Cougar shooter charged!

[Broadside]

I 100% agree with you upnorth,Its disturbing to me that most people on here have ignored the fact that it is against the law to shoot a Mountain Lion in MN. There will always be some that dont agree with certain laws and rules but if you live in MN then follow the rules,if you live in Iowa follow those rules and so on and so on! Lets also not forget that the Lion was spotted running away and was flushed out of the culvert to be shot. Now I honestly dont know what I would have done because only the two involved know exactly what happened.

[mallardnwalleye]

I agree that you should follow the law but there is a continuum of the seriousness of breaking that law. An example is we all go over the speed limit. If we get fined for going 2mph over we are a little miffed. Our garbarge cans in my town are supposed to be be behind the front of my house- They aren't and I could get fined. If I got a 200 fine I think that would be unfair. I think the person who shot the mountain lion is being treated unfairly by being fined and brought up on charges. If I were an officer or prosecutor I would look at it as a decent person who got a little wound up and shot the mountain lion. If he lived in a state where there was a season or where they are present and protected he should know the law. In Minnesota that Mountain Lion is like someone seeing an escaped leopard or something. It doesn't belong there and needs to be taken out.

This story reminds me of my best friend that shot a wild doberman pinscher on his farm. He said he saw it and then went and got his gun and when he came out to the farm yard with the gun the dog charged him agressively.He shot and missed at 40 yds and connected at 10 yds. If he thought about being a good little boy and following the law he may have had a bit arm and worse yet had to have rabies shots.

If a person sees a mountain lion in SW-MN he isn't way out of line for shooting it. The punishment should fit the crime and this guy should be excused from being fined or punished as I don't think it's a big deal. I can't believe I have spent my time thinking or writing about it as it really isn't a big deal that this guy did this.

[JIvers]

"In Minnesota that Mountain Lion is like someone seeing an escaped leopard or something. It doesn't belong there and needs to be taken out."

Mountain lion are native to Minnesota; leopard are not. May someone in SW Minnesota shoot a wild black bear, elk, or moose on sight?

And going back to my earlier post, if I see a twelve-point buck near a road, do I have the right, by your logic, to "take it out" because it might cause an accident? Deer, after all, are responsible for a lot more injury and death to humans, as well as damage to agricultural property, than are mountain lion.

[JIvers]

"If he lived in a state where there was a season or where they are present and protected he should know the law."

I agree, and the Minnesota hunting regulations make clear that there is no open season on mountain lion in the state of Minnesota.

[mallardnwalleye]

Mountain Lions aren't native to MN anymore and don't belong in SW MN and yes it's not a big deal that he shot it. Not real clear in my book that they were obviously illegal to shoot. How many people have the time to go through law books before they decide to do everything. I think the dog example shows how people can't always check a law book and comon sense and intuition come into play. Problem with this world is that too many people make a big deal out of small things like this and not a big deal about large things like work. Which is why I am done arguing with all of you cat lovers. Time to stop wasting my own time and get back to something important like work. Whew!

[JIvers]

"Mountain Lions aren't native to MN anymore and don't belong in SW MN..."

So you're saying whitetail deer and elk are not "native" to most of the state, since they were extirpated in the nineteenth century before re-populating those areas, including SW Minnesota? Are you saying there should be no protection for deer and elk?

"Not real clear in my book that they were obviously illegal to shoot."

I'm not sure how much clearer the law can be than this: "Cougars are a protected species and may only be killed by a licensed peace officer or authorized permit holder." http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mammals/cougar/index.html

"How many people have the time to go through law books before they decide to do everything."

Google "ignorance of the law" and see how well that works as a valid defense in a criminal case.

"I think the dog example shows how people can't always check a law book and comon sense and intuition come into play."

Leaving aside the fact you are using a domestic dog to argue something about a different species altogether, I knew someone who was killed when his motorcycle collided with a deer, and I know a lot of people who have suffered injuries in car-deer collisions: does that give me the right to kill every deer I see?

"Cat-lovers"?

I have no problem whatsoever with managed hunting of cougar in areas that have healthy populations of them, just like I have no problem with regulated hunting of wolf and black bear in northern Minnesota. I do have a problem with disobeying the law and killing protected animals.

[mallardnwalleye]

I agree to disagree. You are a letter to the law rule follower I am not. I believe a little discretion needs to be used with rules you don't. There is a difference between speeding and stealing. I look at what this guy did as closer to speeding- others look at it as closer to stealing. I think the punishment and prosecution of this violation are out of line with each other. The amount of discussion (my own included)of this minor infraction is also not commensurate with it's importance. I suppose I feel for the guy because I and many people I know would have shot the cougar. We don't intentionally break the law either. Whoops, I forgot my garbage cans are illegal, I think I was speeding yesterday and my one beer from ice fishing was in the back bed of my truck (open liquor). I mean intentionaly break real laws. Please don't call the police on me

[JIvers]

"We [people who would have shot the cougar] don't intentionally break the law either."

Except that you would intentionally break the law, as you admit in the very next sentence:

"I suppose I feel for the guy because I and many people I know would have shot the cougar."

Besides, as any first-year law student can tell you, ignorance of the law is no excuse. They can also tell you why it is not an excuse.

"I look at what this guy did as closer to speeding..."

Earlier you said the shooter should not be fined or punished--are you saying there are no fines for breaking the speed limit if you are caught? Are you saying there should not be fines for speeding?

"The amount of discussion (my own included)of this minor infraction is also not commensurate with it's importance."

Then why do you keep coming back to this discussion? Actually, I think I know the answer to that:

"You are a letter to the law rule follower I am not."

Pesky laws--what do we need them for, anyway?

On that note, if someone steals something from you, say a lawn mower, that I deem to be of relatively minor value, you don't have a problem with me saying the thief should not be punished for it, regardless of what the law says?

"Whoops, I forgot my garbage cans are illegal, I think I was speeding yesterday and my one beer from ice fishing was in the back bed of my truck (open liquor)."

Getting away with something, as you have done, is not the same as saying you should not be punished, should you be caught. By your logic, shop-lifting, or poaching walleye and duck, is fine, so long as you don't get caught, and then it is probably not a big deal, anyway. That is the implication of your whole argument: we have the right to ignore any law we deem to be of little importance, and should not be punished for violating any law we don't believe in.

And do you think, based on your earlier arguments, that deer should be shot on sight, regardless of what the law says? (Deer were extirpated from most of the state, like cougar, and do a lot more damage to human life and property than do mountain lion.) How about pheasant? (Not native.) Turkey? (Extirpated from the state for over one hundred years.) Black bear?

[upnorth]

I agree to disagree. You are a letter to the law rule follower I am not. I believe a little discretion needs to be used with rules you don't. There is a difference between speeding and stealing. I look at what this guy did as closer to speeding- others look at it as closer to stealing. I think the punishment and prosecution of this violation are out of line with each other. The amount of discussion (my own included)of this minor infraction is also not commensurate with it's importance. I suppose I feel for the guy because I and many people I know would have shot the cougar. We don't intentionally break the law either. Whoops, I forgot my garbage cans are illegal, I think I was speeding yesterday and my one beer from ice fishing was in the back bed of my truck (open liquor). I mean intentionaly break real laws. Please don't call the police on me

Break as many laws as you wish, just don't whine when you get nailed for it. Hey I have got nabbed for speeding, just paid my fine and shut my mouth. I was the one who knowingly broke the law and if I get punished for it, only myself to blame.

[mallardnwalleye]

In the end we all pay our fines and should follow the law. Do you think the cougar law is fair or right and the fine fits the crime? D

[BobT]

Eyehunter.

I can't add anything to what you've already said.

[upnorth]

Upto $1000 ? Seems about right for a major game violation in my thinking. Fines are there to make in prohibitive to break the law. Shouldn't bring about an "aw shucks that wasn't too bad" it should be "holy krap I ain't never gonna do that again".

The fine compared to the crime can go back and forth ad nauseum. Some people think the fines for a DUI are way too high and some that think it is ain't near enough. Can't please everyone.

[mallardnwalleye]

Do you think there should be a law against shooting a cougar in SW MN? I don't. Do you ? Do you think he should pay a $1000 fine plus $1000 restitution? I don't do you? I remember being 6 years Old up on Rainy Lake in Canada and the Mountie or CO tells my dad and myself that if he sees a minnow move he would confiscate our boat, fishing equipment andwe would be in big trouble. All very true statements but not a fair thing to say luckily that day they were on sawdust. Two days earlier we had some live ones out of ignorance and haste. I suppose that would have been okay as well. We all take what we have coming from the law but fines can be adjusted to fit the crimes. What are your answers to the above questions?

[upnorth]

My answers....are we are all entitled to our opinions. The one thing that is not arguable is, right not there is a Game Law on the books that says it is a game violation to shoot a Cougar in the state of MN.

If you really disagree with the law that vehemently, start a movement to get them off the protected list.

[mallardnwalleye]

Up North, I agree we all have our opinion and some of yours and mine are different. I agree that the laws that are on the books do have to be enforced by law officers. A judge or a jury can hand down a different punishment according to the crime, intent and other factors and on this I would probably fine the guy $50. Restitution would be waived as what is the state of MN going to do with a cougar. That said: major crimes like murder, armed robbery, burglary and white collar fraud are not punished hard enough and consistently enough. No I won't take up the cause of getting them off the list I have wasted enough of my time and yours in this internet argument.

I still think if I was in that guys shoes I would have shot it.

[upnorth]

The legal system will take a look at all aspects of what happened and make a judgement. It is easy to let ones feeling etc come into play on things like this. There are going to be those that say give him the max and there are those that will say make it a token fine and be done with it. That is why we have judge and jury, who will hopefully look at this with some semblance of impartiality and set judgement.

[heat checker]

The question that keeps coming to my mind is, "Why IS there a rule in the lawbook that protects an animal species that doesn't exist in the state"?

[bobbymalone]

The question that keeps coming to my mind is, "Why IS there a rule in the lawbook that protects an animal species that doesn't exist in the state"?

The question that keeps coming to mind is why do people think their is a huge conspiracy and cover up about mountain lions in Minnesota when there clearly is not nor has there been.

[Jmnhunter]

did you know WA state has a law that you cant shoot bigfoot?

[lichen fox]

And every year our legislatures pass laws to make it illegal to pass laws that don't exist! So, in this case the legislature passed a law to protect a living animal that, (at the time), did not exist in MN...and we all have to abide by the rules...I wonder if african lions, brown bears, grizzly bears and polar bears are protected in MN as well...you never know when one may wonder into our state! And if one of those was standing in your livestock yard or on your lawn...could you shoot it?

[lichen fox]

And in any case...here is an excerpt from the DNR HSOforum explaining why the Mt. Lion is listed as a "special concern" species in MN...

Basis for Listing

The historical distribution of mountain lions, also known as cougars or pumas, ranged from British Columbia, Canada, to southern Chile and Argentina, and from coast-to-coast in North America (Young and Goldman 1946; Russell 1978). Persecution by humans and changing land uses have restricted their range to relatively unpopulated areas and remote mountainous regions, although isolated populations may exist elsewhere (Currier 1983). Although mountain lions once roamed over most of Minnesota, they were never common. Very few authenticated specimens have been taken from Minnesota in the last century, although periodic sightings are reported, including several by knowledgeable observers (Bue and Stenlund 1953). Because of this, and the fact that this species is particularly sensitive to human disturbance, mountain lions are a species of special concern in Minnesota. However, because there is no evidence of a viable breeding population in Minnesota (Minnesota DNR 2009), mountain lions are not currently tracked in the DNR's Rare Features Database

[Eric Wettschreck]

I wonder if african lions, brown bears, grizzly bears and polar bears are protected in MN as well

And Honey Badgers.

Granted, they wouldn't care if a law was passed to protect them.