Gill net found on Winnie with rotten fish!

[jlm]

This is really funny that this should come up. I know a NA who was telling me a story which happened about two to three weeks ago on Winni! He said he put out his nets in the shallows and while the nets were set, a guy in a boat came along and drove right through the nets despite them being well marked (he was going too fast). The guy got so tangled up that he had to stop. They (NA's) went up to this guy and hauled him into town where he had to buy them new nets because theirs were completely ruined. They could not recover the nets because by the time they got back, it was dark and they were unable to find them. I suspect that people run over nets all the time and drag them around the lake. Sure there are those out there that abuse the system but I think it is wise to find out the real story before everyone goes out and provides their two cents. For those of you who want ot throw the race thing out there, all I can say is that if they have it so easy, why don't you trade places with them. Grow up a little!

[Chad Holst]

DavidH, As far the first part of your response..well said! Why is this simple idea so hard for people to understand?
I'm not anti Native, as i think must of us are not.. I'm Against all this confusing double rule mumbo jumbo. It's funny to think we have to check our family tree to see what set of laws to follow, this, in a nation of freedom and democracy. Crazy!!

As far as your voting rights.. How can they tax you if you are not able to vote? Is this not taxation without representation? I think the courts would have a fun time sorting this out....lol.... Maybe thats why they never want to air it on the 6 o'clock news!

I'll make a deal with yah dave.. I buy the beer you buy the bait and lets go find a fishing hole to discuss it!!

oh YAH.. i forgot.. I truelly would give up my boat, motor, and cunfy couch for a chance to go back..problem is i would have to find a way to stop my great, great grandparent from coming here and stealing it from me!!

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I'd rather be fishing and think about church, than be at church and thinking about fishing!

[IFallsRon]

jlm is right. It's easly to separate the men from the boys when a topic like this hits.

[Rick]

I want to commend DavidH and Big G's post was a pretty good one too.

Race isn't the issue, no matter how much some feel the need to bring it in.

The issue is netting, the issue is treaty rights, the issue is the law, the issue is perceived unfairness. If you don't like it, work at changing it. It's a political animal and can be worked at changing without bringing race into it.

The minute you bring race into it, you've brought a whole group of people into it, many or most of whom may not be involved or even agree with the actions we find reprehensible. That's not fair to the race you singled out and it definitely shows underling racism as well as your own ignorance.

When you do that you brand the whole group. When you do that, I don't care what you say, YOU ARE A RACIST!

Please click the Register link, read it and stay within those policies. I don't care what race you are. We are human beings and we are all brothers. I expect everyone to live up to their agreements here.

It would be nice to have an adult discussion on this issue without the attacks, racism, and race baiting going on. If you do any of the above, don't whine about your post being deleted.

I also want to thank and commend most of you who are posting here for staying within Forum guidelines as well as being very intelligent with your posts and observations without resorting to racism.

Thanks, it's because of you and our Pro Staff monitoring it, that this topic remains unlocked!!!

[walleyehawk]

Dave

I am not sure all the ins and outs of the voting/"non-resident" thing. But I have seen on the news a few cases where Senator Norm Coleman, our Senator in Washington, has stepped in and helped to guide someone through the bureaucracy to get a person citizenship.

Once he got it so an Asian kid could stick around a little longer so he could finish his high school education while they were deporting his family. He only had a few weeks left to get his diploma. I have seen where he has worked to reunite a family with part of the brothers and sisters still in Africa.

You should give him or Senator Dayton a call.

I can understand your plight a little. My grandmother was born in Canada and has lived in the US most of her life, yet she cannot vote. Apparently you need to have a birth certificate, and they cannot find hers. So she has never voted, but has lived her over 70 years.

[upnorth]

Perhaps posting a name along with the deed would be a good idea. If someone is exposed to embarrassment for their misdeeds perhaps they will think twice about blowing off their responsiblities.

It don't matter what your background is or where you came from you should be held accountable for your actions.

This falls into the same catagory as the poachers up in Ifalls, everyone needs to be accountable for their misdeeds no matter what their heritage!!!! If it is wrong it is wrong.

[Chad Holst]

Hey that reminds me has any one heard what they are doing with the poachers from up north? The ones that had several hundred fish in the trunk and at there home.. Was a big topic for a while and now no one has said a thing about it..

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I'd rather be fishing and think about church, than be at church and thinking about fishing!

[windsurferlawman]

Ok,

I'm a little groggy because I bave been sitting in the sun on Mille Lacs all day, but I'll try another post without making myself look like an *****-

Dave H.- I never said you were doing anything, and if I "attacked" you for that I apologize, but if you read my post again I said "I am not saying you are doing anything." Or something a long those lines.

This net was placed exactly where I found it and it was clearly visable in the same location for 2-3 weeks before curiosity got the best of me. There is no way it blew away and I'll tell you why.

When I finally went over to see what the bouy was my friend pulled it up and when we saw it was a gill net full of rotten fish he dropped the bouy anchor, but it got tangled up in the line. It sank the bouy like a rock! I had to pull it back up so the bouy was at the surface again.

As far as me allowing this to happen- You show me one politician who did what they said they were going to after they were elected!

If you want to think I am a racist that is fine, I know better than that though. I have ZERO problems with any tribel members except for when it comes to game and fish issues.

Except for a little time in Alaska and Iowa for college, I have lived my entire 30 years very close to an indian reservation. In those 30 years I have come to see this sort of gross wasting on many, many occasions, and no one seems willing to do anything about it.

I think that it is time we start doinf something about it and eventually people will get the idea that we are sick of this b/s-

michael

[huskiesplayer15]

My granpa told me today that everyone only finds out about three percent of a group of people and what they do, which I thought is true, you either find out three percent good or three percent bad? Food for thought
best Fishes
Chris

[Guest]

I remember hearing a story from Wisconsin where the fisher men took to their boats, Flags flying and Guns blearing and took back control of their waters and stopped the spearing and netting.

USA

[rockhardinmn]

I would like to point out a few things here but dont want them to be taken offensive by any race . So Dave H please bare with me as i am not a great speaker and some could be easily taken wrongly.Also as a point of interest 1 of my best freind is NA.

Dave H ,,, I do think that If we all looked into the history of the NA's we would find some interesting facts of those times .

One of these Facts is that the different tribes would make war with themselves for all sorts of reasons...The stronger tribe took whatever they wanted in their conquest. This would be anything from the women to the horses to the land the huinted or fished. This is not much different when the white man came to this land is it?

Gentlemen ,,, My feelings are theses:
we all should have the same rights as each other. Times have changed greatly since those treatys were made. There is a wide crosssection of people everywhere in the world in todays world. there is all sorts of work out there to get into.Granted some of those jobs wont pay enough ends meet and some sort of subsistance is needed. There is many peoplr of all races in this situation who need to hunt or fish for their family to eat.If a person in a situarion like this fills a freezer thats 17cubic feet in size full of meat or fish (store bought ot hunted or fished) it would last close to a year foe a family of 5( i have done this with beef, pork , fish, chickin). with out going on here 1/2 asleep i think you can get what i am trying to say here .

Indians i do beleive at one time only took what thay needed and were stewards of the land............ It is stories like this one and others that say they are not. the legal arguement of tradition is **** to me also. the tradition was with birch bark canoes not the rigs we see today is it? Could the white man today say that it was a tradition to shoot at a group of NA's because over a set Number of them off Reservation when my great great great grandfther was alive they were classified as a war party? it dont matter that there is new laws and life settings in todays world.... Now How serious would this be taken?

[Chad Holst]

David H, 1st, I would like to say I stand by what I posted earlier. With that said, I am sorry that you took this to be an attack on you. I was simply stating that the system in general is F.U.B.A.R.. I was not saying and consiquently do not think that you are the problem. I think that some of the posts are not directed at you but at the problem..and likwise some are posted directly at you and not the problem..the latter being from small minded people with nothing better to do than make waves.
The problem is netting! Not leaving or loosing nets but netting!! I know alot of people are looking at this as a few people messing it up for the whole. I don't believe this is the case. There are always going to be a few bad apples in a bunch (And i know you are not one of them)but, these are problems coming up because...

A) netting should not be ok for some and not for others unless THEY( in this case the Natives) have a clear and valid right.

B)There are never mistakes being made ie loosing, forgetting nets even if not the "natives fault".

lets look at "A)" first...
We all know that the Natives got screwed out of alot of there way of life. But, many of us are here because we (our natives) got screwed also. Does this constitute a "right" to do things that others, living in the same country, can not do? I dont believe so. (and yes dave i know you dont think so either)

OK "B)"....If you are going to allow one group of people (let's say group "a") living in the same area's as other groups (let's say b,c,and d) to have a differant set of rules.. then you have to realize that the first time group "a" breaks even the smallest rule set for them that you will have a huge outcry from b,c, and d. It will never work.. why? because even if a net is lost from a storm.. the groups that can't use them will, well...say what you are hearing in this forum!

So how do you stop it?
1) Give all groups the same rules and the groups are no longer the problem, the problem is the problem...
2)or let all groups do what ever they want, rule them selves, face no consiquences from the other groups with differant laws...AND START A NEW CIVIL WAR..because trust me it would happen!
Why is it so, hard for us to realize you can not have 2,3,4,..groups with differant sets of rules for each and then expect them to get along and talk civil, act civil, be civil.
I'll be civil when we are all playing by the same rule book. Untill then i will fight to get us all on the same book. If not dont complain to me when people aren't being "fair" or nice.

Last I think alot of people on this sight, since we are sports minded and connected to the outdoors wish we could live closer to the "steryotypical native life" but we relise we can't. And then when we see others can it becomes a very soar spot. I would love to live the life of a "Native" 400 years ago. But guess what I cant.. And as childish as it may sound why should others...I WAS BORN ON THE SAME.....you understand...

Thanks for you time david and i appreciate your opinion.

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I'd rather be fishing and think about church, than be at church and thinking about fishing!

[tadpole]

I have been following this post, wow, It seems every now and then we forget the wasted fish! You could go on & on but the fact is the same, some individual killed a bunch of fish and wasted them. I believe in God & Karma and who ever did this will pay one way or another.

We did not inherit the earth! We are only borrowing it from our children! Old native indian saying!

Tad

[jlm]

I don't know guys, this can go one of two ways. I find it odd that a man would leave his nets out for weeks with a form of identification on them that will get him busted. So, either something happened that prevented him from getting his net or he has no regard for the damage that he is creating. Either way, he is innocent until proven guilty. Lets hear the story and get the fact before we offend a whole race of people. Just my 2 cents!

[Long Gray Line]

If the Tribal Council that handled the issue with the poacher published their actions/results to show the world that the issue is being treated seriously/ethically, it might go along way to diffuse the mistrust. Knowing that the verdict/punishment is going to be published might also pressure the court to go after those found guilty. Making the proceedings more transparent would have to build trust. They might be getting published now and I don't see it. Anybody more knowledgable about this?

[Big Ick]

I know everyone has heard this story…

A couple of guys go to Red Lake for the winter crappie bite, end up in the wrong area, and wind up losing all of their gear...including their vehicle. The first time I heard this, I was a student at UND. I couldn't understand this, how could they lose all of their stuff just for fishing a lake in Minnesota. They weren't breaking any of the fishing laws. Could that happen, could the law and rules of the Red Lake tribe supercede those of the State government? I knew that many of tribes had lobbied for spearing and netting rights, but I was clueless about Tribal Nations, or any other group for that matter, having a separate government that isn't subject to state law. I couldn’t fathom what my college buddies from “up north” were telling me. I asked them, “You mean to tell me that there wasn’t a thing the state government could do? The state government has no jurisdiction on Lower Red Lake? So, then it’s kinda like a separate, sovereign nation within the U.S.? Do this separate nation still benefit from government programs, military protection, and all the other things that being a US citizen has to offer?” The answer they gave me was a resounding “Yes”.

I realize that college age kids don’t have all the answers, so I’m curious if anyone knows if something like this could really happen. And if it could, I find it scary that my government would allow something like this to happen to me. Perhaps, this sort of thing happens all the time. Maybe there are all kinds of local government (city) laws that can’t be overridden by the state. I know for a fact that there are local laws and ordinances, but I’d hope that these would be superceded by any state government…especially for something as big as losing one’s vehicle. If this weren’t true, then what would stop Big Lake from creating some bogus law and taking the vehicles of the people breaking this law in their town? (I grew up in Becker J) It could get to the point where a guy couldn’t drive anywhere in the state for fear of being subject to the locals. Isn’t that why we have the different levels of government?

To get back to what this thread is about…netting. Do we, with all our technology and knowledge need to net? Are we that reliant upon Mother Nature that we depend solely on her to provide us with a tasty meal of walleye? We farm cattle for the mass production of beef, why not do the same with fish? This is, of course, assuming that the only purpose of netting is to harvest lots of fish for the purpose of selling them. An interesting note, vegans believe that we, as a society, are advanced to the point that we should not depend on any animal product for our needs of survival. Personally, I agree with them, but I also think my life is a whole lot better when I have a bloody 20 oz. Steak, or a juicy walleye fillet, in my belly! But they do have a point; do we really need to rape our natural resources in order to fill our basic needs? I don’t know. All that I really know is that netting is a problem that exists on many different levels; it just depends on whom you talk to. I only care about the levels that affect me, and that is netting here in Minnesota. I don’t, and nor will I ever, fish the lakes that are legally netted for walleye. I don’t care who is doing the netting. That takes some pretty nice lakes away from me, but there are plenty more left.

So what is the solution? The only course of action, as I see it, is government. This is the only way something can work, and work effectively. Standing around whining about it won’t work. (I’m guilty as the rest for doing this.) Trying to take things into your own hands (running over nets, cutting up nets, fights, etc.) won’t work either. A group large enough, united in a common cause, needs to make this an issue with the state. That’s how this country is supposed to work, right? You don’t like the way the world around you is run; you change it through a vote. You change it through your government. You make enough noise, you make your problem other peoples problem, and maybe then things will change. We’re all Minnesotan’s right? We all want what’s best for our lakes, and it’s just unfortunate that smaller voice happens to be the loudest on the issues of netting. Wouldn’t it be nice if all Minnesota waters were a level playing field for everyone?

I’ve been reading this site for a couple of years now, but have only recently felt compelled to post. This has been my longest by far…but it sure beats work! There’s also another solution, move. Move to another state, where the laws are different. Move to another state where the people are fewer and sharing the natural resources is easier. I’ve never been fly fishing, but those guys sound and look peaceful. I can hear Montana calling, or perhaps Alaska. I hear they PAY you to live there.

[Willy]

The bottom line is netting needs to be stopped. I don't care what people say about needing to feed their family or tradition. The casinos pay these people that live on the reservation. You can't tell me that they are that poor that they still need to net to feed their family and stay alive. If netting was done the "old indian style" then they would be out there in canoes, using smaller nets, and only taking what they are going to eat. So if you want to talk it being a part of native american heritage, then KEEP that heritage and use every part of the animal and don't WASTE anything. I doubt part of this tradition/heritage includes comercial fishing.

[This message has been edited by Willy (edited 06-18-2004).]

[Guest]

Willy,
So if you translate your thinking into aspects of YOUR life, than hunting and fishing should be banned because you do not need to do these things to survive.

Netting is a way of life to some people just as hunting, fishing, spearing, playing musical instruments, tiddly-winks or whatever are to others.

There is a lot to be said about maintaining traditions of the past and who are we to say they are wrong? Should we ban eating Lutefisk because some of us, I included, find it disgusting?

Now in this case, the person who did this acted in an irresponsible manner and has brought shame not only on the tradition of what he was doing but to his people as well.

Don't let the acts of a few dictate your entire prespective of a tradtion or a people.

[DavidH]

Just to throw something into the mix here...

As I had stated previously, I am Native American and I am against netting. It appears like I am not alone on the issue of netting.

Now, that said, what about commercial fishing? When it comes right down to it, what is the difference between commercial fisherman, whom use nets as well, and Native Americans who net? My first thoughts are that commercial fisherman pay for a commercial license. I dont believe Natives pay for a commercial license if netting on their waters. Commercial fishermen sell their catch on the public market and to processing plants. I could be wrong but I dont think Native people are allowed to sell their catch on the public market or to processing plants.

Your thoughts?

Please dont try to use the argument that commercial fishermen dont waste parts of their catch. I have seen their waste. It's rather disgusting to say the least.

[Guest]

David,
I object to commercial fishing as much, if not more than native netting.

Big Ick brought up a good question......

Why isn't there private ponds for raising walleyes? Is it too expensive? They have catfish ponds.........why not walleye ponds???

[jlm]

Willy-
I think you might have some bad information. Not all tribes get money from casinos. Sure, there are a few that do and one in particular has made every band member rich beyond imagination but as a whole, this is not the case. Most reservations are very, very poor. Unfortunately, this has lead to generations of poverty, mental illness, and addiction problems. It is very difficult to turn around something that has been a way of life for some people without adequate resources. An axample of what I mean is this: If you grow up in a fishing family and it becomes a way of life, odds are you will be a fisherman and so will your kids. We have learned to be that way from our parents and thier parents. Well then you can say, why don't they just move. Well they could but as is evident by some on this board, they really don't get a fair shake in our society because of the color of thier skin. It would be like one of us moving to a muslim country....how comfortable would you feel their. Its all about empathy. Walk in their shoes a little before passing judgement! Before you jump on me for this post, I will say this. It should not matter who you are, if you do something wrong, you have to be punished. If this guy was wrong with this netting thing, he should be punished!

[Willy]

Don't get me wrong about commercial fishing. I know there is waste there and I hate commercial fishing. Either way, Native netting or commercial fishing, I am against it on Minnesota's lakes and rivers.

Tom - I see your point and I agree that some may do it for fun, just as we all hunt and fish. However, most anglers release at least part of what they catch. With netting you are taking a whole lot of fish out of the system and not releasing any. And I know that this was probably just a few bad apples, but the way it sounds this happens quite frequently and I think something needs to be done to stop the netting or at least control it a little bit better.

And I know it is hard to tell them to just quit netting because it is to some of them, a way of life. But, there needs to be some control on the situation. If not, this kind of thing will keep on happening and adding fuel to everyone's fire. If people want to keep the right to net, do it responsibly and maybe everyone wouldn't look down upon it as much.

[walleyehawk]

Guys,

Lets stick to this one abandoned netting incident. I have seen too many times when we let the thread go to discussing Native American rights, netting, Mille Lacs, etc. and the thread goes up in flames, and the thread disappears.

We do not want this thread to be closed and disappear, right?

Focus on the one incident and what can be done to prevent it from happening. As Rick said, if you don't like netting, discuss it with the politicans as they are the only ones that can do anything.

To the student about items being taken, there was an incident a few years ago on Red Lake where someone flew into the Reservation sovereign portion of the lake. The plane was confiscated with their equipment. After about a month, they got the plane back.

The point here is education. Now the DNR mentions in the regs this is a seperate, sovereign nation and to respect their space. But before flying, one should research. And pay attention to signs if you drive.

[walleyehawk]

There is some rough fish that are netted on the rivers in the Twin Cities area. Carp and other rough fish.

Can you say fillet-o-fish.

And thank you for netting these so I don't have to catch them.

[united jigsticker]

Big Drift:

Great post!

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Good fishing,
UJ
[email protected]