>8'' sunfish?

[mainbutter]

I'm starting to think that 8'' sunfish must be a myth. I've been all over the DNR lake finder for the better part of an hour now, and not a single survey has recorded a sunfish in the "9-11" section for the length reporting section.

Those pictures of 9 or 10''ers I see on here.. LIES!

Seriously though, how rare are these things if even the DNR hasn't reported a single one in the dozens of lakes I've looked at?

[efishsport]

You aren't looking on the right lakes. There are several on the DNR survey results that show fish 9-11 inches.

[goblueM]

for whatever reason, they are just missing those fish. gotta be careful with those lake surveys, they are a snapshot of a lake with certain sampling gear at a certain time in a certain place

they often only give you a somewhat limited idea of the fish community in those lakes. For example, bass are notoriously "net shy", catfish are hard to catch with electrofishing gear, as are muskies

[Esox_Magnum]

I know down here in lowly Iowa we dont keep a gill under 8.5" normaly but getting true 10"+ are a little tougher

[Scott M]

Try looking at special regulation lakes. Like gobluem mentioned, the best analogy for a survey is a snapshot in time. I like to think of fish populations as continuously fluctuating graphs that rise and fall over time, sometimes in patterns, especially with a long enough data set. One species goes up, another down...sometimes its that simple but many times there are several variables at play.

The other thing gobluem alluded to was timing and gear selectivity. Most of the special regulation panfish (crappie, bluegill) lakes are sampled regularly after ice out, when those fish are shallow and vulnerable to trap netting. Ice out trap netting, for example, isn't loaded up to Lakefinder for the public. It's often species specific and considered "special sampling," not the apples to apples comparison sampling of "population assessments" or "resurveys" that are loaded up on Lakefinder. In certain lake types, crappies are better sampled in gill nets, and the selectivity of the mesh sizes dictates how large you can catch them. Trap nets work the same way to a certain extent, some fish just don't use shallow water habitat in the summer when they become that large. Think of finding those big gills and crappies on deep weed edges or suspended over deeper water...those are fish that are very tough to sample with the experimental test netting gears found in a Minnesota DNR lake survey.

Here's a good example from a snippet of a column from Glen Schmitt of the St. Cloud Times about the importance and use of special sampling:

Quote:

Even along the Canadian border where ice is still quite evident, spring fisheries tasks are in full swing, according to Tom Heinrich, DNR large lake specialist in Baudette.

The first job his staff tackles each spring is an annual northern pike assessment in the tributaries at Lake of the Woods. This fishery adopted an experimental pike regulation in 1995 and Heinrich says these annual spring assessments have proven the regulation has worked to improve the overall size structure of northern pike in Lake of the Woods.

The experimental regulation is now permanent and the goal to maintain a quality size of pike is being met. Without the spring assessment work, there would be no way to tell how effective the regulation is.

“It’s working and we know it’s working because we see the size of the fish we’re sampling every spring,” Heinrich said. “You can see it in this spring spawning run and without this assessment we wouldn’t have as good of a grasp on the pike population.”

Once walleyes start spawning in the Rainy River, Heinrich and his staff will begin electro fishing it in order to keep a handle on the size structure of walleyes and to determine if spring fishing opportunities (since it’s border water, the walleye season is open through mid-April) on the Rainy has an impact on walleye numbers.

They’ll work to collect samples from about 500 female walleyes or until fish numbers begin to drop as the spawning run wraps up. Since these spawning fish are driven by water temperature, the window to complete this job can be very short.

“It’s important to monitor it to see if there is an impact on the fishery by allowing fishing on the river in the early spring,” Heinrich said. “We’ve learned that it has more of an impact on males than females, obviously because they’re targeted and kept.”

He also pointed out that if that trend would change, the Rainy could be shut down in April. At this point, he doesn’t see that happening, but he will continue to monitor it each spring to make sure nothing out of the ordinary takes place with the walleye population.

Something that’s completely unique to Heinrich’s work area is the lake sturgeon sampling that takes place during the spring in Four Mile Bay on Lake of the Woods and at the ClementsonAccessOnRainyRiver Rapids area of the Rainy River.

Large mesh gillnets are used to capture sturgeon in the spring for sampling. The spring is the best time of the year to conduct such a survey because the fish are concentrated and the cold water reduces the possibility of mortality.

The sturgeon fishing in this system is regarded as some of the best in the world. By learning more each spring about size structure and spawning habits as well as tagging the fish, it should remain that way.

“There just aren’t many sturgeon populations like this to work with and we’re still learning basic biology about these fish,” Heinrich said. “The work we do in the spring is the best way to maintain the quality sturgeon fishing we have.”

“The same is true for the surveys and sampling that’s conducted throughout the state on all fish species,” he added. “This time of the year we need to be dipping our hands in cold water a lot.”

Don't fret about not finding large fish in standard lake surveys. When using Lakefinder to pour over lake surveys to find new lakes or lakes with potential, it's your strainer or comb. If you can find a few big fish, there may be more there in some cases. You have to train your eye to look at the physical components of the lake (water clarity, maximum depth, littoral area) and the biological components of the lake (length frequency table, catch per unit effort table) to get the whole picture.

[gurkster]

Most Metro area lakes have sunfish over 8" in them. You may need to fish deeper, or change up your bait to get them. I do realize there are a ton under 8", but 8"+ is not to hard to find.

[OnAFly]

Unfortunately, you have to sort through 1000 5" to find a couple 8".

[whitebassman]

he's not phishing for honey holes is he?

[OnAFly]

If he is, my hat's off to him. Good tactic.

[tearin' lips]

Having some limited experience with sampling, I concur that the sampling is just a snapshot of the lake. Panfish are cyclic, more so crappies than sunfish, but sunfish are cyclic too. Just because a certain sampling didn't catch big 'gills doesn't mean they are not there.

Some lakes take sorting to get them, but I mostly try to find a different area. From my experience bigger 'gills will use different areas.

When I use lake finder on the DNR HSOforum, I look for find lakes with high numbers of 6-8" fish and an average above 6". This combined with utilizing different areas and techniques have put me on some good Bull 'gill bites.

My fisheries training and education has also taught me the value of releasing the big dogs. Big sunfish are essential in preserving the sunfish. Big sunfish are guardians of the nest and genetic machines. Keeping a few for the pan is okay, I personally keep 6.5-8" varieties for the pan and release the rest, especially the 10+.

[mainbutter]

he's not phishing for honey holes is he?

lol no, when I ask for fishing locations I do so directly!

Mostly I was just quite surprised at how few of these surveys record larger sunfish, particularly because of the sheer number of fish that are surveyed.

Looking at surveys, you get much better size structure the further away from the cities that you get, particularly out west towards fargo and north of leech lake.

When I see a survey that says "1000 bluegill sampled" and about 2/3 fall in the 0-5'' section and 1/3 fall in the 6-8'' section, with 0 in the 9-11'' section, are they just sampling an area where the big 'gills don't hang out?

P.S. this is really just my curiosity at work here after spending time on fish finder. I don't fish for food, but am just trying to learn more about these midwest lakes that I'm still figuring out.

[whitebassman]

like others said, those are "sample sizes" and by no means are a true representation of a body of waters population. like any lake, there is a bell curve of ages present. even in smaller lakes there will be larger fish. its in the larger lakes with good habitat and forage base, as well as balance of reproduction/predation (including fishing harvest) that you'll find even larger (>8") and more numbers present.

Understandably bluegills are harder to find in big sizes in metro area. But I have caught nice sized pannies and LM bass in ponds and ditches in the area.

The data won't tell you directly that there are big fish in the lake. You'll just have to fish it and listen for word of mouth, to find if there are big bluegills in it.

Also, my guess is that if one caught a nice bluegill, odds are greater you'll harvest them, and odds are there are more where you caught them, so greater numbers are caught. Predator fish such as walleye, fishermen tend to keep eaters and are willing to throw bigger more reproductive females back. Of course, not all throw big walleyes back, but there tends to be more of a sportsman mentality with our precious walleyes then there are with crappies and bluegills. I hate seeing how slaughtered our lakes get in the spring, buckets of fish going home all day long.

[goblueM]

Here's some light reading for you, mainbutter

http://www.cfr.msstate.edu/students/Wfpages/wfd/wf4313/bluegillpopulation.pdf

of note is Table 1 - particularly the RSD-P. That stands for Relative Stock Density of Preferred size bluegills (>200 mm, or about 8 inches)

RSD-P is (the number of bluegills greater than 8 inches divided by the number of bluegills larger than "stock" size, 3 inches) * 100

For more than the 1,000 lakes they sampled in Minnesota, the median RSD-P is 4. That means only 4% of all bluegills larger than 3 inches are also larger than 8 inches

There really aren't that many bluegills larger than 8 inches to begin with, and even then keep in mind that an 8.9 inch bluegill still wouldn't show up in the lakefinder results in the 9" category.

Part of it is just the numbers game, there aren't many large 'gills out there, and as you mentioned, they might be in different habitats than the smaller ones and not easily sampled by the DNR's gear

[TravP]

I know down here in lowly Iowa we dont keep a gill under 8.5" normaly but getting true 10"+ are a little tougher

You should be letting the 9"+ breeders go...

[TravP]

My fisheries training and education has also taught me the value of releasing the big dogs. Big sunfish are essential in preserving the sunfish. Big sunfish are guardians of the nest and genetic machines. Keeping a few for the pan is okay, I personally keep 6.5-8" varieties for the pan and release the rest, especially the 10+.

I wish more people could figure this out.

[OnAFly]

+1

[popriveter]

It is refreshing to see anglers who advocate and practice the harvest of moderate sized panfish and release of large ones. I keep the 6-8 inchers and release the big ones as well. I wish the bag limit would include a "one sunfish over 9 inches" or " 2 sunfish over 8 inches" limit.

We could still keep that wall mount or state record, but we'd train fishermen to view a 7 incher as a food fish and a 9 incher as a valuable lake resident.

[Zelmsdawg]

Well, theres at least one out there.

Took this from leech lake as I didn't want to highlight a small lake

Species Number of fish caught in each category (inches)

0-5 6-8 9-11 12-14 15-19 20-24 25-29 30+ Total

bluegill

19 20 1 0 0 0 0 0 40

But as you'll find, lakes that have the fish in the 9"+ usually have very low fish/net ratios to go with them.

Keep looking and don't lose faith, you'll find them

Zelmsdawg

[popriveter]

The lake where I currently catch my largest sunfish has a regular program for fish removal. They trap and remove thousands of lbs of sunfish each year. It has changed the lake from a dink factory into a nice, productive sunfish lake.

[OnAFly]

popriveter - I whole heatedly agree with the selective harvest stand point. I think the DNR could do more to encourage these ideas. Not necessarily with regulation, though I'm all for it, but with advertising the idea more. If you can plant that seed in a young angler, you have a much better chance of getting them to have that type of mentality than if they grow up only keeping 8"+ sunnies.

Just a thought.

[mr_jman]

If your spending time looking at lake surveys also take a look at the bass counts! Compare the bass populations, and size to the bluegills size and numbers. If you have a lower bluegill count in a good bass lake, you have a good chance at catching some gills over 8". I was told this by someone who spends a lot of time looking for BULL gills. A good bass population helps control the bluegill population resulting in fewer numbers, but better sizes!

As mentioned also look for lakes with special regs on the bluegills... Those regs are there for a reason! (Because they gills are very nice!)

[TravP]

If your spending time looking at lake surveys also take a look at the bass counts! Compare the bass populations, and size to the bluegills size and numbers. If you have a lower bluegill count in a good bass lake, you have a good chance at catching some gills over 8". I was told this by someone who spends a lot of time looking for BULL gills. A good bass population helps control the bluegill population resulting in fewer numbers, but better sizes!

As mentioned also look for lakes with special regs on the bluegills... Those regs are there for a reason! (Because they gills are very nice!)

Shhhh!

[Silkworm]

he's not phishing for honey holes is he?

I'll give him my honey hole. Biggest Crappies and Sunfish I have ever found, even bigger than Upper Red Lake. Been fishing there for years and only ever ran into one other fisherman, had the whole lake to myself everyday this winter just like every year. Bass Lake on the West side of Hwy. 89, 1 mile South of the junction with Hwy 1, in Northern Minnesota. Off of Hwy. 89, turn west onto the Shell Lake Road and travel 1 mile, Bass Lake is on your left. Best fishing ever.

[itchmesir]

^^^ Isn't there like a small campground on that lake too? I think someone recommended that area to me when i was heading north last summer

[DTro]

We sat and caught 8"ers all day long last weekend on a very popular South Metro lake. Only a couple topped 8" though.

I have a hard time cleaning anything under 7.5" so if I ever do keep any it's in that 7.5-9" range.

I've fished the area Esox_Magnum speaks of and in his defense he wouldn't be able to keep anything if he released all the 9"ers.