Saints paid players to hurt foes

[hawgchaser]

Quote:

when are they going to decide on the players?

Good question!! Goodell hinted 2 weeks ago it would be soon. I think they are gauging the fan response to the management penalties. My prediction is that the player penalties will be surprisingly lenient in comparison. Player penalties may cost home field advantage but will not greatly jeopardize playoff potential. Just my prediction/opinion.

[mrklean]

Vilma is gonna get hit the hardest i believe out of all of them

[hawgchaser]

Maybe so. He put the most money down. His position in the players union and as an advocate for player safety & player support (ALS) could well cancel out some of his penalty. I'm betting on 2 game suspensions as the norm, but I don't base that on any inside information. If a player flagrantly put down money for a "cart-off", it could be more.

Just heard that Sean Payton approached Bill Parcells about serving as interim head coach during Payton's suspension.

[thatoneguy]

His position in the players union and as an advocate for player safety & player support (ALS) could well cancel out some of his penalty.

I'm guessing that will make his punishment worse, if anything. He really ought to have known better, and I wouldn't be surprised if an example was made of Vilma like it was of Payton.

[hawgchaser]

Quote:

I'm guessing that will make his punishment worse, if anything

The joke when I was a teacher was that all the poor teachers wanted to be union reps because administrators didn't want to appear retributive in disciplining a union rep. Not sure what the attitude is in the NFL.

[SkunkedAgain]

I don't understand the Chris Kluwe talk about a lifetime ban for Vilma. Sure the guy should be punished but I don't think that any player's punishment should be worse than the coaches that condoned and encouraged the bounties. The coaches certainly knew better. Remember that even with "veterans" they are in their mid-20s. I was still doing dumb stuff at that age. I'm not defending these players, just stating that the coaches were in a position of more responsibility than these players, and therefore the players' punishments shouldn't exceed that of the coaches involved.

[mrklean]

Kluwe hasn't been in the spotlight for awhile so he needed to say something so people would pay attention to his band

[nofishfisherman]

Yeah I'm guessing not a lifetime ban for Vilma. Top end I'd guess a year but even thats probably not going to happen. I'd probably be happy with a 6 game ban for any player found to have put up money for the bounty system that was designed to reward platers for hurting another player. To me it doesn't really matter who put up the most money, every single dollar contributed to the problem.

If there was any money put up to reward players for INTs or TD's or anything like that then I'd say maybe a 1 game suspension for that stuff since technically it is illegal but rewarding for that tpye of stuff doesn't bother me at all.

We'll see what sort of ban Greg Williams ends up with. Right now the ban in indefinite, could be a year or it could be forever. That has yet to be determined. I wouldn't be surprised if his is longer than a year since it sounds like he has a history of bringing the bounty system with him where ever he goes. I think he'll be lucky if he's able to ever coach again. Even after his ban is lifted he'll still need someone willing to offer him a job.

[SkunkedAgain]

Great follow-up post nofishfisherman. I agree about the length of suspensions and spreading the blame equally. I'm also not as concerned about the incentives for good play versus those for inflicting pain and injury. However, if it's easier for the league to enforce a no-tolerance policy then I'm okay with it.

Williams will definitely be longer than a year, otherwise Goodell would have just suspended him for the year like Sean Peyton. I understand the indefinite ban when dealing with players with off-the-field problems like drugs, etc. It provides the commissioner time to reevaluate if they are ready to play again. In this situation, there is no reevaluation to do. It's just a tool to keep him in limbo as long as the commissioner wishes to do so.

[LMITOUT]

Kluwe hasn't been in the spotlight for awhile so he needed to say something so people would pay attention to his band

Agree.

I expect his plant leg will get folded up like a cheap lawn chair during one of the numerous times the Vikings will be punting this coming season.

[YiGGiN4SLoBS]

Now Sean Payton is being allowed to hand pick a hall of fame head coach to take his spot for a year???? What a crock....

Some punishment Goodell!

[mrklean]

Punishment doesnt take effect till april 1, nothing he can do about it

[PierBridge]

Quote:

I think they are gauging the fan response to the management penalties.

That won't influence Rogers decision in any-way-shape or form. The problem is with the players unions lawyers and getting them to agree!

I think 4 games would suffice but wouldn't be surprised if it were a bit higher!

[hawgchaser]

Quote:

That won't influence Rogers decision in any-way-shape or form. The problem is with the players unions lawyers and getting them to agree!

Given the way Goodell levies fines and suspensions and the way the lockout ended, I think Goodell and the owners view the players union as a mere nuisance...not a force to be reckoned with. That said, I believe his player discipline will lean to the union recommendations...a great talking point for both sides. I still believe it is all about the fans. Leaving the Saints (relatively) strong will make them to football what the Heat are to basketball and what the Yankees are to baseball...the team everybody loves to hate. Wherever a (relatively) strong Saints team plays in the next few years, tickets will sell and TVs will tune in. Vilma could, unfortunately, be the lightning rod and the example - mostly because he is out of Saintsville. I hope that doesn't happen.

Football fans haven't really had a good common enemy since the olden days of the Raiders.

[Scott M]

Gregg Williams wanted 49ers hurt

ESPN News Services

On the day that members of the Saints' brass had their appeals heard for their roles in New Orleans' bounty system, darning audio was released of Gregg Williams, the man who orchestrated the program, instructing his players to injure San Francisco 49ers players in their wild-card playoff game last season.

Documentary filmmaker Sean Pamphilon, who directed the ESPN 30 for 30 film "Run Ricky Run," has released an audio recording that he says is a speech Williams, the team's former defensive coordinator, gave to New Orleans players the night before the team lost to the 49ers in a playoff game in January.

The sample audio recording is a little less than four minutes long. The full speech was 12 minutes, according to Pamphilon.

Pamphilon was following the Saints last season while working on a documentary featuring former Saints special teams player Steve Gleason, who is battling Lou Gehrig's disease.

Williams, who is suspended indefinitely by the league and is not appealing the penalty, can be heard in the audio recording instructing his defensive players to injure quarterback Alex Smith, running back Frank Gore, tight end Vernon Davis and receivers Michael Crabtree and Kyle Williams.

According to Pamphilon, Gregg Williams pointed to his chin while telling his players to hit Smith "right there," saying "Remember me. I got the first one. I got the first one. Go get it. Go lay that m----------- out."

Williams uses one of his favorite slogans in the speech -- "Kill the head and the body will die."

On Gore: "We've got to do everything in the world to make sure we kill Frank Gore's head. We want him running sideways. We want his head sideways."

On running back Kendall Hunter: "Little 32, we're going to knock the f--- out of him."

On Smith: "Every single one of you, before you get off the pile, affect the head. Early, affect the head. Continue, touch and hit the head."

On Kyle Williams: "We need to find out in the first two series of the game, that little wide receiver, No. 10, about his concussion. We need to f------ put a lick on him right now. He needs to decide. He needs to f------ decide."

On Crabtree: "We need to decide whether Crabtree wants to be a fake-silly-me prima donna, or he wants to be a tough guy. We need to find out. He becomes human when we f------ take out that outside ACL."

On Davis: "We need to decide how many times we can bull rush and and we can f------ put Vernon Davis' ankles over the pile."

When asked by ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter for comment on Williams' speech to his players, NFL spokesman Greg Aiello would not, other than to reiterate that the Saints had been warned, saying, "note for background these graphs from our March 21 press release announcing the discipline for Saints management."

The NFL had warned the Saints before the playoffs that it had re-opened its investigation into the team's bounty program and that the program needed to cease, but the warning apparently was ignored.

Saints coach Sean Payton was expected to testify Thursday during his appeals process that he directed Williams before the playoff game to ensure that no inappropriate conduct would occur, a source close to the process told Schefter.

Saints cornerback Malcolm Jenkins, in a post on his Twitter page, blasted Pamphilon for making the audio public.

His tweet: "Sean pamphilon is a coward and should be ashamed for taking advantage of Steve Gleason! How much did u get paid for that audio?"

Jenkins deleted the tweet later Thursday afternoon.

Pamphilon told Yahoo! Sports that he decided to release the audio because Williams' words, especially about Kyle Williams' concussion history, made him uncomfortable.

The film project he is working on, "The United States of Football," he told Yahoo! Sports, "looks at the media's effect upon the way the game is played and celebrated, the proper coaching mentality and the effect of concussions and repetitive head trauma."

Said Pamphilon: "The thing that really got me was when he said the thing about No. 10 and concussions. I thought, 'Did he just say that?' That was the red flag for me. And then the comments by the Giants made it hit home even harder."

Giants players had said after their win over San Francisco in the NFC Championship Game that they had targeted Kyle Williams as someone who might fumble on big hits because of his history of concussions.

And Thursday afternoon, Pamphilon released a statement to the New Orleans Times-Picayune further explaining why he released the audio recording.

"If this story hadn't broken and been made public, I would not have shared this. I would not have compromised my personal relationships and risked damaging Steve Gleason's relationship with the Saints. I would have crafted these words and sentiments for another forum, perhaps years down the road.

"If it weren't for the fact I feel deeply that parents of children playing football MUST pay attention to the influence of men who will sacrifice their kids for W's, I would not have written this.

"Some will call me releasing this audio for fame or money grab. True haters will call it exploitation.

"People of character and conscience call it was it is: tru."

The Saints' defense certainly was in attack mode against the 49ers. According to ESPN Stats & Information, the Saints sent five or more pass rushers in 30 of Smith's 46 dropbacks (65.2 percent). It was the second-most number of times the Saints used such pressure last season and their third-highest rate of percentage of rushers.

Despite Gregg Williams' tough talk, the 49ers defeated the Saints 36-32 in what turned out to be his last game as New Orleans' defensive coordinator. He left the team to become the St. Louis Rams' defensive coordinator before the NFL's penalties were announced.

At the time of the league's ruling, Gregg Williams apologized and said he took full responsibility for his actions.

Payton (suspended for one year), general manager Mickey Loomis (eight games) and assistant head coach Joe Vitt (six games) had their appeals heard Thursday.

The Saints also were fined $500,000 and forced to forfeit second-round picks in the 2012 and 2013 drafts. Discipline for some of the Saints players involved is forthcoming. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and league security met with NFL Players Association officials Monday to discuss the investigation and possible penalties for others.

[mnviking28]

They interviewed Joe Vitt today on ESPN after his appeal with Goddell. He actually had the nerve to say "we don't teach this". That is a direct quote. How does anyone have the nerve to say something like that when there is recorded information to the contrary? I would love to see if there is video of this as well to see if there is footage showing Payton and Vitt or Loomis in the room. If that is the case, I think that they got off lightly. They have been caught and instead of manning up and serving their time, they are still playing the pity party in the court of public opinion. The saints fans are still whining like they are targets.

[Scott M]

Retired NFL players known for toughness say New Orleans Saints' Gregg Williams crossed the line

by Elizabeth Merrill, ESPN

There is an old story that has been told, most recently in HBO's documentary "Namath," about a legendary quarterback with bad knees and a league full of opponents unwilling to exploit it. Fred Dryer doesn't understand why people make such a big deal about it. Back in the 1970s, Joe Namath had bad knees -- everyone knew he had bad knees -- but Dryer, a tough defensive end who went on to be a badass on a 1980s cop show, never took a shot at them. It didn't seem right, Dryer said. Around the league, defensive players would pull up when tackling Namath.

"There was a moral code to how you played the sport," Dryer said.

"I would hate to play today."

There is a legion of old football players who are passionate and angry right now, and perhaps that is somewhat of a surprise. When commissioner Roger Goodell cracked down on the Saints last month for running a bounty program, there was a sentiment, voiced loudly in New Orleans and whispered among a few young defensive players, that Goodell was once again sissifying football. That the stuff former Saints defensive coordinator Gregg Williams said to jack up his players has been said in locker rooms for decades.

It hasn't. At least that's what Dryer and a number of other retired NFL players said in interviews this week. Many of them expressed disappointment at what they heard in the audio clip released late last week that featured Williams, the day before a January divisional playoff game against the San Francisco 49ers, imploring his defense to "kill Frank Gore's head" and target receiver Michael Crabtree's ACL.

Dryer mainly expressed disgust. For nearly 40 minutes, with his voice reaching high decibels, Dryer vented his anger at a league that he says is reckless and at a reality that so many of his friends are stumbling through their later years with concussion issues and battered old bodies. Dryer said he supports Goodell's decision to suspend Saints coach Sean Payton for a year and ban Williams, the team's former defensive coordinator, indefinitely.

But Dryer said the league needs to "send a message right now" by also suspending the players involved for a year.

"I've met Roger, and I have a lot of faith in him and his leadership," Dryer said of Goodell, who's still considering player penalties. "He's got a long road to hoe here, and we're all rooting for him. This is a very dangerous sport. You can get paralyzed, killed, maimed for the rest of your life playing the sport. So there's an inherent responsibility for one another. That's lost today. They all get together and they kneel down and hold hands and give thanks to God and then they behave this way. The arrogance and the narcissism that has run rampant in this sport is just beyond the pale.

"You've got these players, these idiots, now taking complete control over the sport, acting out. And these silly-me owners, these lobster-guzzling owners, they sit up there in their press box and just look and realize, 'Gee, we're making a lot of money from our TV package, and we really don't care as long as people are watching.'"

Filmmaker Sean Pamphilon's HSOforum has glossy slideshows at the top of the page and venom at the bottom. On a corner of the page is a spot for reader comments, and Pamphilon has been peppered with F-bombs and called disparaging names. It's happened over the past few days, since the Gregg Williams audio was released. Pamphilon's intentions, some say, were noble. He was in the Saints' locker room that day in January filming a documentary on former Saints linebacker Steve Gleason, who has ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease), when Williams unloaded the speech. Gleason has been retired for four years but is so close to the franchise that he -- and Pamphilon -- were there when Williams addressed the defense. The speech made Pamphilon uncomfortable, and eventually he was compelled to release the video. Maybe, he thought, this behavior might someday seep into youth football if he didn't do something.

The audio most likely had no impact on Goodell's decision to uphold the suspensions Monday, but it did resonate with many others. A half-dozen retired NFL players known for their toughness were interviewed for this story, and all of them said they were taken aback by Williams' words.

One player, former Pro Bowl linebacker Chad Brown, said he was initially willing to give the Saints and Williams the benefit of the doubt. Brown knew all about Goodell's initiative for safety and how he occasionally made examples of people. In Brown's playing days, from 1993 to 2007, he received a few $15,000 fines for helmet-to-helmet hits and sometimes rolled his eyes over his perception of the league's heavy-handedness.

But Brown quickly changed his mind on the Saints' situation after hearing the tape.

"It crossed the line," he said. "There's a player code. It's definitely unspoken, but every player knows when you go on the field, particularly a defensive player, you're going to hit as hard as you possibly can, but you never intentionally try to injure people. I want to rob your will to play the game; I don't want to rob your ability to walk."

Even the nastiest players, such as Conrad Dobler, are aware of the code. Dobler, who once graced the cover of Sports Illustrated in the 1970s with the title "Pro Football's Dirtiest Player," never wanted to take away a man's livelihood. He knew his opponents had families to feed, too. By the way, the former offensive lineman was making a quiche Saturday when he answered the phone. For a minute, it took some verification to make sure the person on the other end was indeed Dobler, especially after he said, "I use some heavy whipping cream so it puffs up real nice. It's fabulous."

Then Dobler liberally referred to a few of his old opponents as "jerk-offs" and waxed on about leg whips and his battles with the late Merlin Olsen, and things were back to normal.

"What he said in that meeting, I've never heard a guy say that," Dobler said of Williams. "I've had coaches before say, 'That guy's a real jerk; you've got to do what you have to do to neutralize him.' Now what does that mean? Every time he comes near a ball, we knock him down. He's not a factor.

"I wanted to embarrass the hell out of him. That's more important to me than hurting the guy. If he's hurt and leaves the game, then I can't embarrass him anymore. I want to have a couple of chances to make him look like a jerk-off."

They weren't exactly saints back in the old days of professional football. Dobler used to gouge eyes, spit and punch at throats. He drew the ire of Olsen, which apparently was an accomplishment because Olsen was widely known as a mild-mannered defensive tackle. Olsen once said that someday someone was going to break Dobler's neck, and Olsen wouldn't send flowers when it happened. It never happened. Dobler said he was too tough for that.

Dobler said that one team, the Raiders, hated him so much that they put a $100 bounty out on him.

"You might not think $100 is a lot of money," Dobler said, "but we didn't make a lot of money back then. A hundred bucks, especially with the Raiders ... they'd murder somebody in their family for it."

Dobler isn't the only one who says bounties were going on as far back as the 1970s. Floyd Little, a Hall of Fame running back for the Broncos who played during Dobler's era, said he was casually told by his friends, who happened to be opponents, that their teams had bounties out on him, too -- $1,000 to knock him out of the game, and an extra $500 if he didn't come back.

"They had a coach who would pay them in the locker room after the game," Little said. "Fifteen hundred dollars was a lot of money for us. That was a tremendous incentive. I was a No. 1 draft choice, and I signed for $10,000.

"It was something we all knew. It's been going on forever. But I didn't think it was still going on today. Guys make so much money. So yeah, it was a surprise to me that guys who make millions would be [motivated] by $1,000. That a player would try to hurt another player for what would be considered beer money. It doesn't make any sense to me."

Little figures it's probably just motivation in a testosterone-charged locker room. But he firmly believes that back in the '70s, players didn't want to hurt their opponents. Many of them were friends in those days. Little would train with the men who tried to chase him down, and went out to eat with some of them the night before games.

As they parted ways, he recalled his friends would say, "Don't let me make the money on you tomorrow." They never did. It was a different era. Opposing players knew each others' families and attended each others' functions. It's not like that anymore, Little said. Players are too distracted.

"They have agents," Little said. "Their whole lives are controlled by going here, going there, all these promotional opportunities, commercial opportunities. It's big business."

In 1979, Rams defensive end Jack Youngblood played the entire postseason with a broken fibula in his left leg. His opponents did not go after his leg, and when the Rams lost in the Super Bowl, Steelers right tackle Larry Brown stopped and found Youngblood.

"You played one hell of a game, buddy," Brown told Youngblood.

Youngblood, who is in the Hall of Fame, was in immense pain but never worried about someone taking a cheap shot at him. He said he was appalled and insulted by the news of the Saints' bounties, but Youngblood is sedate about the issue compared to his old teammate, Dryer.

There was a defining moment in Dryer's career, and it happened in a preseason game in 1972. Ray Jamieson, a rookie running back for the Raiders, collided with punt returner Eddie Phillips, and they hit with such force that both lay sprawled out on the field. Dryer was three feet away. Phillips got up; Jamieson did not.

"I knew right away he was hurt," Dryer said. "I was staring at him when they rolled him over gently, and I looked at his face and I saw it. A kid paralyzed for the rest of his life."

That's what makes Dryer's blood boil when he hears about coaches telling players to go after a man's head. They obviously aren't thinking about what lies ahead. Andy Russell, an early member of Pittsburgh's "Steel Curtain" defense in the 1970s, estimated he's had at least 10 concussions. Youngblood, who's taken a number of hits to the head himself, has struggled remembering what he had for breakfast.

But they know they're lucky. They're still around to talk about the way it used to be and about the NFL they hope to see someday. Dobler has had 36 knee surgeries and nine knee replacements. Brown is only 41 years old, but he's had more than 55 X-rays since he filed retirement papers in 2008.

"I just got back from a retired players' meeting," Brown said. "I saw a lot of guys walking around on artificial knees and hips. My generation is better off because of the things they did to change the game and make it better. Now this next generation of players can be made safer by essentially eliminating the type of language Gregg Williams used.

"I don't think that type of language has a place in football. Do I think Gregg Williams is an awful guy? No. Do I think he lost perspective? Yeah."

[Scott M]

Saints are having a great off season. Now there are allegations of Mickey Loomis eavesdropping on opposing teams with an electronic device.

[TR21HP]

Payton should get a lifetime suspension if these allegations are true. Throw the arrogant bum out of the league.

[LMITOUT]

Payton should get a lifetime suspension if these allegations are true. Throw the arrogant bum out of the league.

He wasn't with the team when these allegations occurred.

[TR21HP]

Saw the dates after I posted. What's wrong with this organization though?

Loomis should get the book thrown at him if this is indeed true. That's 2 allegations against this guy.

[nofishfisherman]

I wonder how hard this is going to be too prove? Sounds like the devices were taken out around the time of Katrina so they haven't been there for years now. All they can do is go on witnesses and so far the Saints organization has been ok with lying to the league during investigations.

If this is true and the league is able to prove it how bad do you think the penalties will be? Based on the punishment handed down to the Patriots it would be at least a first round pick plus another $500,000 but you'd think since it would be the second major violation by the saints you'd think they'd get hit even harder. I'm also sure Loomis won't be around a football team for a long period of time.

In my opinion Brees would be a fool to stay in NO. I believe he's a FA after this season with all this going on in NO and the potential of more punishment to come why would he want to stick around and be dragged down with the rest of the organization? Losing Brees would probably be the biggest punishment the Saints could have.

[mrklean]

this whole thing cracks me up, they were "americas" team after katrina now they are being exposed as just another dirty team, makes me laugh

[FISHINGURU]

I thought they were a Crock since day 1

[PierBridge]

No biggie you guys were right it/this is probably is just another slap on the wrist?..

LINK to suspensions WOW