Halt the planting of Monsanto's Roundup Ready alfalfa & sugar beets!

[MichaelSwan]

Has anyone else seen this? I have been following this topic and find it rather disturbing. I am sure there are some in the farming community that may have opinions on this topic and would be glad to hear it.

As I understand it the story is as follows:

Monsanto is a gigantic seed supplier that has genetically modified seeds for sugar beets and alfalfa. They DO NOT have any natural stock to sell to farmers, only genetically modified seed. They submitted the stock to the FDA. If the FDA does not approve the seed, there will be no natural seed to sell to farmers as sugar beets take 2 years to get seed from. Read Sugar shortage. This to me boils down to Monsanto extorting the US. Use our genetically modified seeds (which apparently can taint the entire crop forever) or the US will have no sugar.

Here are 2 quotes relating to this. I can't post a link but if you google the title of this post, you can find lots of data... Lets hear your opinion!

‘There’s nothing they are leaving untouched: the mustard, the okra, the bringe oil, the rice, the cauliflower. Once they have established the norm: that seed can be owned as their property, royalties can be collected. We will depend on them for every seed we grow of every crop we grow. If they control seed, they control food, they know it – it’s strategic. It’s more powerful than bombs. It’s more powerful than guns. This is the best way to control the populations of the world.’ – Dr. Vandana Shiva.

Huber’s letter discussed the new pathogen in the most dire terms, saying that the findings of this team of top scientists had already discovered a link between the new pathogen and the steady rise of plant diseases in Roundup Ready corn and soybean crops and in association with high rates of infertility and spontaneous abortion rates of 45% of cattle and dairy herds consuming feed that had been treated with the number one selling weed killer Roundup.

Huber warned Secretary Vilsack that the discovery of the new pathogen was “highly sensitive information that could result in a collapse of U.S. soy and corn export markets and significant disruption of domestic food and feed supplies.”

[BobT]

Quote:

Monsanto is a gigantic seed supplier that has genetically modified seeds for sugar beets and alfalfa. They DO NOT have any natural stock to sell to farmers, only genetically modified seed. They submitted the stock to the FDA. If the FDA does not approve the seed, there will be no natural seed to sell to farmers as sugar beets take 2 years to get seed from. Read Sugar shortage. This to me boils down to Monsanto extorting the US. Use our genetically modified seeds (which apparently can taint the entire crop forever) or the US will have no sugar.

This part sounds misleading to me. Monsanto is in the business of providing genetically altered seed but Monsanto doesn't own the rights to all sugar beet seed in the country. The only thing they could do is prevent anyone from using Monsanto altered seed but they couldn't prevent the sale of other seed.

[bobbymalone]

I got lost when you start talking about "pathogens"

What pathogens?

[Nainoa]

No offense, but you guys are a little late to the party... This is just the earliest reach out of Senate Bill SB 5.10... Which was passed this last winter.

(We can spare the political rhetoric, it's a bi-partisan bill)

Basically what it says is that in order to insure food safety for our failing mass transport agricultural system, all seed stocks must follow XYZ guidelines.

Supposedly this is supposed to help stop things like E-coli in Lettuce, and Salmonella in Tomatoes and Peppers.

The idea is that for farms that GROSS over $500K they must use only certified seed stocks.

The number one lobby of this bill... Monsanto

The Company with the largest market share... Monsanto

The Company who positioned itself best to profit from this bill in the 2011 growing season... Monsanto

This is just them taking their pet bill out for a spin.

Honestly... While I signed petitions and wrote letters to our congressmen, women and senators... It's not worth talking about at this time, unless you are a farmer who Grosses over $500K a year.

(They put the $500K Exemption in there for small farms)

The reality is with out depleting water stores in the Ogallala aquifer, the Colorado river, the vulnerability of the California Delta and the droughts that have hit the mid atlantic states... COMBINED with the high price of fuel costs, we are going to find over the next 10 years that we cannot sustain mass transport agriculture on teh current scale.

And this becomes an opportunity to begin doing your part to help re-localize American food production... So that 10 years from now we're just looking putting the polishing touches on a new re-localized ag system that only uses National Mass transport production for key months and specialized crops... Instead of 10 years from now staring at "The First American Famine."

Been to the grocery store lately?

[Nainoa]

The ironic thing is that under this seed certification, under the premise of "Food Safety" is actually the number one way to ensure our crops will at some point be compromised.

These certified seeds are all hybrids... Which on the one hand forces 500K+ Farmers to buy new seed from the Big Ag Companies, since they could never develop their own. But it also makes it unlawful to grow heirloom seed.

Now at the same time... Hybrid seeds (For many, but not all crops) are so genetically identical that they when one plant has a certain weakness to a pathogen (Like Salmonella) all the other plants in that field share the same genetic weakness, so it spreads like wild fire and creates a doomed crop.

Heirlooms are genetically diverse... So while pathogens might infect 1-10 or 20% of a field, the genetic diversity keeps it from spreading to 100% of that field.

Since Heirlooms are Open Pollenators, they can be bred, and/or developed on an individual basis.

Now the assumption of "Big Ag" is that they can keep developing new strains of stronger and more resistant seed year after year, faster than Mother Nature can re-invent more pervasive pathogens.

I think as fisherman we all have a certain idea of what happens when one "Assumes" they can outsmart Mother Nature?

[MichaelSwan]

Awesome input Nainoa. I knew this was a little late but still think that the importance needed to be stated. Your cutting through the clutter of data was very helpful. Thank you.

[Dotch]

This part sounds misleading to me. Monsanto is in the business of providing genetically altered seed but Monsanto doesn't own the rights to all sugar beet seed in the country. The only thing they could do is prevent anyone from using Monsanto altered seed but they couldn't prevent the sale of other seed.

Exactly. While I am no fan of Monsanto, they are a business and in order for a publicly held company to stay in business they must make money for stockholders. We've seen nothing of the kind as far as disease resistance problems although we have seen things like weed species shifts which are to be expected when one exposes a non-selective herbicide like glyphosate to as many acres as we have since the mid-1990's. Many of us warned that this would happen and it did. We even guessed a lot of the right weeds!

Goss's wilt showed up this past season in a limited number of corn fields and everyone was quick to put the blame on something other than companies selecting germplasm, Monsanto and otherwise that had poor tolerance. Now some are trying to connect it to the Round Up Ready gene. The problem has been here long before there was Round Up Ready corn. Last season's stormy weather was particularly efficient at spreading this bacteria over long distances, detected as far east as IN in of all places, a non-Round Up Ready popcorn field. Typically this has been a western IA, NE and SD disease, making an occasional appearance in western MN.

Insect resistance is another can of worms, no pun intended. I was part of a multi-discipline panel including experts from industry, universities, EPA, etc., whose focus in a 2 day meeting in KC was to implement and encourage the adoption of refuge requirements involving the release of Bt corn to control European corn borer. No problems have been determined as far as resistance from corn borer to those high dose events. However, there are signs that abuse of the corn rootworm events may be responsible for resistance developing in a population of western corn rootworm. The scary part of this is that if true, this is a low to moderate dose event, meaning that control is not anywhere close to 100%. The developers of the traits to control this pest will have to work hard to stay ahead of it.

These traits that Monsanto, DuPont, Syngenta and others own are tools and like all tools, they are only useful when they are placed & used properly. Some of the GMO vs. non-GMO accusations thus far are far fetched and appear to have little basis in fact.

[BobT]

Quote:

The idea is that for farms that GROSS over $500K they must use only certified seed stocks.

I suppose those farmers can get around this by breaking up their operations into smaller corporations so each one grosses below the $500K limit.

[Nainoa]

I think the idea is that farms under the $500K limit are only able to compete locally. (I think there are also some interstate restrictions in the bill.)

The spirit of the LAW is to allow an exemption for very small farms who are hawking their goods at the Farmer's market, and some small CSA's... Or nut jobs like me who run around like a wild man selling heirloom tomato and pepper plants to make $2K a year in side money for boat gas and greenhouses.

And it's not "Monsanto" vs the Small Farm (Monsanto just has the biggest market share of the Big Ag firms)... It's "Big Ag" sticking the knife in the gut of the truly functional small farm once and for all.

$500K Gross is a pretty small farm!

At this point it's not about crapping in our hands and flinging it at Monsanto's stock porfolio... Or finding new tax dodges for small farms...

It's about asking ourselves about the quality with which we live our lives, who we want to do our business with, and if all this convenience in place of quality, is worth the slow step down into letting someone else (Business AND Government) how we want to live our lives.

I spend 6 months out of the year where 90% of all the produce my family eats I grow myself. (Year Round produce Greens and Herbs in one of my greenhouses) Then augment with Farmer's Markets and CSA trips...

I get all my meats in bulk from old school and or country butchers and I break it all down myself from loins, shanks, slabs, whole birds etc... For Half to a third of the price you spend at the grocery store.

Every meal I cook has that "make your knees weak, because it's cooked with love" that your grandmother's cooking does... And I work 50 hours a week... I do all this stuff in my free time... And I save between $5K and $7 a year by doing it. On 3/4 of an acre of land with MIDNIGHT black soil and a deep well.

Now granted... I have no clue what's going on on TV... I hear there's some celebrity dancing show that people like... Charlie Sheen's name keeps coming up at parties and every one keeps talking about this Jason Beeber kid.

I don't want to sound self righteous here... But I am Living one heck of a good life style... I'm saving tons of money, eating better than most 4 star restaurants and it's at the sacrifice of the time I would normally spend keeping up with all of that pop culture garbage.

At the end of the day... I am living proof that it can be done... Done well and with joy... And the more people who are willing to buy local and be "Practical" in their attempts to be self reliant... Then the more "Big Ag" like Monsanto loses it's competitive edge... And instead of "We the people just taking what they give us as our food and lifestyle options" Maybe we can make this brand of "Big Business" serve us... As the "Competitive" edge of business is supposed to do in the spirit of free market capitalism!

/Dissertation

[Powerstroke]

Ever seen the documentary Food Inc?

Very interesting discussion on Monsanto and how they have crafted the legislation and how they've won court decisions that allow them to investigate and litigate against non-modified seed users. This in short creates a system where non-modified seed users have to prove their innocence and go through costly litigation to do so. Rather than fight, they give in and Monsanto takes over a greater share of the market.

Monsanto doesn't have to own the right to all the seed in the country, they just have to own the right to the only seed that meets the standards. Then it looks like the other seed producers are the ones who are failing when in reality the large multi-national corporation has helped craft the legislation that it is benefiting from.

Not that far fetched or misleading.

[Nainoa]

And to be fair... It's not "Monsanto" it's "Big Ag" which is a conglomeration of companies just like Monsanto. And it just happens to be that Monsanto put the biggest and most public push on... Because they have the deepest pockets and the biggest market share.

And ultimately in the grand scheme of things it's about us, about our culture, about the foods we want to eat and the way we live our lives...

These guys are just exploiting and opening that we left wide open and inviting for them.

The next time you sit down to a meal and say grace, take a moment to think about how the food on your plate comes from an average of 1400 miles away. And then think about the fact that it could have come from inside of 100 or two hundred miles away (On average).

And the only difference (At least when things are in-season) is that you chose over the course of probably multiple purchases, to buy that long distant food over local.

It's not that much work to eat Minnesota (Or dakota) beef/bison... Minnesota Pork... MN or WI chicken... Salmon is the farthest away meat I get and that's from Lake Michigan.

That saturday morning (And sometimes wednesday night) farmer's market... Isn't that hard to go to. Growing high end herbs and greens and spinach in a planter on your porch is easier than falling in love.

People talk about a "Carbon Footprint" and how easy it is to reduce it with simple little things... I think there's also a "Self-Reliance Footprint"... And if we didn't have as many people eating helplessly out of a mass transport food system... The cost would go down, and new niches in the free market place would start to open back up!

[Steve Foss]

This is a good thread. I just got a little smarter.

[MichaelSwan]

I agree with doing it myself as well. I try to do as much as possible with my small garden in the cities. Between fishing and hunting, I'd say we eat 2 or 3 meals a week secured myself.

DIY! Pride as much as the higher quality (of life and food

[Nainoa]

I agree with doing it myself as well. I try to do as much as possible with my small garden in the cities. Between fishing and hunting, I'd say we eat 2 or 3 meals a week secured myself.

DIY! Pride as much as the higher quality (of life and food

I'm in the process of writing a cookbook right now that reinvents rustic food, locally sourced, but in a modern way. One of the things I've learned in my culinary journeys is that we all come back home again.

If we don't preserve... At a practical level, an appreciation of what quality food and quality cooking is... Then we condemn our children to a time in their 30's and 40's and 50's, where they "Come Back home again" and it's McDonalds, Dinty Moore Beef Stew and Pizza Hut!

The marketing messages are the "Middle" of the game... The soil is where it starts... But the end result is a shift in our values.

Now it is A LOT of work to build the knowledge to live like I do... But that's part of the reason why I'm writing the book.

We came out of WWII and the push was on to transform an agrarian society into the culture of the suburban sprawl. Anything that wasn't maximum convenient got shoved off to the side.

We handed the right to our land and the foods we eat to big corporations, so the sons of farmers could become Realtors and Investment Bankers.

I'm not saying that everyone should go get themselves a sexy plow horse and a bag of seeds... But I think it's reasonable to assume that in the blitz of technology we've had in the last 60+ years that we left some good things behind, that are worth us taking a second look under the dust to go find and reinvent a new.

[Steve Foss]

I'm going on 50, and my grandparents were as self sufficient as one can be on a SW Wisconsin dairy farm. They married in the '30s and raised five kids off that 160 acres and 22 head of Holsteins. It's where I grew up summers, learning the value of self sufficiency and hard work.

Aside from the fresh milk, they had pigs and chickens, and Grandma had a 1/2 acre garden and a berry patch and apple/plum orchard. Not to mention a whole room in the basement for canned/frozen foods, and the usual root cellar. Grandpa also shot rabbits and squirrels, and everyone harvested black walnuts and hickory nuts from the nearby woods.

Every time I plant, tend or harvest anything in the garden, or take game in the woods or fish from the lakes, I remember and honor those who went before me on the land, and who passed on that legacy. It is a good life.

For me, living in a big city would be a slow and inexorable calloused death.

If I had the $ and the current owners would sell, I'd buy that farm back in a heartbeat and open it up to my extended family, the descendants of Leonard and Loretta. Every day spent living on that farm would be a remembrance, a pleasure in hard work, a meet setting for long evenings of a summer with the whip-poor-wills, wood thrushes and bobwhite calling through the gloaming.

Yeah, that's a nice thing to think about. Powerball dreams, is what my wife and I call them. You can do a lot of woolgathering while your hands are busy tending veggies in 5 raised beds on the ledgerock in Ely.

[Nainoa]

"Civilized Man chokes his soul." -John Muir

"The old Lakota was wise. He knew that man's heart away from nature becomes hard; he knew that lack of respect for growing, living things soon led to lack of respect for humans, too." - Luther Standing Bear

"It feels good to work hard at work worth doing." -Theodore Roosevelt

[fishinchicks]

Joel Salatin of PolyFace Farm - from Food Inc - runs 1200 acres, and takes in $2.4 million in revenue. $2 million is farm related, the remaining comes from speaking fees, book sales, etc.

Seems that he is starting to change his tune a little (depending on his audience) regarding larger agriculture operations.

Thought you might find that interesting.

The locavore movement is noble, but impractical when it comes to feeding great numbers of people. We are spoiled in the United States with space around our houses to grow any size garden. We have access to protein sources that are close by, whether we choose fish, poultry, fowl, pork or beef. There are many places in the world where the land is not suitable for growing vegetables, or where there is no space to attempt a garden. The population in China (for example) is growing at a rapid rate, even though they still limit couples to one child. Our cousins have adopted 3 children from China. The first trip over was a stark contrast to the last trip. In the span of 10 years, the cities had swelled in size. Many farmers were leaving their land to move to the city to work. This puts a burden on their government to feed their people - by buying corn, soybeans, wheat, etc. that they cannot raise enough of.

It is good to take a look at things from a global view. Sometimes our views get too narrow...

[Nainoa]

This is one of those clarification points for me... While my philosophy and world view over-laps the Locovore movement... I to find it completely impractical, and far too "Head in the clouds."

What I'm talking about is the re-localization of agriculture, from a grass roots level.

60 years ago our large cities were fed in season by the farms around them. Now we've paved over those farms for suburbs and mini malls and our food comes from a great distance.

Right now the top 4 production areas we get our food from, whether it's veg, or say grain that feeds cattle in other locations.

1. Ogalala (The Great plains/grain belt) The Aquifer that feeds this is a one time gift of the glaciers, it's already running dry in some places now. It's estimated in 10 years that 50% of it will be dry. (This is where the majority of the grain we feed our livestock comes from)

2. The California Delta (Central CA) Operating in a levy system that is archaic and is one modest earthquake away from failure and flooding the area with salt water.

3. The Emerald Valley of California, which is 110% dependent on the Colorado River to keep it from reverting to a desert. And the colorado is already past maximum capacity.

At a Very Distant #4 we have the Mid Atlantic States... Which suffer periodic droughts and couldn't hold up the ag system in this country if anyone of the top 3 was to go into failure.

Now I know everyone is under the illusion that Technology is great and will fix everything... But the last time I checked, you can't plug a computer into the ground and re-fill ogalala... You can't text the California delta and tell it to drive deep pylons through it's delicate gravel embankments... And the last time I wrote and e-mail to the western rockies asking for epic snow fall every year for a decade, it didn't get back to me!

So I would put to us as a culture... That the solution isn't to go looking for more "Big Ag Solutions" (We'll just turn them into the next entity that's "Too Big To Fail" when the agricultural and water crisis washes over us in 7-10 years.)

Now I've been in marketing/work as a media agent for the last 14+ years... I can tell you for a fact that when you move the consumer buying habit towards one type of industry over another... The Industry will adjust accordingly.

But it starts with you and I not simply grabbing the easy answer down at the mega mart. It starts with putting money into the hands of local farmers when you can... So that instead of 90% of your food coming from 1400 miles away... Say you learn (Over the course of a couple of years) to have 51% of your food come from within 500 miles... And maybe that 75% local when things are "In Season" up here... And then 75% big market when it's -50 outside in the winter.

The less dependent we are on those "Systems" of Big Ag and the mother's milk of failing water sources, the longer they can last, and the more time we have to find alternative solutions.

I'm telling you right now... There's a black cloud on the horizon... And it's going to 7-10 years to get here. And if we do nothing until it gets here, when it gets here it's going to make this oil crisis thing look like 2 fat kids fighting over a candy bar.

In the end, where we choose to get our steaks and tortillas today, goes a long way towards deciding if our grandchildren end up eating soilent green.

/Wall Text

[Steve Foss]

OK, now I'm SERIOUSLY smarter than I was a few days ago. Thanks to all who are contributing to this thread.

[PurpleFloyd]

This is one of those clarification points for me... While my philosophy and world view over-laps the Locovore movement... I to find it completely impractical, and far too "Head in the clouds."

What I'm talking about is the re-localization of agriculture, from a grass roots level.

60 years ago our large cities were fed in season by the farms around them. Now we've paved over those farms for suburbs and mini malls and our food comes from a great distance.

Right now the top 4 production areas we get our food from, whether it's veg, or say grain that feeds cattle in other locations.

1. Ogalala (The Great plains/grain belt) The Aquifer that feeds this is a one time gift of the glaciers, it's already running dry in some places now. It's estimated in 10 years that 50% of it will be dry. (This is where the majority of the grain we feed our livestock comes from)

2. The California Delta (Central CA) Operating in a levy system that is archaic and is one modest earthquake away from failure and flooding the area with salt water.

3. The Emerald Valley of California, which is 110% dependent on the Colorado River to keep it from reverting to a desert. And the colorado is already past maximum capacity.

At a Very Distant #4 we have the Mid Atlantic States... Which suffer periodic droughts and couldn't hold up the ag system in this country if anyone of the top 3 was to go into failure.

Now I know everyone is under the illusion that Technology is great and will fix everything... But the last time I checked, you can't plug a computer into the ground and re-fill ogalala... You can't text the California delta and tell it to drive deep pylons through it's delicate gravel embankments... And the last time I wrote and e-mail to the western rockies asking for epic snow fall every year for a decade, it didn't get back to me!

So I would put to us as a culture... That the solution isn't to go looking for more "Big Ag Solutions" (We'll just turn them into the next entity that's "Too Big To Fail" when the agricultural and water crisis washes over us in 7-10 years.)

Now I've been in marketing/work as a media agent for the last 14+ years... I can tell you for a fact that when you move the consumer buying habit towards one type of industry over another... The Industry will adjust accordingly.

But it starts with you and I not simply grabbing the easy answer down at the mega mart. It starts with putting money into the hands of local farmers when you can... So that instead of 90% of your food coming from 1400 miles away... Say you learn (Over the course of a couple of years) to have 51% of your food come from within 500 miles... And maybe that 75% local when things are "In Season" up here... And then 75% big market when it's -50 outside in the winter.

The less dependent we are on those "Systems" of Big Ag and the mother's milk of failing water sources, the longer they can last, and the more time we have to find alternative solutions.

I'm telling you right now... There's a black cloud on the horizon... And it's going to 7-10 years to get here. And if we do nothing until it gets here, when it gets here it's going to make this oil crisis thing look like 2 fat kids fighting over a candy bar.

In the end, where we choose to get our steaks and tortillas today, goes a long way towards deciding if our grandchildren end up eating soilent green.

/Wall Text

I suppose we could always tile some more of our marshes and wetlands to get a few more acres of tillable soil and send the excess moisture to the Gulf of Mexico.

[Dotch]

Back to the original title of the thread. Just arrived today as hard copy in my mailbox so included a link to a timely discussion examining the benefits, costs, and potential for genetic cross contamination from genetically modified alfalfa. Some perspectives on transgenes from plant breeders, agronomists, and industry. Plus, pretty pictures. I've met Dan Undersander and Neal Martin, both top shelf guys. Great resource people for forage production practices. More food for thought.

https://www.agronomy.org/files/publications/csa-news/gm-alfalfa.pdf

[fishinchicks]

I suppose we could always tile some more of our marshes and wetlands to get a few more acres of tillable soil and send the excess moisture to the Gulf of Mexico.

It is illegal to tile wetlands if you are a farmer. However, the rules are different for developers who just have to create a new wetland somewhere else if they build over one.

[Nainoa]

Seems like a lot of the best soil has been paved over and turned into suburbs.

35 years ago, the neighborhood I live in was a small street in the country with a bunch of old houses on it. Now it's a small island of neighborhood surrounded by developments, with mansions and WalMart on the horizon.

There are collapsing Neutron Stars in deep space that aren't as black as my soil.

[Steve Foss]

There are collapsing Neutron Stars in deep space that aren't as black as my soil.

That sounds like a great lyric from Dark Side of the Moon. Yeah, I'm a big Pink Floyd fan.

[upnorthvoice]

Steve,

Many of us have that same powerball dream. With land going for $4,000/acre the 160 acres in Mower county where my grandparents farmed and my great grandparents were the original pioneers, it is only the powerball that could make my dream of owning that land become reality.

The present owner is my dads cousin and we were all invited for a reminiscent tour of the farm house at the last family reunion I attended. That was a great time.

Living in northern Itasca county is a good second place.

Life has been good to me so far...

...