Help with new Lab - retreiving birds

[summit090706]

So I took my one year old (just turned July 31st) Chocolate lab out to a game farm today. We let him run down a few and he did great in the field. But when we shot them he would find them and stand over and grab them and then drop them. He would not bring it to me. He will bring a training dumbie, a tennis ball or anything else I tell him to retrieve. thoughts on how to get him to retrieve a downed bird?

Thanks - Bradley

[Todd Caswell]

IS THIS HIS FIST EXPERIENCE WITH REAL BIRDS? IF SO I WOULD CONTACT A RETRIEVER CLUB AND SEE IF YOU CAN GET A COUPLE OF TRAINING BIRDS FROM THEM. I TRY TO USE BIRDS ALL THE TIME AFTER THE DOG HAS BEEN FF. THE ONY TIME I USE BUMPERS IS FOR WATER MARKS...

[Ufatz]

I'd just tie a dead bird up tight with string and go work the dog just like that "package" was one of his bumpers/dummies. Keep at it, tossing it and getting dog all excited. Yes, it will ruin the bird, but once he gets it in his head that you WANT him to get it he'll be okay.

Don't over-think some of this stuff.

[summit090706]

Thanks for the advice. I will see if I can get some training birds and I have some wings that I will tape to a dumby and see if that helps.....I was very happy with is working the field

Thanks to all..

[gatorhunter]

1) Sit it down. Put a training dummy on the ground directly in front of him. Tell him to fetch. If he fetches, GIVE COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE! Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

2) Sit it down. Put a dead pigeon on the ground directly in front of him. Tell him to fetch. If he fetches, GIVE COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE! If he doesn't fetch, grab one of his ears and PINCH UNTIL HE YELPS AND HIS MOUTH OPENS. STICK THE PIGEON IN HIS MOUTH AND RELEASE THE PINCH. GIVE COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE.

3) Repeat #2 if necessary. Probably need to do this 3 or 4 times if he's a smart dog. Slow learner might need a couple more reps. Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

4) When he's mastered the pigeon, use a larger bird...teal. COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE WHEN HE PICKS UP THE BIRD! Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

5) When he's mastered the teal, use a larger bird...mallard. COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE WHEN HE PICKS UP THE BIRD! Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

6) Keep using same procedure and move up to a Canada Goose. Repeat the praise procedure every time he does good! Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

The principle behind this type of training is that the dog must fetch anything his master tells him to. From duck to steel brush, if the master tells the dog to fetch it, the dog must fetch it. This last statement is only an analogy as we want our dogs to only fetch birds, training dummies or their favorite toys!

My lab had his ear pinched 3 times right off the start. That's it! He picked up every bird on the fetch command after having his ear pinched 3 times over the training dummy.

[Ufatz]

Yeah.....well if I pinched YOUR ear hard enough with a pliers I'd soon have YOU picking up some fresh gator [PoorWordUsage] and LIKING it! Ha ha ha

Never pinched one yet.

Use the dead bird ya just shot. Don't over think this stuff you guys.

[smnduck]

A frozen bird works well for making your "dummy" last. Throw a few times a day and back in the freezer.

[Todd Caswell]

1) Sit it down. Put a training dummy on the ground directly in front of him. Tell him to fetch. If he fetches, GIVE COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE! Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

2) Sit it down. Put a dead pigeon on the ground directly in front of him. Tell him to fetch. If he fetches, GIVE COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE! If he doesn't fetch, grab one of his ears and PINCH UNTIL HE YELPS AND HIS MOUTH OPENS. STICK THE PIGEON IN HIS MOUTH AND RELEASE THE PINCH. GIVE COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE.

3) Repeat #2 if necessary. Probably need to do this 3 or 4 times if he's a smart dog. Slow learner might need a couple more reps. Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

4) When he's mastered the pigeon, use a larger bird...teal. COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE WHEN HE PICKS UP THE BIRD! Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

5) When he's mastered the teal, use a larger bird...mallard. COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE WHEN HE PICKS UP THE BIRD! Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

6) Keep using same procedure and move up to a Canada Goose. Repeat the praise procedure every time he does good! Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

The principle behind this type of training is that the dog must fetch anything his master tells him to. From duck to steel brush, if the master tells the dog to fetch it, the dog must fetch it. This last statement is only an analogy as we want our dogs to only fetch birds, training dummies or their favorite toys!

My lab had his ear pinched 3 times right off the start. That's it! He picked up every bird on the fetch command after having his ear pinched 3 times over the training dummy.

Well thats a really rustic version of FF, if the OP is interested in FF his dog, there quiet a few steps befor ear pinching begins to ensure the dog understands what is being asked of them. Guarenteed your dog is not fully FF by pinching his ear 3 times. Nothing like good old internet training...

[gatorhunter]

Well thats a really rustic version of FF, if the OP is interested in FF his dog, there quiet a few steps befor ear pinching begins to ensure the dog understands what is being asked of them. Guarenteed your dog is not fully FF by pinching his ear 3 times. Nothing like good old internet training...

After exercising every option including those recommended by REAL dog trainers, another REAL dog trainer said that it looked like I'd have to FF using that technique. 3 year old lab who still ran down the bird and then looked at me to come pick it up, I figure wt heck.

I love my dog as much any one else loves theirs and certainly a lot more than the professional trainer who takes your money but doesn't give a rat's rear end about you or your dog! It was difficult to inflict the pain associated with the ear pinch. However, it was absolutely worth it. By the same token, my dog doesn't get 5 second bursts of shock collar because he didn't sit on command or short whistle. All that was done with praise!

Speaking of internet training....

[Todd Caswell]

Hey I'm all for FF and CC wouldn't own a dog that wasn't. Yes we ear pinch, nope it's not fun probably my least faverite part of starting a young dog. BUT the advice you gave was missing 75% of the ff process, not the best info to give a guy who is obviously new to training.

Had your dog been through the WHOLE FF process. I don't FF with birds, if done properly and throuly with bumpers, there usually is no need to FF with birds, the transition from bumpers to birds goes pretty smooth..

[Ufatz]

That is a PRETTY dog. Happy to hear he came around easily to picking up birds....or anything else. I have been lucky I guess in getting good quick dogs from the start. And for those worried about my "internet training" qualifications I feel you must know I started with my first dog in the early 50's as a young fella and have been with Lab's since 1963. Ahem....there WAS no Internet then....so that sure ain't where I learned it. Ha Ha Ha. Have had three Labs at a time on occasion. My present dog (last dog-I'm old) would pick up the boat and bring it to me if she could. She learned how working with me off the deck in the mornings during coffee time. Not a pliers in sight. I KNOW sometimes guys gotta do it I guess. And I KNOW when you do you surely don't like to do it and if you DO like to do it your a jerk. Or worse!

But I continue to say if you down a bird in the field and dog will not pick it up stop hunting right then and work with that dead bird.

[gatorhunter]

Mine would crawl through broken glass for any training dummy (with wings attached) and his Dokken mallard and canada goose dummies. But he sure didn't like the real deal.

Yes I left out a lot in the original post but as you know, there are complete chapters if not books on FF. Pretty hard to Reader's Digest that.

I should've stated to research FF instead!

So here goes, forced fetching has been used by many retriever trainers. Research that subject and see if it is something that you might want to pursue.

[duckbuster]

1) Sit it down. Put a training dummy on the ground directly in front of him. Tell him to fetch. If he fetches, GIVE COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE! Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

2) Sit it down. Put a dead pigeon on the ground directly in front of him. Tell him to fetch. If he fetches, GIVE COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE! If he doesn't fetch, grab one of his ears and PINCH UNTIL HE YELPS AND HIS MOUTH OPENS. STICK THE PIGEON IN HIS MOUTH AND RELEASE THE PINCH. GIVE COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE.

3) Repeat #2 if necessary. Probably need to do this 3 or 4 times if he's a smart dog. Slow learner might need a couple more reps. Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

4) When he's mastered the pigeon, use a larger bird...teal. COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE WHEN HE PICKS UP THE BIRD! Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

5) When he's mastered the teal, use a larger bird...mallard. COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF PRAISE WHEN HE PICKS UP THE BIRD! Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

6) Keep using same procedure and move up to a Canada Goose. Repeat the praise procedure every time he does good! Repeat several times per day for 3 to 5 days.

The principle behind this type of training is that the dog must fetch anything his master tells him to. From duck to steel brush, if the master tells the dog to fetch it, the dog must fetch it. This last statement is only an analogy as we want our dogs to only fetch birds, training dummies or their favorite toys!

My lab had his ear pinched 3 times right off the start. That's it! He picked up every bird on the fetch command after having his ear pinched 3 times over the training dummy.

Before you do all what is written above you must first start with the HOLD!! Force the bird into the mouth and tell him to hold by applying some pressure to the bottom of his jaw upward. You do not move onto the fetch until he is walking around the garage on a lead and holding the bumper/bird properly. Once the hold is accomplished then you move on to the fetch step.

GOOD LUCK!!

[summit090706]

Hello all, I greatly appreciate all the advice. I like having numerous options. Here is my take after one day I think he does not like the taste / feel of the feathers. He will hold a dummy, so what I did was take the wings and through them in the yard and have him fetch them, he would get them to me and I would give him lots of praise and a treat...he did pretty good.....I will continue and see how it goes.

Thanks again and appreciate all the advice I get when I post. Thanks so much

[eagle_3464]

I would highly recommend purchasing a good FF program and following it to a "T". FF is probably one of the most important steps to a complete gundog. I have the Evan Graham Smartwork series and the Smartfetch is an excellent program. Very good step by step video explaining why and how for each step. After transitioning to pigeons, chukars, and pheasants I thought we were complete. That is until our first intro to ducks. With the oils ducks taste and feel different than upland birds so she was reluctant to pick them up. Back to FF using ducks. Actually went through the entire process again to solidify each step. Now, she will retrieve anything from birds to 2x4's to framing hammers. As mentioned, the ear pinch is not fun but an important step in getting the dog to understand what is required and the difference of a ho hum retriever and one on a mission. Some steps include: hold, walking hold, fetch, transition fetch from ground, walking fetch, fetch no fetch.

[Rick]

Do not use birds or dummies to FF or teach the hold command.

Use items you will not expect the dog to retrieve down the road.

You do not want any negative association with birds or dummies.

You only want your dog to know the hold command first when FF training. That can be done with a dowel or stick. Fact is it's best changing to a number of different items.

Once he/she has the "hold" command down ( Your dog will actually grab the item when trained properly) you can then train fetch relatively easy by laying the item down and saying hold-fetch and gradually stop saying hold in the fetch process.

It is then a simple matter to switch over to dummies/bumpers. Once you are 100% sure your dog has it down on bumpers then switch over to birds.

It is much easier than it sounds, especially when done in stages like this. I can usually have it completed in a week with a tough to train dog.

Remember..you do not want negative training with the any item you expect the dog to retrieve.

[stretch]

if you want a good insight oh how to force fetch go buy the movie called "duck dog basic's with chris akin". its a pretty good movie even though it's a little spendy but it's well worth it.

[Ufatz]

I agree its not neccessary to use a bird to teach the HOLD command and I also agree the HOLD command is a very important component. My statements regarding use of a dead bird is only appropriate when you are in the field with a young dog and drop a bird the dog refuses. You just gotta get him right back on that bird to make him clearly understand you WANT him to get it and you INSIST he get it.

I've only worked with a couple dogs who did not like feathers when first introduced to dead birds-most dogs don't pay any attention. Incidentally....I think the worst birds for losing feathers by the ton are Huns!!

When the dog has the HOLD command down you can ask him to

HOLD your hammer and walk at heel all over the yard with it. But I'm having a devil of a time teaching this newest pupil the difference between FRAMING hammer and TACK hammer. LOL.

[Bdog]

You can try all kinds of things to get your dog to pickup and return with the bird, tossing bird, running away etc. etc. Bottom line is force breaking (to me at least) is a requirement for a reliable retriever. It takes so many potential problems (hard mouth, playing with bird, dropping constantly) out of the game. I would recommend Retriever Training Basics by Farmer/Aycock. You will then understand the whole program. A good pro should be able to force break a dog in 6-8 weeks, depending on the dog. Just depends on which route fits you.

[hockeybc69]

Thanks for the tips everyone.

I had the non retrieve experience yesterday too.

My year+ old lab found the funk. She swam out to a duck and the thing did a big death flop as she approached it, and she dang near went airborne. Needless to say, she did not retrieve that duck or the other one my son had shot. She swam out to both of them and didnt even make an attempt to grab them. ugh.

She does just fine with wings on training dummies, and even frozen birds that I have. So needless to say, quite a disappointment.

I will have to try some of the above suggestions.