Pointing Labs??

[Ufatz]

O.Kto delve too much more into thisI've been told I'm nuts on more than one occassion, but I've seen the morphing of the Lab over the last 30 years.... I will still try to continue to produce those dogs. They ARE the reason we all want a lab! some will be winners, some will be hunters, some will lie on the step waiting for their Masters, not because it's all they each could do, it's because it's what you wanted them to do.

Good Luck!

Ken

Well Ken, I have watched this saddness a few decades more than that. You've done an excellent job of describing precisely what the process has been to "select out" specific traits of a marvelous breed and create something new. I fear the tomato geneticists-famous for their ability to create a tomato that packs better but has no taste- served as role models for some dog guys.

Us old farts can't change things...all we can do is shake our heads, grumble in our beard stubble and gaze at fading black and white photos of dogs long gone but well remembered.

[pikeguy2003]

Thank you for the clarification. I did some more research and stand corrected. Guess you cannot believe everything a professional trainer tells you. I am not referring to Tom Dokken or any of his people. Just a guy that did some follow up training for me. I am saddened to hear what is going on with the breeding of labs. It was really cool that my lab pointed, but I didn't buy that dog because of that reason. I was looking for an all purpose dog that I could use for waterfowl, pheasants, and also a good disposition as it was going to be an indoor dog. I have always believed the best hunting dogs are kept in the house with the family and tend to listen better in the field because I could work with them on a regular basis. So when my current dog is no longer with us, and we are looking to get the next lab pup, I am wondering where to go. I am guessing I will stay away from show dog breeders and breeders that are trying to create pointing labs. Looks like it is going to take some research. Thanks for the insight.

[LABS4ME]

I wouldn't make a blanket statement that you will be staying away from any one type of breeding or breeder. I know a show breeder that produces excellent field dogs. She does not hunt test them (I think she should) but her dogs are hunted and routinely get sold to hunters and they do a fine job. I'm sure there are plenty of fine 'pointing' lab breedings that are worth a look at. My statements just point to the general aspects of deciding how breeders are going to choose dogs for breeding...

I think it is best to ask your self what it is you are looking for in a dog. If it is a great coat and build and calm biddable demeanor for waterfowl hunting, than do your search geared for that criteria, if it is for upland hunting... maybe a pointing line will work for you. Like I said, I want it all and it can be bred and still found today.

Good Luck!

Ken

[eagle_3464]

Quote:

Agree on point as far as trial dogs goes. It is show dogs also... and now pointers (the smallest suitable pool of breeding dgos of the above 3)... when a select core of breeders line breed or inbreed down a specific lineage of dogs, it does damage the breed as a whole. The trialers all say I'm nuts... the show people all say I'm nuts and eventually the 'pointing' lab people will say I'm nuts too. Plain and simple, all these breedings are looking to get the one best attribute out of the dog to "WIN" and ultimately make money and in some cases really caress an ego. Most would forgo a potential sire for a breeding if he could really enhance your pups... say a Champion - Master Hunter in lieu of a GMPR or FC that has only a so-so coat and whippy tail and snipey face. Trialers will do that to get a hot derby prospect, show people will too so they can get the next Ginger in lieu of a Mary-Ann. It is what 'they' want... not nessacarily what's best as a whole for the breed.

Let's be honest, the pointing lab people will alwys go back to a pointing line solely to keep buiilding on the pointing ability. The trialer will ultimately breed back to the winningest marking dog... and both will disregard many other fine attributes of the Labrador breed. They are not needed in their breedings. ie: true lab structure, coat, bidability, calm demeanor, natural intelligence etc... A well rounded well thought out breeding is now a: maximize the parts "I" need the most. The show people do it also... perfect structure, coat, calm demeanor and only need be smart as a bag of wet diapers. Field ability and intelligence are not needed in the ring. Unfortunately, it was not that many decades ago when we still had Dual Champs. Too bad... I really think those days are gone. We breed not for the whole of the breed, but the parts in which we feel best reflect what we want to see in a dog. The rest will be taken care of with collars, in depth training regimens and neoprene vests.

To each their own. I Love all Labs, the trial dogs, the pointing dogs, the show dogs, the hunting dogs, the lie on the step at the fishing resort dogs.... they're all good... but the ones I love the most, are the ones whom are all of the above! The epitome of a Lab that comes close to all those are the Hiwood dogs of yester year and Ray Vreeland's "Sky Watch Radar". All natural, all pleasing, great coat to ward off the November water, easy on the eye, easy on the vocal cords, a joy to have rubbing on your leg at heel or to put your hand over for a blind... That my friends is a Lab!

I have really big shoulders and most will disagree with me, and that is the reason I should stay out of these debates... I've been told I'm nuts on more than one occassion, but I've seen the morphing of the Lab over the last 30 years.... I will still try to continue to produce those dogs. They ARE the reason we all want a lab! some will be winners, some will be hunters, some will lie on the step waiting for their Masters, not because it's all they each could do, it's because it's what you wanted them to do.

Ken, excellent post which deserves an applause. Some previous posts seemed to be targetting one specific trait being bred in labs. I am in complete agreement with this post indicating that specific traits are being bred across the board. I am sure this is happening in other breeds as well, just maybe not to the extent as it is in labs. The sad part is as long as there is a market for a specific trait, whether it be point, show, trial or whatever, those breedings will continue to push further and further away from the classic labrador. Maybe the AKC needs to step in and require that both sire and dam are inspected and meet AKC requirements for pups to be eligible for AKC registration.

[LABS4ME]

and cut off the endless supply of money to register ALL those labs?

Good Luck!

Ken

(now I'm just being cynical!) HA!

[eagle_3464]

Yeah your right, that probably wouldn't get far. Lots of people will take notice on a litter that is "AKC Registered" but in reality is says little in terms of pup quality.

[CigarGuy]

Here's what beautiful dog looks like:) This is from one of Ken's litter's.

Plus, she can hunt and she has a ton of personality

[flipper]

My little lab is a pointer. She is by far the smartest, most athletic lab I have ever owned. She is a little harder headed than other labs too.

Not the best pic, but here she is:

[eagle_3464]

CG, nice looking dog. There is no doubt Ken breeds some nice dogs. Here is my girl and she has a great nose for finding birds, pointing them, marking the fall and retrieving them. She also loves to retrieve anything she can from the water.

[Ufatz]

Here's what beautiful dog looks like:) This is from one of Ken's litter's.

Plus, she can hunt and she has a ton of personality

Nice looking dog Cigarguy. Give her an ear scratch for me. Ha Ha!!

[CigarGuy]

Thanks guy's. "Back at ya", with the nice looking dog's! She's a great house/family dog, but when she sees the gun's being loaded in the truck, she flips a switch to hunting mode. I was a little worried about her being so much more mellow than my old girl I use to have. It just amazes me how she can turn it on when she hits the field.

Last year was a very short hunting season for me with the early heavy-wet snow at the hunting preserve I belong to. Ya, I'm a hunting preserve guy:) Plus, I couldn't make the annual trip to So.Dak, so I'm really fired up about this year.

[BLACKJACK]

Was looking at my Fall Pheasants Forever magazine over the weekend, looking at the ads for labs in the back, there was probably 7-8 ads, and EVERY ad was advertising pointing labs!!!!

What does that tell you?????!!

[reddog]

Was looking at my Fall Pheasants Forever magazine over the weekend, looking at the ads for labs in the back, there was probably 7-8 ads, and EVERY ad was advertising pointing labs!!!!

What does that tell you?????!!

All the traditionals are sold.

[gspman]

Was looking at my Fall Pheasants Forever magazine over the weekend, looking at the ads for labs in the back, there was probably 7-8 ads, and EVERY ad was advertising pointing labs!!!!

What does that tell you?????!!

It tells me they're making a lot of money on pointing labs.

I'm sure pointing labs do a fine job and they fit the bill well for those that love their labs but want their birds pointed.

[BLACKJACK]

It tells me they're making a lot of money on pointing labs.

Bingo!!! Whos driving the trend, the buyers or sellers??

[eagle_3464]

Not all litters are, but through responsible selective breedings the point instinct in labs is getting better and better. In most good breedings from what I have seen the "point" is not at all sacrificing the prey drive and retrieve drive of these dogs as many believe. I believe it is the buyers who are driving this trend. More and more people are seeing what these good dogs are capable of in the field and once they see it with their own eyes are convinced. Sellers are simply offering what buyers want. I know a breeder who imports dogs from England, who several years ago would have nothing to do with pointing labs. In the past year he has bred twice to APLA GMPR's.

[BLACKJACK]

So I called last night on a lab ad out of the Sunday Strib, the guy was selling/promoting his pups as out of ----- drum roll please ----- dock jumping champions!!!! Frickin dock jumping champions!!! I almost spit into the phone!!! NOT!!!

[hunt fish repeat]

Starting the hunt for a new lab pup, been reading a few articles on pointing labs, sounds interesting, have a pointer with a lab personality, was wondering if they're the real deal or if they're just another marketing strategy like British labs or red labs??

If you have a pointing lab, please chime in, I'd like to hear your experience!! Also, what happens if you run a pointing lab with a non-pointing, flushing lab??

Obviously I must have fell for the marketing gimmick I have a fox red british lab from a breeder in Dassel, Mn (actually my reasoning on the color is my hunting partners have two blacks and a yellow) last year was his second full season of hunting and I was amazed (humored) to see him start pointing. He was not bred for any pointing ability and has never been around a pointer so that recessed trait has to come from somewhere. I am sure I could probably train him to point but have no desire for a pointer so I don't encourage the behavior. To see a well trained pointer in action is an amazing thing I just prefer the rush of the "flush".

....my wife was out blowing leaves out of the yard with the leaf blower yesterday while my dog curiously looked on, after a few minutes he went in the garage and came out with a tennis ball and dropped it in the leaves in front of the blower so he could chase it. this went on for the next 45 minutes. The dog hates the leaf blower but he loves to retrieve even more.