of the day, especially the well known spots. The smaller 30-40 inchers are more aggressive and easier to hook into. I dont think they are a fragile fish either, but a long fight for an old fish can be a struggle, just my thoughts.

[RuKiddingMe]

Well I have some theories all of which I'm not sure of, but I think it has to do with the amount of energy they exert during a fight. These are big fish and they consume quite a bit of oxygen. I’ve also heard/read that it has something to do with their swim bladders. But I think that stress plays about the biggest role in why they are so fragile.

The reason you don’t catch as many Muskies as you do Northerns simply has to do with numbers, there are far fewer muskies in a body of water then there are northerns. I seen a statistic that the DNR tries to keep the management at about 1 adult fish per sq. acre or water. That's not that many.

Hope this helps.

Matt

[EBass]

I heard that they build up toxins in the tissue when fighting due to the stress. Kinda like how humans get when working out. I don't know, just something I heard and wanted to put in my 02

[Trany]

From what I know, it seems to be a bit of both exertion on an old fish and lack of oxygen. I have been told that you have to basicaly restart the fish before releasing, this is done by moving it with a "swiming" motion, from side to side. I equate it to an 80 year old man who has just ran a marathon. The body is old and gets drained faster, with the increased oxygen intake and stress the fish needs some lovin' to be on someone elses line in the future. The toxin theroy might have something to do with the buildup of CO2 causing some sort of carbonic acid to form in the stressed tissue.

Hope my limited knowledge helps,
Trany

[RK]

Hiya,
Several posts are all pretty much on the right track here. Muskies are really pretty wimpy compared to a lot of other species. They have muscles designed for short burts of speed, not long fights, so they [PoorWordUsage] out pretty fast and are really susceptable to getting stressed out.

Part of what happens, as EBass said, is chemical. When they exert energy, lactic acid builds up in their muscles, which in turn makes the hemoglobin in their blood less able to carry oxygen to the muscles. So pretty early on in a fight, their muscles are anerobic - working at an oxygen deficit. It takes a while for that oxygen deficit to get sorted out once the fight is over. This is one of the reasons why a quick release with little time out of the water is critical with muskies - they can't breathe at all while being held out of the water obviously.

As far as them being hard to catch, muskie fisherman like to tell themselves that it's because they are smart, elusive and clever. Makes us feel better when we don't catch any And, as someone else mentioned, fishing pressure can certainly be a factor at times. Really though, the main reason they're harder to catch than other fish is math. Muskies are the apex predator (top of the food chain) in basically any system they inhabit. There just aren't lots and lots of muskies, even on a very good lake. A high muskie population may be .2 to .3 adult fish/acre. Now try to find the one that's hungry, or at least that can be triggered, get the right bait in front of them at the right depth and speed, from the right direction, and on and on with all the other variables, and your odds are pretty long. When I edit articles and listen to seminars you'll invariably hear someone say they can help you 'put the odds in your favor' and I sort of chuckle, cuz it ain't gonna happen. The odds are ALWAYS on the fish . It's just a figure of speech, so I'm not knocking the guys saying and writing it, but the reality is the best you can do is hope the odds rise into the realm of the possible now and then. And keep casting.

Sheesh - writing a novel here. This is what happens when I get too much coffee in me

Cheers,
RK

[can it be luck?]

I'm in agreement to all here. In regards to catching muskies we must all practice CPR not once, but twice. CPR.... for resussitation, and CPR....for memorization. Could you imagine mouth to mouth on a musky? OUCH!

[RuKiddingMe]

I was on Forest a couple Sundays ago and seen big girl belly up near the launch on the 3rd lake, it's pretty sad. I figure it died of a poor release...

[fishin magician]

THe last two lakes that I have been muskie fishing on I found a dead muskie on both lake. Was out on Forest and saw a 38-42 incher that was belly up. Was out on Rush lake and saw a 35 incher belly up. No good.

[Bushwacker]

Last year I had one of my saddest moments of fishing in my life. I was out muskie fishing and hooked into a nice 43" right when my lure hit the water. The fight was on. She actually went airborne twice before she wore out and came in. We used one of those lip lock tools instead of a net to minimize the wear on her and took only one photo and put her back in the water. Her whole time out of the water was less than 1 minute. My buddy did a rough measure job on her while I held her in the water trying to get her to go and then he took a couple of pics of me releasing her and waited for the big splash for the last pic. It never happened. After sliding her every which way and letting him try for a while. Twenty minutes later there was still no movement. It was the strangest thing I have ever seen. The two of us combined released over 120 muskies in our lives and we never had anything like this happen. This was the first one that would not swim away. It was lip hooked and not hooked very badly. Now I have a 43 inch muskie at the taxidermist, trying to make the best out of a bad deal. It was maybe a 5 minute fight but I think our handling of the fish was excellent. We still talk about everytime we go after muskies. The chemical and oxygen depletion theories do make a lot of sense.

[Guest]

Out of 120 muskies this probably wasn't the first one that died from the catch just the first you saw, my guess anyways.

[stephendawg]

Many of you have undoubtably read articles regarding "delayed" mortality in musky. We see them swim off but statistics have shown many more die after swimming off than anglers realize. Quick landing, minimal handling, quick and careful release. This will help preserve the big girls! Good luck to all!

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...Now, if I only had more time off!...
Dawg

[Muskie-searcher]

Other than time out of the water, the biggest facter in survival rate is the length of the fight. Too many people use undersized equipment and thus it takes them to long to land a fish. With a good pole, good line and good release techniques the entire event last only a couple minutes. The fish should be out of the water for only about 15 seconds of those few minutes. Always remove or cut the hooks while she is still in the water, that way you can pick her up, supporting the weight with both hands, snap a quick picture and then the release. This will at least reduce the casualties. We always time ourselves from the time of the hook set until the release, if you are under minutes the fishes chances are very good.

[Guest]

Alright, without the intintion of [PoorWordUsage]ing anybody off, would the muskie population be better off if we were banned from targeting them for a couple of years?

I ask because almost every reply in this thread has talked about dead muskies. In a given day all across the state, it would seem like many many muskies die. If what you guys say is true about delayed mortality and finding floaters.

Seems to me like we kill more of the fish that we spend soooo much money chasing and trying to preserve. Why not just stop fishing them for a couple of years and let their numbers and size get up??

I'm not a muskie fisherman so, I don't know much about them. Just trying to get other's opinions.

[Bushwacker]

tennesseean,
It would definitely be a boost to the muskie population if the season was closed, but I don't think the tackle companies and anglers would go for it. Even if you did close down a lake or two from fishing that would probably draw more attention from "northern and bass" fisherman casting a little larger lures in hopes that they hook into one of them "by accident" This is not my opinion completely, but I have a good friend that is in the bait business and he is a firm believer that for fishing a person should be allowed to catch only the number of fish that his or her possession limit is. Meaning if you can keep 3 northerns, you have to keep the first three northerns that you catch, regardless of size. He traps minnows and leeches and always sees floaters up in the reeds or sunk to the bottom dead. That is his opinion and I respect it, but he thinks that over half of released fish have delayed mortality. When I think about it though, how many large fish have hook scars or wounds that show that they were caught before. I can't think of many, whether muskie, northern or even walleye. How many times do you think a 50 inch muskie has been caught and released?

[RK]

Hiya,
Interesting discussion guys...

Bushwacker - it happens. Sometimes they just flat-out croak. I've had two up and die on me. One was due to a hook in the isthmus - the junction of their gills where the major blood vessels run. Set the hook and it looked like a special effects shot from a 'Jaws' movie - huge cloud of blood in the water, and the fish was belly up in seconds. Was dead as a stone by the time it got to the boat. The other I can't explain other than the fish had a heart attack. Lip hooked, good fight for 25 seconds, then the thing just up and died. Sometimes there's nothing you can do.

As far as the numbers involved with delayed mortality, it is an issue. There's a convergence of circumstances with big fish that make it even more problematic. Big fish have a much more difficult time recovering from being caught and are much more prone to stress-induced problems like lactic acid buildup and heat stress in warm water (high surface temps in mid-summer). They're also the fish most likely to be over-handled as they are measured and photographed. Improper handling compounds this. I'm working on an article right now about handling fish and the physiological affects of holding big fish, and it's really startling.

But, the other side of the coin is we fish for the things in part to catch big ones, and for a lot of people, photographs of the moment are an important part of the experience, and I don't think it's fair to deny people that. Personally I don't take many fish pictures - never have - because it's not a big deal to me. But I don't feel comfortable telling others they shouldn't. It isn't up to me to tell people how to enjoy this sport. So all you can do really is try to educate people as best you can on the best release methods available like cutting hooks (get a set of Knipex cutters - they're the best), using a good landing device like a coated net or cradle, and emphasizing preparedness, speed and efficiency.

We know from research in other areas (other fish species) that fish can be caught an released multiple times if handled properly. From personal experience I know muskies can be caught multiple times. I caught the same fish 4 times in one year on leech. No doubt it was the same fish because was in the exact same location and had a very distinctive scar on its head. (Oddly enough, the fish was caught on the same bait all 4 times. Just couldn't say no...) For a low population density species like muskies, proper handling is all the more important.

Cheers,
RK

[Fish-n-Freak]

Well said RK!

Good question from Aquaman -- I understand where it is coming from.

I am a Muskie guy, have been for 20+ years and have caught many, and some really big ones. I do not fish for Muskies in August, and will usually not target them from late July until mid September. If I need a Muskie fix I will go the river (higher O2 levels and lower water temps) or I will go north to some cooler/deeper water.

The Muskies do help the lake by keeping the numbers down on smaller fish, thus preventing them from over population and stunting. They also will eat some of the smaller Bass and Pike, allowing the others to grow larger. You don't want a lake full of 1 1/2 to 2 pound Bass and Pike, they will eat all the small forage and hurt the Crappies and Walleye.

The Muskie holds a special spot with me, and I like RK do not have a bunch of pictures to toss around, I fish them for me and the enjoyment I get from the hunt, catch and release. I cut my hooks and have even cut lures to get a clean release. I would assume that over the years I may have had a few die after I released them, but I know I have caught the same fish a few times over the years -- So I focus on the good, and try to make every release quick and clean.

On the heavy tackle and short fight idea -- great point! The heavy tackle is a must. You need to be in control of the fish and get it netted as soon as it is safe for both you and the fish. The sport is more in getting them to hit a piece of wood, than in the fight. The fight is great, and you know the power they have by the end of a good fight. But even a 50"+ fish will only make a few big runs before getting tired out. The runs are something, but they do not go on forever.

Everyday someone is taking up Muskie Fishing for the first time. With the added pressure, we need to make sure we do all we can for every fish we catch. Too many of the new guys do not understand they are taking up a sport that comes with responsibility.

Good Fishing!
Steve

[Aquaman01]

Thanks Steve - I get it now. Kinda like fly-fishing on a bigger scale. A MUCH bigger scale.

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Aquaman
<')}}}}}><{
"The bow is set to distant shore,
then loss is gained and gains once more.
When beach is reached and sails are torn,
the journey is it's own reward."

[Aquaman01]

I'm not a muskie fisherman - never had the opportunity to get in my 10,000 casts I guess. I have a thought, though.
If the muskie is an essential top-chain predator for certain water-body types, and there is actually significant harm done to these fish during angling - would cessation of muskie angling on certain bodies of water also benefit the whole lake and not just the muskie population? If the fight is condensed into minutes via strong gear and good boatwork - is it still worth chasing them? Does this angling sport outweigh the wellbeing of the whole body of water?
Not stumping here - just curious.

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Aquaman
<')}}}}}><{
"The bow is set to distant shore,
then loss is gained and gains once more.
When beach is reached and sails are torn,
the journey is it's own reward."

[RK]

Hiya,
Good point(s) all...

Fill up the coffee cup kids - long post coming

Aquaman01 - Regulating muskies is a pretty complex issue, especially in MN, because you're dealing with both stocked and natural populations. I think if you want to see where muskie (and pike perhaps) regulations are headed, you can look north to Ontario. In the last few years the OMNR has set up a tiered system of length limits for their muskie waters. Lakes with a high potential for world class fish (like Eagle, Georgian Bay, Lake of the Woods and a handful of others) have a 54" minimum which ensures near total C&R. Lakes with less potentail for a world class fish have varying length limits from 48" on down, to high population, low size potential 'numbers' lakes which may have a 34" minimum. One lake, Lac Seul, is total catch and release. Seul is a very special case, as it's a lake with a very low population density with muskies limited to a very small area of the lake. The mandatory C&R regulations are a direct response to overharvest of many big fish by stateside anglers in the early 90s.

In MN it is a bit more complicated. Other than a few stocking projects aimed at restoring populations in bodies of water where muskies were historically present but declined due to harvest or water quality issues (Nip[PoorWordUsage]ing is a good example) Ontario's muskie fisheries are all natural reproduction fisheries. In MN, half our muskie waters are stocked fisheries (if you fish muskies in MN, thank Bob Strand).

Stocked waters are there to provide more opportunities for anglers to catch muskies. That includes non 'muskie anglers' as well. Release mortality and the like are challenges for the muskie fishery for sure, but when it comes to stocked waters probably the biggest challenge is public perception and public opinion - i.e., 'the muskies are eating all the *insert speaker's favorite fish species here*' The challenge is often not just keeping a quality fishery, but convincing the angling public that there is value in having a viable muskie fishery in a particular body of water.

Length limits have a role in that. A high minimum size limit or total C&R regs would certainly appeal to muskie fisherman, but the perception of muskies and muskie anglers as elitist would only be fed by such a move, and would also quite frankly defeat one of the the purposes of the muskie program itself - to provide the opportunity for anglers to catch the fish of a lifetime. In many cases that means keeping it and mounting it. I know a lot of muskie anglers boil when Joe Walleyehead keeps a 45 incher to mount out of a stocked lake like Miltona, Big Detroit or Alexander, but my reaction, quite honestly, is 'good for you.' Don't get me wrong, I'd rather see the fish released, and have a graphite done, but in the long run the end result is another member of the angling public with a positive experience and a positive perception of the opportunity afforded by a muskie stocking program. You can't underestimate the importance of that when groups like No More Muskies come calling for support.

For stocked lakes, there is also a biological justification for length limits that allow some harvest. The DNR fisheries guys feel 40" is about right for most MN waters, because it allows females at least one, often two seasons to spawn (thus supplementing stocking efforts with natural reproduction) before becoming eligable for harvest, while still allowing for some harvest of male muskies that only rarely reach beyond 43-44 inches. Distributing what harvest there is (often incedental harvest by non-muskie anglers) over the entire population structure helps prevent the upper end of the population from being lopped off while medium size fish make up an overly-large portion of the population as a whole. An over-abundance of small to medium size fish can lead to forage base compression that over the long term inhibits the maximum growth potentail - much like the 'hammerhandle problem' in pike. You can't make to close a comparison there, because there are pretty significant differences in the population dynamics, but it's true to a point. It's also certainly true that forage base compression has adverse effects on the fishery as a whole.

The other thing to consider is that low muskie population waters - 'marginal' waters where muskies are present but not abundant - are pretty good at protecting themselves, so to speak. They get fairly low fishing pressure for muskies, so few fish are kept or lost due to delayed mortality. They CAN be over-exploited when a lake gets hot and word gets out (Elk Lake in Itasca State Park is a good example) but declining fishing success usually leads to declining pressure as anglers seek out greener pastures, and lakes eventually 'come back' after the heat is off. It takes a while though.

Anyhow, just some random thoughts on muskie regs. It's a complex issue, with a lot of variables, but I think there will be a lot of fine tuning of regs in coming years that will really help develop MN muskies as a diverse fishery with a lot of opportunities.

Cheers,
RK