Report: Effectiveness of borax/salt treated cisco (Good news update!)

[Steve Foss]

Well folks, early indication are that these aren't working very well at all for pike. I'll say up front that the jury's still out regarding my own opinion. Edit: scroll down for an update from today (Monday). You'll see just how important it is to hydrate these borax/salt treated ciscos.

Here's what I know from today, and from what I've been told by two other longtime pike anglers, also today.

First, a bit of background. I fished a no-miss spot on Birch Lake near Babbitt using cisco treated in borax/salt. For those who don't know it, Birch is a big pike mecca, and numbers are high as well. I've fished this spot for 6-7 winters. A slow day is 8-12 flags, with 20 about average and one or two days a year with 30+ flags. I've never had fewer than 8 flags over a 6-hour period there. This is with 2 tip-ups, so we're talking a truly excellent area of the lake. PIke range from 20 to over 40 inches there.

Today was my first day out this season. The reason I picked this spot (well, aside from the fact that it rocks) was to give the treated cisco a thorough chance to succeed.

I had 2 flags in six hours of fishing. Yes, 2. Both times the baits were immediately dropped. Neither flag was wind-induced, and both cisco had teeth/chew marks from a strike. Two anglers were set up on the same structure a hundred yards or so down from me, and they did not have any flags in the two hours we were all fishing (I left 2 hours after they got there). They also were using the treated cisco. We talked at length about the issue. These guys have 60 years of pike tip-up fishing experience between them. They had a few dozen frozen cisco left over from last year, and rather than dump them, they used them their first two trips the last week alongside the treated cisco.

Their results: The old frozen cisco produced more than twice as many flags as the freshly treated cisco. Two other items of interest. They said they only got hits on the treated ones after they'd been in the water 2-3 hours, and in ALL cases the pike dropped the baits. Their guess is that there's just some flavor/scent about the borax/salt treated ciscos the pike don't like, and the longer they are in the water, the more that fades away. Both my flags came in the last two hours of my time out there today, after the cisco had been soaking on the hook for at least 3 hours.

There were a handful of anglers also on the same structure about 300 yards away, and they had more flags than we did, and landed several fish. They were using live suckers.

It's too early for me to conclude these treated cisco are not effective bait, though obviously I'm leaning that way. I've been using nothing but dead baits for the last five or so years, because I've found in my fishing travels through N.D., Minn., and Wis., that dead outfishes live for winter pike 4:1. Both the guys I talked to at length today agreed with that, and also only ever use dead cisco for pike.

Tomorrow I'm going back to the same spot with a couple dozen live suckers and the treated cisco and will do a side-by-side test. If the treated cisco produce the same dismal results as they did today (I'm sure the suckers will produce fish), they are all going in the garbage and I'll wash my hands of them. And then it'll be live suckers for me for the rest of pike season, with some experimentation on how well live suckers do compared with dead suckers.

I'm very interested to hear other hands-on reports, not only of borax/salt treated cisco/smelt, but of those treated in alcohol or mineral oil. So please include your own experiences with these baits on this thread.

I did not post this so we can have a beotch session over the new regulation. We've already been there and done that.

Thanks!

[reinhard1]

very interesting. now it has been said that eggs stored in borax [which i have done for years for loopers and steelhead] doesn't seem to bother the steelhead or loopers. but to me when a looper hits a spawn bag it is fast and quick and realy no chance to mouth the bait and drop it. so who knows. hope you have better luck on your next outing.good luck.

[Spearing Machine]

DANG, Steve, that is not at all what I had been hoping for or even expecting. It may be a pretty dismal pike/tip up season for me then if that's how its going to be. Thanks for the great in depth report. Better luck next time out, lets hope it was a bad day.

[Steve Foss]

Jeremy, I wish I could write it off as a bad fishing day. But since the other treated cisco guys were doing carpy and the only action we saw came on suckers, I'm a bit doubtful of that.

However, tomorrow will tell the tale! If I get good numbers of flags on the treated cisco, they'll still be in the game, and I'll write today off as a fluke. Either way, I'll post a follow-up report.

Well, if I can find suckers, that is. No one has them in Ely, Just Bite Me doesn't have them in Babbitt. Gotta check Blomberg's. If not there, maybe have to make a big detour to the Y store or Vermilion Fuel and Food in Tower.

[Mike Stark]

thanks for the report foss. hopefully the trout like em more than the pike!

lucky 7 has suckers.

[Steve Foss]

lucky 7 has suckers.

I was just there. The tank labeled "light northern" suckers is full of what look to be creek chubs, although they are nice sized, and the guy at the counter didn't know when they're getting more suckers in.

[Great Outdoors]

Stevo,

Did you see my post about the borax/salt cisco?????? You must hydrate them for 3 hours or more at home before using them.

Call me at the shop, or stop in tomorrow from 11-1.

We should have suckers before the end of the week, maybe as early as Wednesday.

[Steve Foss]

I didn't see that, Jim. How in the world is someone supposed to hydrate them when they're in a sealed pack and still follow the regs? I guess a person has to carefully tear off the plastic wrap, soak them in water for 3 hours and then put them back in, preserving the wrap?

If they need hydration, why doesn't the packager himself hydrate them (after they've been packed in the borax/salt the required time) before packing? Realistically, that should be the packager's job.

I won't be stopping in the shop tomorrow. I have to figure out this bait thing quite soon. I will, however, hydrate them over night here at home so they'll be ready when I hit the ice.

[Great Outdoors]

You are following the regs, because you are hydrating treated bait. All you need is to have the tag from the package with the permit #, lot #, date processing initiated, date processing completed.

There is a big difference between the borax/salt cisco in the package, and the hydrated cisco, as you will see.

They still do not look as good as the freshly frozen cisco, but they aren't too bad.

[Steve Foss]

OK, here's what I've done to prep for tomorrow. The ciscos were packed with the typical foam base tray with cellophane wrapped around it. The packager's labels were applied to the foam bottom, not the cellophane, luckily. So I've pulled off all the cellophane, rinsed all the foam trays clean of salt/borax, rinsed the ciscos clean of it and have them soaking in a 5-gallon bucket of water. Before hitting the hay tonight I'll put them back on the foam trays and re-wrap them in cellophane, and hope that follows enough of the letter of the law. They'll look just as the did when I bought them, except they will be fatter and there will be no evidence that salt/borax ever was applied. They will look a lot like untreated frozen cisco, except I do notice these treated ones are much more bruised along the belly/gill areas, and when they soak in water they tend to start to fall apart a bit along the bellies. At least the ones under the ice did that today.

OK, tomorrow's a whole new adventure!

[Steve Foss]

You are following the regs, because you are hydrating treated bait. All you need is to have the tag from the package with the permit #, lot #, date processing initiated, date processing completed.

There is a big difference between the borax/salt cisco in the package, and the hydrated cisco, as you will see.

They still do not look as good as the freshly frozen cisco, but they aren't too bad.

Thanks, Jim. I honestly missed your previous comment about hydration, and haven't heard it from any other bait dealer. I sure hope the completely rinsed/hydrated ones work better than today's batch. Are you going to be hydrating the ones you sell yourself before freezing them, or is that going to be up to the customer? I'd easily pay a buck more per dozen for fully rinsed and hydrated ones, as long as they are effective, to avoid this hassle.

[Great Outdoors]

Try putting them in a baggie with water, and let them hydrate all night. As long as you have the proof of treated bait tag, you should be good to go.

[Great Outdoors]

If the dealers have to hydrate them, it just adds to the already too long process. It's easy enough to stick them in water overnight and let them swell up a bit.

Besides, keeping them "as is" with the borax/salt until needed, makes them easier for you to just leave them in a cool area (no refrigeration needed) until you're ready for your next trip.

[Steve Foss]

Try putting them in a baggie with water, and let them hydrate all night. As long as you have the proof of treated bait tag, you should be good to go.

I will let them hydrate all night, but in a 5-gallon bucket, and I'm going to change the water before bedtime. The more diluted/weaker that borax/salt smell and taste is, the better, I figure. I understand completely you don't want the added carp of hydrating them before packaging, just as I don't want to have to do it before using them. To me, the advantages you mentioned just = hassle. No biggie, just sayin.

If these work out well tomorrow, I'm a lot more likely to buy them 10 dozen at a time and handle all 10 dozen so I'm good to go for a few trips.

Thanks for that hydrating/rinsing info!

[Mike Stark]

wow. they went quick. they had a bunch a few days ago. nice sized one too.

[side_laker]

thanks for the update keep us all posted.

[deadeye]

Well thank you Steve for posting this as I rudely found out today about this whole ordeal when I went to the bait shop here in the cities to buy some. I guess I wasn't paying enough attention to bait regulations lately. They still don't have any preserved bait around here that I could find. No good shinners either so I guess its back to the miserable old sucker minnows (I have never had luck with them so I guess I will just hang up the tip ups until I find a alternative).

I am going to have to find a hot spot for mooneyes/goldeneyes. They are probably the closest thing to ciscos that are legal. I wonder if shad would be a good bet too?

[Steve Foss]

Jon, pike will gobble shad, goldeye and mooneye readily. And I'd bet you don't need only the small ones, either. Cutting larger ones in chunks should work.

[deadeye]

Thats good to know.

Its a real bummer for me cause I always used to use shinners and did decent. Then they made it so you couldn't get them. I finally tried the ciscos last year and had the best ice fishing for pike that I have ever had (I wish I had used them when I lived in Ely!) Now I cant get them either. Its almost laughable.

I do know one way or another I will get my hands on some shad or goldeneyes and give them a shot. I know somewhere I have seen frozen shad so the search is on!

[Steve Foss]

Jon, there will for sure be bait shops near you selling these preserved cisco/smelt. And the jury is still out. We'll see how these born-again cisco do tomorrow. Could be they'll do fine, and it will be nothing more than a buck or so more per dozen and a few hours of added hassle.

That's what I'm hoping for, anyway.

I think it's not likely that the preserved smelt will hold up well after being thawed and soaked. They're not nearly as tough and meaty as cisco, and one freeze/thaw cycle is usually enough to turn them so mushy it's hard to keep them on a hook for long without them falling apart.

[Cliff Wagenbach]

Steve,

Have you ever tried frozen shiners? When I used to fish trout a lot years ago I had fairly good luck using frozen shiners that I strung like you do ciscos.

Cliff

[Steve Foss]

Cliff, if these ciscos don't pan out tomorrow I'm going to switch completely to suckers, and I plan to use a combo of live and dead ones to see which the pike might prefer. Easy enough for me to add shiners to the list. I know they are great pike and laker bait. Thanks for the tip!

[JBMasterAngler]

Thanks for the report Steve I had a feeling the preserved cisco/smelt weren't going to be as effective. And of course this was the winter I was going to use frozen bait for pike Well, I'm going to go to the asian market down the street from my house and see what kind of frozen fish I can get there for bait.

I watched in-fisherman the other day, and it looked like they were using frozen mackerel for bait. They could've been using really big smelt, but it looked like they had a row of black dots down the lateral line.

[chris63]

I bought some 7to10 inch fish at an Asian market last year.We brought them on a trip to LOW.Didn't get one taker on those for three days.Had some tullibee from Mille Lacs I caught myself (and then froze)and we couldn't keep them on the hooks.I thought for sure the different species of fish might be the ticket but not so at LOW.At least that time out.We'll keep experimenting.Happy hooking!!!!!c63

[Ed Carlson]

Steve if you wish to share it, what ratio of Borax/Salt do you use in the cure mix. Average dose time per pound....ect. If I missed it on a precious post, I apologies for the redundant question.

I plan to try to cure up some Mooneye/Goldeye, and give your system a go.

Thanks,