would a noon start help Mn pheasant numbers?

[pureinsanity]

I know we use to get up at 7 am, get ready, let the doggies tinkle and head over to get breakfast at various restaurants. Now, since our crew of 8-10 people turned into 2 people we just hit the hotel breakfast bar every morning.

Guy hit it hard every night out there unless they are beat from a lot of walking. I wouldn't say the noon makes guys party harder. Whether we did or didn't we were still on the road at 9:30 - 10 just to get to our land and talk with the farmers to see where we could go today.

[castmaster]

PureInsanity,

My point is that thee are areas taht do have habitat that will hold birds through the winter and also have nesting cover, that have NO birds. Those birds arent going to magically appear from miles away. If we dont place some birds in locations that have habitat then where does it start?

I'm not saying plant adult birds that have been pen raised all their lives. I am saying start placing some surrogaters on site, hatch the birds, raise in the surrogaters until able to be released and then do it. Seems to work well in the areas its used, in fact I know of more than a couple places in SD that use them after particularly hard winters or springs to help keep hen #'s up which allows a quicker rebound when conditions are better. Also work well in the south for re-establishing quail populations after habitat improvement.

New Jersey released 55,000 birds onto 23 WMA's this fall. If my memory isnt failing me they are finding about a 5% retention/survival rate on those birds into the winter/spring seasons (I could be wrong on the %, just going off memory). Just think, given the #'s as to how many chicks a single hen may have, and how many hens a rooster can breed, and just those 2750 "new" birds that make it through will make some gains in sustaining and rebuilding populations. To quote the article" this is showing great promise". The birds NJ releases are also adult pen raised birds, not birds raised in surrogaters and released on site.

To say this was tried in the 1960's and didnt work so it will never work is insane. I'd say technology, understanding of the biological factors effecting transplant etc have come along ways in the past half century.

And no I dont think its some magic answer that will solve all the problems. Without habitat there will still be no birds, what it might do is allow a few more birds to breed, and might allow some birds to get back into areas that lost birds because of lack of habitat, that have now been improved and still have no birds. Think most public hunting areas in MN, the surrounding land is usually not hte best habitat, the birds have that one "oasis" that gives them what they need. But if there are few, or no, birds already existing when those improvements to habitat are made, they certainly arent packing up a uhaul and moving from Chamberlain! ya got to get them there somehow.

[castmaster]

I certainly dont want to come across like I'm saying our habitat is just fine here in MN and we just need to plant some birds. Our habitat SUCKS for the most part compared with states that have better #'s. My comments are directed more at the fact that there are areas that have had habitat improvement, both public and private, that still have no birds, because there were no birds there to start with, and no birds on surrounding properties. Improving that habitat until its the best in the world wont make birds magically appear. They have to come from somewhere, and if the wild population isnt sufficient in that area, they will have to be planted/raised.

[pureinsanity]

I certainly dont want to come across like I'm saying our habitat is just fine here in MN and we just need to plant some birds. Our habitat SUCKS for the most part compared with states that have better #'s. My comments are directed more at the fact that there are areas that have had habitat improvement, both public and private, that still have no birds, because there were no birds there to start with, and no birds on surrounding properties. Improving that habitat until its the best in the world wont make birds magically appear. They have to come from somewhere, and if the wild population isnt sufficient in that area, they will have to be planted/raised.

I don't want to come across as a know it all. I want to say that I never said it wouldn't work. It obviously worked on the introduction to the Pheasant, to the Turkey, and to the Asian Beetle.

I am just saying once it is established, it cannot be repeated. For instance, the pheasant was introduced, it took off, it prospered. Habitat changed, so did the numbers. No matter how you look at it. Habitat will only allow so many of the same species in that habitat. If the wild population isn't present in that area, it is because the habitat doesn't allow it! Build it and they will come.

To argue my case, we can look at scratch birds. Several game farms have Chukar. It is safe to say that because of the pheasant habitat, the large amount of food, that the Chukar should be able to prosper, reproduce and thrive in our environment. Wrong.

It is interesting that the chukar was introduced into 30-something states but survived only in arid, mountainous, rocky terrain. When planted where they could find a free meal - like an Iowa cornfield - they packed up and moved West. If there are no birds on a certain place, it is because that habitat LACKS something they want. It may look good to you or me. It might have all the signs of prosperous bird land. But all it takes is it to be missing that one vital thing, and there will be no birds there. Pheasants do not migrate, but they move to the appropriate habitat for appropriate times.

You may argue this, but take your favorite pheasant land and bulldoze it. Do you think all those birds are going to die? Or do you think they are going to travel to the next area that they already know about that has all the key sources they need? Ever notice when you flush birds they always have an escape route? They have one for each direction the wind is blowing so they can ride the wind into safety at the next habitat to them.

So again, if there are NOT birds on a specific habitat. It is very likely that the reasoning behind it is due to a lacking habitat or not reason for them to stay there because they are missing something vital they need.

All species have their range. Supporting what you are saying is like some guy from up north building the perfect pheasant habitat stocking it and having it take off and all the sudden a large abundance of pheasants are in the north country. It is not going to happen no matter how hard you try.

again I am not trying to come off as a bad guy here.

[candiru]

I think the birds in the Dakotas have some nesting success in the small grain fields. Something that has almost disappeared in MN. It seems like MN farmers all turn their fields black in the fall - in the Dakotas, they don't.

[muc33]

There is some very good thoughts in here, thanks for all keeping it civil! I appreciate it, and enjoy hearing the debate.

[rundrave]

Definately some good thoughts, I wasn't sure what direction this thread would go, but just wanted to elaborate more on the article I had read, strictly for conversation.

I have been limiting my hunts to short ones just before dark with the heat we have had up until this week. Looking forward to really hitting the birds hard with my dogs now the temps are dropping.

hope everyone enjoys the rest of their season!

[gspman]

Quote:

would a noon start help Mn pheasant numbers?

No.

[castmaster]

Been away from the computer for awhile, getting some hunting in. During our trip to SD the last weekend in October I talked to a couple guides from commercial outfits as well as maybe a dozen landowners and learned some things I didnt know before. Apparently its a fairly common practice among outfitters to release hens in the spring to increase chances for successful nesting. The one guide said the place he worked for released 3,000 hens on their property last spring. One of the farmers we talked to said the SD DNR released 30 hens on his property that were fitted with radio telemetry so their nesting could be monitored. One of the hens renested 4 times until finally having a successful hatch, of 2 chicks. She had nested in a winter wheat field, that was harvested before hatch. She then renested in a crp field and the nest was raided by a predator. I cant remember what he said happened to the other nests.

Just found it interesting how much "help" the pheasants get out there, and think its a fairly significant role in why they have hte birds they do. Great habitat in some areas, sufficient habitat in others, and the ability and willingness to do what they can to increase bird numbers after suffering losses.

[QueticoTim]

Noon start would have no effect on pheasants. SD does it as a tradition and so hunters will go out drinking the night before and spend money locally

The research has been done over and over. Releasing pen raised pheasants doesn't help the population. SD has more pheasants for one reason and that is habitat.

If MN or Pheasants forever starts wasting my donations or taxes on releasing birds instead of getting better cover then I'll be [PoorWordUsage]! Land and cover are the "help" the pheasant population needs. Releasing birds is a huge waste of money.

T

[BobT]

Quote:

The research has been done over and over. Releasing pen raised pheasants doesn't help the population. SD has more pheasants for one reason and that is habitat.

I'm sure that's a big part of it but I've also heard that a lot of those private land owners that lease their land also truck in pheasants to stock their places. I am only repeating what I've heard so take what I say the way you see fit.

I would also agree that habitat is the absolute most beneficial key.

[BirdWhisperer]

The last few comments have been true...to an extent. First, SD GF&P (not DNR) did not release the 30 hens for the telemetry, it was a grad. project by a student at SDSU who had a number of hen pheasants strapped and released near Presho, SD. And yes, it was remarkable to see that one of the hens re-nested 4 times, although she was extremely stressed and fitness greatly dropped after each failed brood.

Next, there may be a few landowners and/or shooting preserve operators who release hens, but it has been studied and the idead that "releasing pen-reared hen pheasants in the spring to 'boost' populations" has ben rejected. After talking to any shooting preserve operator, they'll tell you the only reason they may release a couple of hens with the 30,000+ roosters they release each year, is to make the hunt seem more "wild" for out-of-state hunters.

Finally, for "Landdr"...with your comment about landowners in SD having better control of the predators both 4-legged and with feathers; are you saying we should be killing hawks so we can have a few more pheasants?

Hope I didn't offend anyone or anything, just trying to put a few facts out there. As stated numerous times on this thread, there's a lot of good comments out there and speculation as to how MN can increase bird numbers, but realistically it all comes down to habitat. Now, we just have to get more people plant some prairie!

[pureinsanity]

I can tell the difference in a wild bird vs a pen raised bird. Anyone that has hunted at a game farm or preserve will be able to do the same.

I know for a fact I have not shot a single pen raised bird on the land I hunt in SD.

just Sayin.

[TruthWalleyes]

I can tell the difference in a wild bird vs a pen raised bird. Anyone that has hunted at a game farm or preserve will be able to do the same.

I know for a fact I have not shot a single pen raised bird on the land I hunt in SD.

just Sayin.

My dad raises pheasants on the farm...I'll ring one of their necks and have for dinner any day! Good eat'n corn fed pheasants! So whats the obvious difference? I notice the pen raised birds are more beat up...beyond that?

[pureinsanity]

So whats the obvious difference? I notice the pen raised birds are more beat up...beyond that?

It is like comparing a F-15 fighter jet to a Cessna 182.

Put it this way, there is nothing wrong with game farms and pen raised birds. It simply is not for me...

I have taken a few guys out who are "pheasant hunters," you know the game farm kind.... When I get them on wild birds and a bird flushes, flies away in seconds, flies higher then tree tops, they yell what was that???

Some basic difference in my opinion.

1. Size. Wild birds are always bigger unless they are young this years broods.

2. pen raised birds don't run, they walk or jog.

3. they fly minimal distances because they have absolutely no wing muscles because they cant fly in their pens.

4. they are use to people.

5. they have absolutely no instinct.

6. they are slow

7. they are really slow

8. they are so slow you can actually take your time and get a good shot everytime.

[TruthWalleyes]

Ok, Now i'm with ya. I've never hunted farm raised birds...but I understand all the "differences" you've listed!

It would be comical to hunt with some "Game farm pheasant hunters" now that you brought up the physical differences of wild vs farm birds i completely understand your first comparison. I also thing that the first week of hunting the birds are slow as terds, but come december - when the birds fly away just because you pulled up to the field access...they've gotten smarter and are faster flushing.

[pureinsanity]

Ok, Now i'm with ya. I've never hunted farm raised birds...but I understand all the "differences" you've listed!

It would be comical to hunt with some "Game farm pheasant hunters" now that you brought up the physical differences of wild vs farm birds i completely understand your first comparison. I also thing that the first week of hunting the birds are slow as terds, but come december - when the birds fly away just because you pulled up to the field access...they've gotten smarter and are faster flushing.

You've nailed it on the head!

I remember the first time I took a colleague of mine out hunting wild pheasants. He bought a lab, bought it training, and bought a gun club membership. All he had "hunted" was game farms. I took him to a spot where I always flush a few birds. Instantly, up gets a hen! It put on the afterburners, made a steep climb over trees and flew a football field length away gliding into safety.

He started firing at it and I started laughing. He said what the heck was that thing? I said that was a a good miss and a scared hen. He said a hen what? I said a hen pheasant! He said really, that thing flew so fast and went over the trees and way out there? No way it was a pheasant, it flew too fast and too high! I just laughed and said welcome to real hunting.

I agree with you on the late december hunts! I typically do not hunt much pheasants around here until the sloughs are fozen solid and the snow is thick. Less competition on public land, only the smart birds are left, and you have to use skill and tactics to bag a bird. I have a few tricks up my sleve for late season public land hunts!

The best part about late season bird is using your skills and knowledge to think a head of the bird. any bird bagged is an accomplishment as you stated most birds flush as soon as the car rolls to a stop and a door opens up.

[hawgchaser]

As a SD native who spent his first 43 yr. in SD, I'll offer some historical observations which might give some insights. MN was ahead of SD in wetland drainage, tile systems, etc.. Few farms in the areas I've lived in in eastern SD ever saw drain tile or land leveling while Mn was draining,leveling/tiling extensively (funded by tax dollars I might add). This drainage/leveling had the goal of condensing the water into specific impounds...hence the lack of buffer zones around sloughs/ponds that is familiar in SD. The wetlands act curtailed a good deal of drainage possibilities, but all drainage systems put in place can be maintained. (and most are). I would add that grain yields in SD average less than those in MN and made soil bank and CRP (its successor program) more attractive to SD farmers. With grain prices high and a lot of the CRP land being put back into tillage, I think it predictable that pheasant numbers will fall off dramatically in eastern SD again in the near future.

Not an expert by any means. Just a good observer and an older f*rt.

[rundrave]

With grain prices high and a lot of the CRP land being put back into tillage, I think it predictable that pheasant numbers will fall off dramatically in eastern SD again in the near future.

Not an expert by any means. Just a good observer and an older f*rt.

you are spot on from my observations here in SE SD. I am seeing cover being burned and plowed under daily right now right even in my own back yard. Each time I go out hunting the same thing is happening to a different area and not far behind all of them is the big black coil of drain tile pipe. They are definitely taking advantage of the dry weather.

Its a sad sight to see, just for a couple more rows of crops. To each his own I cant fault them for doing it. Its hard to imagine a couple extra rows can make up for the all fuel used to do all of that work with all the heavy equipment that is associated with it.

[CodyDawg]

I believe it was Cast who said "when was the last time MN had good bird numbers?" and the 2000s were not so good (paraphrasing).

Dude, did you hunt in the 2000s ? It was awesome in the late 2000s! I/we shout our limit dang near every time out across west central MN. I watched over 200 birds get out of a cattail slough. Those are SD-like numbers and this wasnt within 100 miles of the border.

This year, where there is good habitat you have birds. Not as many as the spring and winter sucked, but there are birds.

Why is SD better? Obviously as has been stated, habitat for one. And usually 2 weeeks less of winter in both the spring and fall. they usually dont have the depth of snow cover either. it all adds up to more birds. what can you do? put your dollars in PF to get more habitat on the ground.

[hawgchaser]

Rundrave,

Sad to hear that but expected it. The bright side is that, unless the wetland laws have been greatly weakened recently, the existing wetland habitat will not be destroyed and may even be enhanced by some of the drainage efforts. All that black drain pipe is probably being used to speed drainage from low spots in existing fields that would be planted anyway (most years). It is mainly to improve yields and will probably have little effect on habitat (long term). Wetlands are not officially identified/classified just by water but by vegetative types visible from the air. We had a 7 acre wetland on the home farm that probably never raised a duck as it dried up before nesting most years. What it failed to raise in ducks, it more than made up for in pheasant production. It's classified wetland and will never be drained (under wetland laws) unless another 7 acre wetland is created.

[pureinsanity]

I believe it was Cast who said "when was the last time MN had good bird numbers?" and the 2000s were not so good (paraphrasing).

Dude, did you hunt in the 2000s ? It was awesome in the late 2000s! I/we shout our limit dang near every time out across west central MN. I watched over 200 birds get out of a cattail slough. Those are SD-like numbers and this wasnt within 100 miles of the border.

This year, where there is good habitat you have birds. Not as many as the spring and winter sucked, but there are birds.

Why is SD better? Obviously as has been stated, habitat for one. And usually 2 weeeks less of winter in both the spring and fall. they usually dont have the depth of snow cover either. it all adds up to more birds. what can you do? put your dollars in PF to get more habitat on the ground.

2000???? Nah! Soil Bank Days... That is when the birds were the best...

[hawgchaser]

Quote:

2000???? Nah! Soil Bank Days... That is when the birds were the best...

The soil bank days! 5 rooster limits; 20 shooters in the hunting party; started shooting at noon; usually quit and had lunch around 2:00 when everyone had their limit. And that was without the benefit of hunting dogs.

[castmaster]

The soil bank days! 5 rooster limits; 20 shooters in the hunting party; started shooting at noon; usually quit and had lunch around 2:00 when everyone had their limit. And that was without the benefit of hunting dogs.

[pureinsanity]

On average a pheasant will travel up to one square mile for food, water, shelter, ect. So what is stopping them from going further???

It is interesting that the chukar was introduced into 30-something states but survived only in arid, mountainous, rocky terrain. When planted where they could find a free meal - like an Iowa cornfield - they packed up and moved West.

All birds will move until they find what they need...

Build it and they will come IF it is in their range of habitat.