ICF/SIPS

[elkhuntingfan]

My wife and I are going to build a cabin near Cross Lake. We intend to use an ICF foundation and SIP walls and roof. Does anyone out there have experience using these. I'm just wondering how it went and what brands were used.

Thanks.

[MN_Jay]

I'm a contractor and we've been using ICF's for all of our foundation exclusively for years now, by far the most superior foundation out there for our climate.

Edit: Sorry you were looking for brand names. We use logix. Don't cheap out on forms because there are a lot of inferior ones out there. Go with something reputable.

SIP's I wouldn't know, we've never used them but I try to steer people away from them since conventional stick framing is tried and true. SIP's haven't been used on a big enough scale for a long enough period to know the long term longevity, in my opinion of course.

[Get'n Jiggy]

ICF's are expensive but will pay back over the long haul, I've researched

SIPS extensively and found a lot of problems. They're made in a factory

and are square, which very few foundations are in fact. Thus they have problems with corners lining up. They also seem to have a lot of problems

with window openings, being the right size and in the right place.

I'm going with Dow SIS Panels on my next build, they look to be a good

system with closed cell foam as insulation.

[muchowja]

I would simply stick frame and have it spray foamed.

[boatfixer]

We have been selling more and more icf's each summer. We have dealt both Logix and Aarx. We started with Logix and then picked up aarx. At first it was split amongst contractors but as time went on, the Logix sales slowed. NOT TO SAY ANYTHING IS WRONG WITH THEM! They are a very good and very high quality block, in fact the ONLY manufacture that allows slight vibrations.

[titelines]

Our cabin is built with SIPS, so I can speak to that. We worked with Extreme Panel out of Cottonwood and had a great experience. I'll say that my wife is an architect, so she designed the place and worked with Extreme Panel on the drawings. The panels are created at the plant and trucked up to your site and assembled.

Our walls have 8" of insulation and the roof panels have 10". The up-front cost of SIPS is a bit more, but you make up for it on the installation as it goes up very quickly comparatively. You also don't have to worry about insulation as it's already done.

Very honestly, the problems you hear about with SIPS are almost exclusively due to a builder not being familiar with how to work with them, so you want to make sure you work with someone who knows what they're doing. The manufacturer would be able to help you with a trusted person in your area. We had no problems with ours at all as far as walls lining up, windows, doors etc. SIPS are becoming more popular, so the number of people working with them is expanding all the time.

The cabin is tight, and quiet! It maintains it's temperature very well. Cool in the summer, warm in the winter. A small wood stove is all that's needed to heat all 1500 sq. feet in the dead of winter, and it's 75 degrees in there before you know it. We have in-foundation heat to prevent freezing when we're not there. An air exchanger is required by code, so plan on that. We're very happy with our SIP construction. Let me know if I can add anything else, I'd be happy to.

[K_Josh87]

I've built With SIP panels and will say this..... My personal own house would be stick framed and spray foamed. Are the panels hard to work with? Not really. But it depends on the company. I personally have had a lot of problems with EPS (energy panel systems) I would stick frame, closed cell foam the walls and a couple inches of spray foam to seal the lid with fiberglass Blowen on top. I am not against the system, however for the money, there are better systems.... ICF poured wall foundations are great, main level icf Tend to create some headaches for the roof framing, but can be manageable, and if it were a simpler floorplan could be easier to deal with. Good luck!

[K_Josh87]

You can pm me with questions if u need. I have built a few different projects with these.

[PurpleFloyd]

When I was designing and planning our new fire hall I specified SIPS over post frame or stick framed construction. I did a lot of research and felt comfortable with the product and the company. The building went up very quickly, is very energy efficient and came in at the right budget.

[MN_Jay]

I would stick frame, closed cell foam the walls and a couple inches of spray foam to seal the lid with fiberglass Blowen on top. ICF poured wall foundations are great, main level icf Tend to create some headaches for the roof framing, but can be manageable, and if it were a simpler floorplan could be easier to deal with. Good luck!

I agree 100%

[K_Josh87]

Purplefloyd, what was a percentage comparison in price for the panels vs post of stick frame? Just curious as I have bid labor on projects for a sales company around here, and do not really get to see the material comparisons...

[NIBOWMAN]

Last year I built my house using the SIP panels from EPS. It is 3000sq ft of living space with 1000sqft heated garage. We used the jumbo panels which are 8ft wide and require less seams. 330lnft of exterior wall erection took 2 days with another 2 days for trusses and sheathing. Two more days for windows (which fit like a glove), and I had a wheather tight shell in less than a week with 3 people. Our house is easy to heat, easy to cool, quiet, and the panel walls made for easy construction where framing may have been tricky. Are there other building systems that are just as good or even better, maybe, but my house is everything I could ask for. Also remember with standard stick framing you are losing R value at every stud. A 24in stud spacing in a 2x6 wall with R19 insulation only has an actual rating of about 14. I don't know the actual rating for a stud frame and spray foam, but I do know that I have a consistant R26 airtight wall.

Sorry about being so windy.

[hanson]

Also remember with standard stick framing you are losing R value at every stud. A 24in stud spacing in a 2x6 wall with R19 insulation only has an actual rating of about 14. I don't know the actual rating for a stud frame and spray foam, but I do know that I have a consistant R26 airtight wall.

Its not consistant and not "air tight" either unless they spray foam all the joints when erecting the SIP panels. You still have headers over windows, you have double bottom plates, double top plates, studs at panel joints, etc. There is plenty of thermal bridging in the system, don't kid yourself.

If you are going to build a box for a house with minimal openings, its probably a good way to go.

Couple years ago, I designed a 3 story 24 unit apartment building that the owner insisted on using SIP panel exterior walls on, they were actually from EPS. Since SIP panels are still an "alternative" form of construction according to the IBC, and on top of that this building was rated construction so I needed 1 hour rated exterior walls that were UL tested, I got to know the system pretty thoroughly. For the SIP panel exterior wall construction to meet energy code, I had to take a sample wall section from the apartment building and calculate all the square inches of direct thermal bridging (studs, plates, headers, etc) and compare that to traditional stick framing. Guess what? SIP panels had a slight advantage and I stress slight. There is a lot of wood in the system to connect the panels to the floor, to each other, to the structure above, etc... Once the SIP panels were up on this job, the entire exterior of the building had to be sheathed in Type 'C' Gyp Sheathing and the interior with another layer of Gyp Bd as well to meet my 1 hour rating requirement.

Its the only job I've done with SIPs and it was a pain the butt on the design side.

[K_Josh87]

Its not consistant and not "air tight" either unless they spray foam all the joints when erecting the SIP panels. You still have headers over windows, you have double bottom plates, double top plates, studs at panel joints, etc. There is plenty of thermal bridging in the system, don't kid yourself.

Its the only job I've done with SIPs and it was a pain the butt on the design side.

[K_Josh87]

NIBOWMAN, don't feel as though I am attacking your position on this!!! Its not a bad system, I think it does make a nice home when its done... but this particular company created a lot of headaches, most of which had to do with the foundation, and their trusses (which they build from what I under stand)I would NEVER recommend these guys for anther foundation, However, I live in a home we put intercepts panels up for the foundation, triple plated the top plate, and hangered they floor trusses dropped between the walls, and had our wood plate to lag our first row of logs into, it worked REALLY nice and went together REALLY nice... the EPS rep we had on site told me flat out he wish they never delt with or did treated foundations.... so I am guessing they had common issues with them, however I have seen them go together very smoothy through other companies...

[bak2MN]

I built mine 6 years ago with Poly Steel icf's. They have steel in them rather than the plastic in most. I used them all the way to the roof and couldn't be happier with the end result. Quiet and don't cost much to heat and cool. Don't have any experiance with the sips but my bro law thinks they are a good idea, me not quite sold on the idea. Good luck on what ever route you choose. It is a big step to cheap out on.

[NIBOWMAN]

I did not say we did not have any issues with EPS, just that I am happy with the walls and trusses I purchased from them. We did have problems with damaged windows upon delivery. But they took care of it. The guy that did my energy star test was very helpful. He did two walk throughs during construction to make sure everything was sealed correctly. Giving us pointers on what to do in addition to the standard tecniques. All joints, sill plates, top plates, and penetrations are sealed with foam. We used 8ft wide jumbo panels for the majority, so we had half the seams. I even ran a beed of caulk along the base of the wall on the inside to ensure that my plate to concrete joint did not leak air. We did two blower door tests along with infrared scan. The first was still with open plumbing drains and vents including dryer vent. We passed for the Energy Star rating. Second was finished product about 2 weeks befor we moved in. Passed with flying colors. LIke I said before, there may be better systems, or cheaper systems that work just as well. I can only say I am happy with the choice I made and I am sure I will be happy for many years to come. The only change I would make would be to use ICFs for my 4ft. frost wall rather than concrete with rigid insulation.