Gill net found on Winnie with rotten fish!

[Chad Holst]

I'm confused... One of the earlier posts stated something to the fact.."We have been doing this for many years to feed our tribe". This is true but...Hmmmm? So, what you are trying to imply is that if a culture does something for many years then it should be o.k.? Well heck, I know us "anglo's" used to settle our differances with an "in the street at dawn gun fight" and as long as both men where armed it was legal. So.... guess we should be able to kill? after all it was "our" way of life! um, NO!
Next.."feeding our tribe"? I wasn't aware that there where no supermarkets, or resteraunts on the res..? If not.. call up "your" casino bosses and ask them to build and fill one..trust me they have the money.

I relise this is very argumentitive, but come on.. NO ONE is "native" or "unnative" anymore. I was born in this state next to the same river as YOU. You want nobody to say anything about race yet you say you should be able to net ..why?...because of your race. ???
You can not have it both ways. I don't give a **** about your skin color, and hopefully you dont give a **** about mine.. So why should you be able to do these things if "the res. say's it's OK" yet I can not...? See "we" (you and I) don't net ..not because some lawman said we can or can't but because we fish for the sport, and comradery (spelling?) it brings...

Net fishing is not a sport it's a way to feed people. This is not how you or I or any INDIAN feeds his family. And, if it is it is not the normal way of life..

People used to hunt for the family dinner.. If I went out every night to "hunt the family dinner" i would be a poacher.. I as well I should be because our culture has changed.. and we could not have our way of life with a system like that.

Now, I know you will say yes but we didn't choose this"anglo" way of life.. you forced it on us. Well, guess what I didn't choose this way of life either I was born into it just like you, YOU will never change that and neither will I. If I don't like it I have the choice to move, and likewise you also have the choice. I will not expect you to like this, rightfully so, because just like me WE cant change the past. However, I, and anyone with true resolve can change the future and that means, like it or not, Eqaullity for all. I cant net? then you cant net! I cant spear? then you cant spear..etc.

Now if you dont agree with that then don't complain to us when someone doesnt treat you like "one of the guys" because you didnt want the same rule book.

Its silly that we have to watch what we say on a forum like this because we may not treat every one with the "same" respect that they deserve, but they do not have to follow the same laws that we "anglo's" deserve.

My grandpa use to say " it's unwise to tell someone to stop smoking while you have a cigerette hanging from your mouth"..
Sounds alot like a "native" saying "I shouldn't have to follow you laws" while he/she says "treat me like everyone else."

Just my opinion!

------------------
I'd rather be fishing and think about church, than be at church and thinking about fishing!

[This message has been edited by sirlips (edited 06-16-2004).]

[huskiesplayer15]

The comments I made today were uncalled for, so I apologize with my deepest sincerities, if you think the statements I made from experiences I have had to ban me from this then fine. I know now from listening to chells, davidh and others that i am either of the many or few who have misconceptions about native american. For those who I have offended heres my email address huskiesplayer15 at yahoo.com, if your around the cities we'll hook up and i buy you some wings or tacos or something and you can tell me the good things that they do. So I am sorry again and do apologize, I will learn to just keep my mouth and fingers shut when it comes political/moral/opinion topics.
I will just stick to helping people catch fish and have more fun.
Best Fishes
Chris

[DavidH]

sirlips...I assume that you are referring to me since I am the only Native posting in this thread.

Lets begin to pick apart what you posted...

You said that I said,

quote:

---

We have been doing this for many years to feed our tribe.

---

Wrong. I said,

quote:

---

netting has been a way of Native life since the beginning.

---

I do not live on a reservation. My band isn't even in this state. You know what? I shop at Cub and Rainbow just like you do.

You said I said,

quote:

---

feeding our tribe

---

Wrong again. I said...

quote:

---

Takes a lot of fish to feed a reservation

---

If you want to call my family "my tribe", then yes, I do keep the occasional fish that I catch and my tribe/family has it with dinner.

Now...you said for me to call up my casino bosses. Where the hell do you get off calling them MY casino bosses??? I NEVER stated what nation I am from. You certainly assume a lot since you must think I live on a reservation that is subsidized by a casino. God...I WISH! I wouldn't have to work every day from 8 to 5 as a Systems Administrator. I could fish all day long then. Wow...that would be a great life.

You aren't batting too well here. What the heck...lets continue to pick apart your "opinion".

You said...

quote:

---

NO ONE is "native" or "unnative" anymore. I was born in this state next to the same river as YOU.

---

That is just laughable. Serious. Think before you type next time. Again you are assuming quite a bit here since I wasn't even born in this state.

You said...

quote:

---

You want nobody to say anything about race yet you say you should be able to net ..why?...because of your race. ???

---

Again..think before you type. Accusing someone of something because of their race is called racism.

*meh*

I am going to stop here and not bother to pick your post apart any further. If I was speaking to someone who came across with the least little bit of Native knowledge then I would continue. Even if you pretended that you had some understanding then I would go on. However, I feel like I would just be talking to a brick wall here if I pursued this any further.

Lastly, I never asked to be treated any differently. As a matter of fact, had you attempted to read any of my posts in this thread, I pay my way just like the "good ol boy" that you come across as.

You may want to take some of your Grandpas advice there before you try replying again.

[This message has been edited by DavidH (edited 06-16-2004).]

[DavidH]

quote:

---

huskiesplayer15

wrote

The comments I made today were uncalled for, so I apologize with my deepest sincerities, if you think the statements I made from experiences I have had to ban me from this then fine. I know now from listening to chells, davidh and others that i am either of the many or few who have misconceptions about native american. For those who I have offended heres my email address huskiesplayer15 at yahoo.com, if your around the cities we'll hook up and i buy you some wings or tacos or something and you can tell me the good things that they do. So I am sorry again and do apologize, I will learn to just keep my mouth and fingers shut when it comes political/moral/opinion topics.

I will just stick to helping people catch fish and have more fun.

Best Fishes

Chris

---

Chris, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to write that out. If you are ever out in Mound, I would be more than happy to take you out on the lake I live on and do a little fishing. I'll even bring the beer

[huskiesplayer15]

sounds good davidH
Best Fishes
Chris

[windsurferlawman]

Ok, my turn-

David H said:

"God...I WISH! I wouldn't have to work every day from 8 to 5 as a Systems Administrator. I could fish all day long then. Wow...that would be a great life."

Yeah Dave, and you wouldn't even have to check those nets or clean the fish you caught in them. You could just toss them in the woods or leave them in the water to rot like several other tribal members! Hell, no one want's to be different, right???

David H also said:
"Lastly, I never asked to be treated any differently."

Ok Dave, you are fooling about 1 person with that line and here is proof...
"netting has been a way of Native life since the beginning."

Wrong Dave- there had to be that first time some native american carved a stick to a point and speared a fish. Why can't that first day happen for me?

The end of tribal netting is nearer than you may think Dave and it will come to an end because of sportsmen and women who are fed up with what the natives have done to our lakes! Yes, I said our lakes! They are every bit as much mine as they are yours.

One example--- Red Lake- ruined! They netted everything they could and then some- Sure, the good old MN DNR restocks it with 'Eyes after they are all gone, but what else is the DNR good for?

Dave- I am not saying that you are doing anything-

You wanna talk about history this and history that, well in recent history the natives have a crappy record with keeping up a decent image. Piles of fish have been found countless times in the Walker-Bena area. Those fish came from nets and I'll give you 3 guesses on who owns and placed those nets.

michael

[DavidH]

Lets get this clear one last time.

I...dont...like...netting.

ok? Are we clear on that? Stop thinking that I agree with netting. Will I be happy when there is no netting? HELL YES!

Holy **** . Some of you seem to think that I think this netting thing is ok. Am I not explaining myself correctly here? Is there something more that I could say that I havent that would convince you that I am against netting?

How about this...

DAVIDH HATES NETTING AND DOESNT THINK IT SHOULD BE DONE ANYMORE!!!

Is that clear enough for you windsurferlawman???

You wote,

quote:

---

David H also said:

"Lastly, I never asked to be treated any differently."

Ok Dave, you are fooling about 1 person with that line and here is proof...

"netting has been a way of Native life since the beginning."

---

Ya? And? What do those two statements have to do with each other? Yes...netting has been a way of life for Natives since the beginning. This is a fact. What does that have to do with me stating that I dont want to be treated any differently?

Know what? Dont answer that question. I have had it with this thread. I leave you all to accuse anyone of anything you want for whatever reason.

Adios. I am outta here.

[walleyehawk]

Guys, lets all step back and take a chill pill. And a big one at that.

Dave H is not part of the problem, he is being hit unfairly because he said he is an Indian. HE DID NOT PLACE THOSE NETS. WHY BE MAD AT HIM!

I know some are very angry. We have seen way too many releases about poaching this spring, and now more discussion of fish wasting on nets.

Lets calmly get back to the problem. Someone is not following the rules in netting. And we need to do what we can to try and put an end to this waste of resource, accidental or intentional.

Our Twin Cities Media is a waste of time. they will not touch this with a 10 foot pole. Maybe the Outdoor News or some sportsmans magazine would be able to help.

We need to get some addresses to send letters to the proper tribal authorities that as sportsmen we have concerns about this net being left and wasted resources.

We resolve nothing by attacks against one another. Dave H may be a valued resource in trying to resolve the problem. Heck, he may even decide to send a letter himself.

[Guest]

Man, I log-off for the night and I just read all of these new postings and there are dead and wounded laying all around, how sad.

DaveH, if you happen to read this, please don't let those who would rather remain angry keep your valuable insights out of this thread.

It's obvious that you're the "Whipping Child" due to your honesty here and I appreciate you sticking your neck out.

I'd like to see more "lights come on" as it did for Michael--after all, isn't that what we all need more of?

One critical item I'd like us all to keep in mind is that regardless of the other offenses noted in this thread that are used to nullify the premis of this specific "crime", it would do all of good to stay on track and on this issue alone.

It's quite obvious that mankind in general has many who just can't follow moral or other laws and they go their own way. These people deserve punishment regardles of their heritage.

What would be nice to see from this specific incident is a consorted effort to first discover of this was an accident or an actual "crime"; if it is a punishable offense, then it would be great to see this person make a public apology and let the Band leadership decide on the next course of action.

Their "punishment" may not be what we all agree is just; however, it will be their business, not ours.

The bottom line is that the Soverign people are just that--we helped create this Nation within a Nation, and like it or not, it is what it is.

It's no different than if we were "subject" to the laws of some other Nation or Country.

Imagine what our lives would be like if punishment for crimes committed in America were dictated by, say, Saudi Arabia?

Shop lifters would be running around with missing fingers or hands! Man, would that make things around here difficult!

------------------
Chells

[Guest]

Correction, not Michael, it was Huskiplayer15...SORRY!

------------------
Chells

[big drift]

Some people you can address this issue to is:

Director of public safety Leech Lake DPS
Cass Lake, MN

Leech Lake Tribal Council, Cass Lake

MCT (Minnesota Chippewa Tribe), Cass Lake

Since it is Federal try the U.S. Fish and Game

Also Ojibwe Press

Try Northland News out of Bemidji

Contact your state reps.

Trust me it is an election year people will respond.

Onto interferring with nets if you are caught tampering with nets you could face charge at both a state and federal level. Also you are putting yourself and others that may come later in jeopardy. If you want to reach a conclusion instead of an adversarial organzation attempt to set a joint organization of Tribal reps and sportsmen work together on addressing the issue and you will be surprised at how many Tribal members support direction and control of this resource. it is just when you have two opposing sides and lack of knowledge you result in conflict. Think about it.

[SCUMFROG]

Holy cow.

How can you people bash the Native Americans like this? We took they're land and pushed them into small peaces of land so we could live here. Then years later our nation lets thousands of refuges from all over the place come here and live. We told them they could have a better life here. We treat them good why can't we do this for the Indians? I'm not saying that I'm against any one coming here to live. I just think it's bulls--t how we treated and still treat the Native Americans. I think it's very wrong what happened back then but there is nothing I can do about it. But I can be a better person knowing that I will not treat people like this.

I didn't agree with the netting thing. I think it is wrong no matter who is doing it.

And by the way I am part Indian. A very small part. And David I'd like to go fishing with you and learn more about your heritage

[Bushwacker]

First off, DavidH, I have the utmost respect for you. It is very impressive how you can calmly reply to all of these completely negative posts. It really shows you are a man of great character. You are a real asset to this site. I hope that you are not discouraged enough to leave. Thank you very much for your insight. There are very few "non-Native Americans" that really have any idea at all of how the Native American culture works, myself included.

Secondly, the issue here is one net found on Winnie. ONE NET. That means one knucklehead abused his rights and abused our natural resources. If every Native American would net and leave them out in Winnie there would be hundreds of thousand of floating nets. There are bad seeds in all culture/races. How does one net found full of rotting fish and some piles of dead fish in ditches relate to housing issues around Mille Lacs. That is attacking a whole race. Generalizing is hardly ever a positive things when talking about cultures, and this is a perfect example why. People, before you post, please think about if you want to be grouped with every other person of your race. I am Caucasian and right now there are a few people I can think of(and not even on this sit) that I would rather not be generalized with.

[irvingdog]

I'm not Indian. I don't like tribal rights. I don't like sovereign nation status. I'm a conservative, republican. But more than this, I really dislike peoples uneducated, lathering name-calling towards people who have nothing to do with the curent topic. It called being pragmatic. Look it up.

No, you don't have the right to "vent" towards the first Indian you meet. Just like Al Queda terrorists don't have the right to "vent" towards the first westerner they can pick up of of the streets of Saudi Arabia. (A leap, I know. Just trying to make a point) And yes, to abuse and badger Indians that have values similar to your own is foolish. What would make most anglo's happy is assimilation. By all means, drive away the first one you meet......

[Guest]

Huskiesplayer15....
I tried to email a response to your email to me but came back as undeliverable.

Send me a new one.

[Farley]

From what I've read this isnt the first time someone has found a net with rotting fish. There has been numerous posts on this thread with people saying they've also found nets on Winni and Leech with rotting fish for years.

A solution?? I just think many people, and myself somewhat, think that these privliges should be taken away, not just because of this instance but because it is not good for the fishery.

Many moons ago my forefathers took this land and industrilized(sp?) it. I've heard this story ever since I was old enough to comprehend it. How long are we supposed to feel sorry about what happened hundreds of years ago. Maybee some of these people who keep playing that card would rather have America be a communist controlled country because who knows what America would be if the Europeans didnt settle here. My guess is this land would be called "New China".

[Jim W]

Opinions are welcomed as long as they don't attack or bash.

Unfortunately, being a part of FM longer than most here, I see threads like this take a bad turn 90% of the time. SOmetimes threads are cut short, noticing those cues that generally precede negativity.
It's the nature of debate or in a lot of cases those who participate in debate who do not understand "give and take" in/with opinion.

Let's remember (for the umpteenth time) to keep things civil, friendly and informative.
We will try to explain deletions, but do not have to.

Back to fishing!

Jim W

[DavidH]

Thank you to those for the encouraging comments directed at me. I appreciate it.

I will be writing a letter to both the DNR and the Band council where this net was found and voice my opinion on the issue. I encourage others to do the same.

While I do not agree with the practice of netting fish, I do stand by my beliefs regarding providing for a family. Not that I expect some or all to agree with this however there are those Natives that choose to live according to the way they were taught. The "old ways". To each their own. Follow the law and don't take more than is required.

Farley. Interesting your comment about North America possibly being called "New China" Based on the Y chromosome haplotype, there are theories that state Native Americans are descendants of the Chinese. Rather intriguing isn't it?

[Farley]

I've also read something that stated Natives possibly came over from Asia, not particularly China though. It said nothing about the Y chromosone, just that the language similarities and features were similar when the Europeans settled here. It says at some point in time they came accross the Bering Straight and spread out accross the land.

[Willy]

I think that what happened here on other times with nets is a very bad deal and quite frankly it [PoorWordUsage]es me off. I know that all native americans are not bad just as all races have good and bad in them. However, I feel that the people responsible for this incident and others like them should taken care of accordingly. They shouldn't just recieve a slap on the wrist. They should lose their fishing rights altogether. I really don't know what the band has that controls their resources as the DNR does ours, but, I'm pretty sure there is something and they are trying to stop things like this from happening. However, it doesn't seem like they are doing a very good job. I guess I just hope to see some cooperation between the DNR and the Band to make sure things like this don't happen as often as they do. Eventually I would like to see all netting banned. You can say it is a way of life and all but, really most people that do it are abusing it and it needs to stop.

[DavidH]

It appears that the netting discussion may have come to a dispute of rights. Or lack of rights?

Just to make clear the "rules" when it comes to Native netting/spearing/fishing. Natives may only net and or spear on tribal waters. If they are doing it on State waters, they are breaking the law unless they have a commercial fishing license. Yes, Natives can and do fish on State waters. They must purchase a fishing license though just like everyone else. Non Natives can and do fish on tribal waters. They must ask permission first from the band to which that water resides on.

OK. So...the rights of few outweighs those of the many. Correct? How does this get ratified then? Remove all rights pertaining to netting or allow everyone to net? Surely we cant have everyone netting nor would we want to have everyone netting. The resources would dry up faster than my drive home from work. So, we remove everyone's right to net. Yes, there will be those Natives that will complain. The ones that complain the loudest will probably be the ones that are pulling in more then their fair share. So be it. It has to be done that way if we hope to have a healthy fishery. In the meantime, until that does happen (and I hope it happens sooner rather than later) being civil to everyone involved is only proper. Attacking me because there are those that have issues with Native rights or Natives in general, does nothing to further their cause. It only makes me less compassionate.

While we are on the subject of rights, a little side note. You people, (American citizens) have a right that I don't. One that I would dearly love to have. My nation is Mohawk. The reservation that I belong to is the Akwesasne. Our reservation crosses the US/Canada border. I happened to be born on the Canadian side of the reservation and thus, I have a Canadian birth certificate. Since Native people do not recognize the borders because Native people were here before the borders were placed, we are allowed to live/work/play on either side. The US and Canadian governments both recognize the Jay Treaty of 1794 which gives us this right among others.

Now, here is the right that you have and I don't. I don't have the right to vote. I don't even have the right to vote in Canada since my Nation is in both countries. I have no say in how I want to see either country run. At this point, since I don't live on my reservation, I don't have a right to vote on Native affairs there either. Am I bitter because of that? Ya...you might say I am. My wife, who is non Native, has decided that she will vote consciously for the both of us.

With respect to living a Native life similar to 400 years. It might be fun for a weekend but I would have to pass on that over the long run. I really do appreciate my new boat and electric stove and washer and dryer and big soft comfy bed and...and...and...you get the idea.

[This message has been edited by DavidH (edited 06-17-2004).]

[walleyehawk]

Bigdrift

Thank you for the names of the people we can write. Do you have addresses or locations so we can look up the address on the internet.

Folks, there have been things said on this thread that we don't need to revisit. Lets concentrate on moving forward. Lets focus on this specific act at Winnie. If we focus on Indian netting rights, this thread will go up in flames and be deleted. And nothing will happen.

We have a chance to do something here other than complain. We can make others aware of our concerns. Depending on who we write, we can tell them it may affect our vote for them. Maybe it will have other civilized actions.

Cutting nets is against the law. What these individuals apparently did may be against the law. Do we want to stoop to that level? I hope as sportsmen we can be more civilized than that.

[Farley]

Dave,

That sucks. You are American enough to pay taxes but to Native to vote.

[walleyehawk]

Dave H

I have been curious for a while about some of the Native American's rights in the US. I get confused with the sovereign nation stuff.

I know they can serve in the US military. Can Native Americans born on the US side of the border vote in US national, state and local elections? Or is their voting restricted to within the reservation?

If they live and work on the reservation, do they pay US state and federal taxes or do they pay a tax to the reservation.

I have no ulterior motives here, I am just trying to get a better understanding of the situation. Like I said, this sovereign nation stuff confuses me.

Thanks

[DavidH]

To contact the The Leech Lake Reservation Tribal offices...

Leech Lake Reservation
Route 3, Box 100
Cass Lake, MN 56633
(218)-335-8200

Farley...it's a little ironic.

walleyehawk...
Native people do pay Federal and State taxes even if they live on a reservation. There are certain circumstances where they do not. I am not completely sure of all the facts on it though. If a Native person makes a purchase on a reservation, then they do not pay taxes. I think? Since I dont live on a reservation, I am not positive of all the tax breaks/legalities regarding this.

As for the voting issue, I really havent a clue about that. I *think* they can?