dealerships vs auto repair shops

[bucketmouth64]

It frustrates me when I have work on my tires that they find other things wrong other than my tires. Sure there are some obvious things that need repair like brakes. But one thing that I wonder about is ball joints or other front end stuff. I've had places say I need something replaced and dealership says they are fine. One shop said that if ball joint moves 1/4 inch it needs replacing other wise it will affect tire wear then dealership says nothing needs to be done. So who do I trust? Do dealerships not replace marginal things because it is within their specs and other repair shops say it needs to be done? I am picky who works on my vehicles. I don't want to be ripped off. The only repair shop I trust is my transmission guy.

[pulleye16]

alot of it is just commen scense IMO. Alot of places try to make your car like "new" again and will try to fix everything. I've been to places that say "well you have some wear here and there and should probably replace this." I usually tell them the truck is ten years old and I hope it has some wear and tear on it. I was told by a "Tire" shop that I had no brake pads left and was rubbing on metal to metal causing sever damage to my rotars. I told them no cause I wasen't hear anything or felt any thing different. Got home, called a friend and found out I had at least 30% left on the brake pads...

My suggestion is to always self examine before you take it in unless you can hear a difference or feel it. I always consult with family and friends or will even call a few shops after I've been told something needs to be fixed and see what they say. Doing required maintanence is a different story as I try to follow there guidelines but with some variance on mileage and hours of course.

As for your ball joints, I'd think they'd be fine. They'll usually make a lot of noise when they go bad.

[deadeye]

I work at a dealer and they are super strict about stuff being in good shape. Idk if other dealers are like that but there are some things might not be "bad" but still could use to be replaced.

If its within spec then it should be fine but I guess personally I tend to stay on the cautious side. I have had the fun of having a ball joint pop at 70mph around a corner on a highway and it is one of the few times I can say I was really honestly scared in a vehicle.

Either way, ask to see the damage for yourself. They should show you the play and you can see for yourself if its no bueno.

[Valv]

I usually go to the "Tires" shop and have it checked. They tell me all it's wrong (or what they think it is wrong) with the vehicle. I say, thanks, then go home and fix it myself

[Jeremy airjer W]

Would you rather know what is wrong, worn out, starting to show some signs of wear, or broken or would you rather not know and have it be a surprise when it does break?

No shop is twisting your arm making you fix your car. If there is any question as to what is wrong have them show you. If they don't never go back! The other alternative is get a second opinion.

Every business is in the business to make money. We just happen to make our buy fixing cars. Its no different than a plumber, electrician, doctor, teacher, IT, or any other profession.

Everyone knows what is right with there car not to many know what is wrong. That's my job!

[muddpuppy]

Would you rather know what is wrong, worn out, starting to show some signs of wear, or broken or would you rather not know and have it be a surprise when it does break?

No shop is twisting your arm making you fix your car. If there is any question as to what is wrong have them show you. If they don't never go back! The other alternative is get a second opinion.

Every business is in the business to make money. We just happen to make our buy fixing cars. Its no different than a plumber, electrician, doctor, teacher, IT, or any other profession.

Everyone knows what is right with there car not to many know what is wrong. That's my job!

+1 but I am not a mechanic.... What I find the most shaddy in the auto fix business. Is the cost of repair.

1. Labor rate I have seen $45 to $105 per hour then they charge on a book rate. I know there's an experiance thing but that's not always the case.

2. Parts The shop has an account with NAPA they get a discount on their volume. So for an exampme the part cast me $10 to buy but it cost the shop $9. The shop then charges 20%+ for mak up off of the $10 it would cost you to buy the parts yourself.

3. Shop supplies etc. $15 - $20 I have seen.

Then theres this. I brought my car into get an alignmet. After I put on new tires and wheel hubs. After driving home I noticeced a clunking in the stering that was never there. I called the shop and told them 2 days later I brought the car in to have them double and tripple check their work. After they inspected my car the mechanic proceed to tell me everything was fine and within spec. That the noise I hear and feel is normal and a know issue with my Impalla. I asked what the known issue was and what it would take to fix. He says whell I'm not exactly sure. they then try to charcge me a service fee to check work they did 2 days ago.

There seem to be no industy standard on charges at least that make sense to me...

[Valv]

I think what Airjer meant was the car repair business is like many others a matter of trust and integrity.

Most mechanics are honest people and try to do their best for you. Unfortunately sometimes, the risk of NOT fixing something minimal (thus the liability of it) forces people to go add repairs that are not 100% needed.

I have slightly bad ball joints and I know it, I can drive my car forever this way. If I loose a wheel it will be my fault only, but if I take it to a shop they will have to disclose it especially if I decide not to fix it, or they could be responsible for the outcome.

Other businesses have same issues, a plumber is a classic example, or an appliance repairman.

Even dentists and doctors are not exempt from this.

It's the few that betray our trust that spoil the majority of the honest people businesses, and there are some out there, no doubt.

[Ryan_V]

It is all a matter of trust and customer service. I used to go to a place where I couldn't get out of there without a grand of "recommended" service. When I question why or ask to see it, I get brushed off. I have a guy that I trust. It's a drive, but it's worth it. He fixes what I tell him to and finds nothing else wrong. If he does bring something to my attention, he always shows me and explains in detail. I'll drive the extra 30 miles to a guy I trust, I've brought business to him as a result and taken business away from the other place as well. It's a gut instinct you have to follow. If you treat me right, I'll be back every time, if you insult me and make me mad, you'll never see me again.

[Jeremy airjer W]

1. Labor rate I have seen $45 to $105 per hour then they charge on a book rate. I know there's an experiance thing but that's not always the case.

[BobT]

There are some advantages for both parties with the rate book. When it comes to hiring a mechanic to repair your vehicle you are not paying for time, you are paying for expertise. The book rate has been put together to provide a mechanic with a basic idea of how long it should take to complete a project so they can provide consistent quotations to all their customers. Imagine if you go to a shop and have your brakes done on your car and find out that the price you paid was about double what your neighbor did and he had the same model and year car as you simply because your mechanic was less accurate with your quotation than your neighbor’s or vise versa.

Quite often when they get a job it’s after the owner has been struggling to make the repair himself and has rounded out bolt heads, damaged parts, partially disassembled components, etc. and expects the mechanic to figure out how to finish the job. A mechanic friend of mine told me about a time when a customer brought in a box of parts that he claimed were a carburetor and asked the mechanic to put it back together.

There’s also the issue of experience. The class A mechanic will use less time to do the job but isn’t his experience worth more than the class C mechanic? Using the rate book we customers are paying one price and if the mechanic assigned to the job is less experience and so takes twice as long, well, the shop gets paid half as much per hour. If we paid by the hour, we’d pay more for less experience.

I think one difference between dealerships vs. other shops is the level of expertise. Not the expertise of the mechanic per se but the knowledge with the product. Just as some doctors are general practitioners and others are specialists, Ford mechanics are trained by Ford to work on Ford products, GM mechanics are trained to work on GM products, Chrysler for Chrysler, etc. Other repair shops are good at what they do and can work on a wide variety of products but they are not specialized. What they might have over the dealership shops is more customer contact. I believe the majority of repair work is done by non-dealership shops and they see a lot more. This can be a good knowledge to have on their side as well.

I like it when I bring my vehicle into the shop and they find other things that need attention either immediately or in the near future. What I have found is that it is very beneficial to find a mechanic you trust and stick with him/her. They keep records and as a loyal customer they learn how to treat you, what you expect, and the level of communication you need. I take my newer Ford truck to the dealership for all my repairs. Have been since 2001 but I also own an older GM car. I take that to a local repair shop for service. In both cases, they have learned that I expect more information than just, “You need this repair done.” They tell me if the repair is an immediate concern or if I have some time. They will go as far as to show me the area of their concern and explaining why they feel the repair is needed so I can make my own decision. I expect nothing less from them or my physician.

One of my biggest pet peeves for me comes from my opening statements. When I hire a mechanic I expect that I am hiring someone that knows what he is doing. If I suspect that the shop is replacing parts as a fact-finding mission, I will let them know that I will not pay for poke-and-hope labor. I can replace parts until I find the cause of the problem. I expect the shop to use the tools of the trade to accurately diagnose the problem and make the appropriate repairs and if they are wrong to stand behind their work and make it right at their labor cost or some reduced rate at the very least. If they don’t, it will be a cold day in hell before they get my business again. It’s up to them. Do they want a repeat loyal customer or a one-time shot?

[DTro]

I saw an ad the other night during the football game for this place called First Gear DIY garage in Eden Praire.

Basically you rent a bay (with or without lift), all the tools are provided, and even a full subscription to All Data.

We are not all auto mechanics but for things like brakes, fluid changes, and semi minor stuff, it seems like a pretty neat idea.

I think the bay with the lift is $30/hr.

[Jeremy airjer W]

Quite often when they get a job it’s after the owner has been struggling to make the repair himself and has rounded out bolt heads, damaged parts, partially disassembled components, etc.

Its funny how most of the time, when this is the case, they never mention they tried anything or broke anything!

[Jeremy airjer W]

DTRO, I had that idea back in 97-98. Couldn't get anybody on board!

The other problem is they are renting a bay for 8 hours for about $250. A good shop is averaging at least 10 times that a day per bay. My best day is a tad under $5k out of one bay. So you still have to wonder how the profits work out?

I'd love to be the on duty tech in that environment. I like helping people solve there problems maybe even more so that doing the work myself!

[Ryan_V]

Bottom line is this..... You can gripe and complain all you want about the cost of labor at a shop. If you're that unhappy with it, buy a repair manual and do it yourself. I for one make too much of an investment in my cars, so I want them to run correctly and if something goes wrong, to get repaired properly.

It's kind of like this.... I have a welder, I "sorta" taught myself how to weld, and am getting pretty decent at it. I have people ask me to weld something for them. I always say this.... "I can weld, but I would not want to stand on a platform I welded over a pit of rattlesnakes"!!!!!

A good mechanic you like and trust is worth his weight in gold when it comes to your vehicle!!

[muddpuppy]

Wow there are some passionate responces here, I like it.

I understand the cost of business...etc. I was not complaining by any means and appologize if I came across that way. What i attempted to do is list the ambiguities of the trade as I see them. Not so much the the dealer vs the Shop. but the trade in general.

I also agree with find a mechanic you trust and can rely on as well.

Airjer... Thanks for the responce on my car, I have not had the chance to look into known issues yet. I will start with your sugestion.

[1968]

The biggest problem with most auto service providers is they charge 100+ per hr and try to get away with 10-15 per hr help. Would any of you be a mechanic,electrician,electronics tech,plumber,welder,carpenter,fabricator,salesman,parts guy,grief counselor all in one for that coin?. For that kind of money you get low skilled help that was schooled at the quickie lube if you are lucky.

Commission and flatrate only encourages deceptive practices and some all out thievery.

[Jaspernuts]

I work for a fleet services company and I take about 80-90 repairs orders a day from different shops. When you say all out thievery, you are being nice. Im not saying all shops are bad, but there is a reason I have this job. Some of our driver will go in for a oil change and we get an estimate for thousands worth of work. We actually rate shops in out system based on integrity. Remember, the service writers are paid on commission and its in thier best interest to recommend marginal repairs.

[Jeremy airjer W]

Comission, maybe. Flatrate, no.

Flatrate is being paid for the jobs you do regardless of how long it takes you. You could put in a 20 hour week and bill out 80 hours worth of work. You get paid for 80 hours worth of work. On the flip side you could put in 50 hours in a week and only bill out 20 hours. Guess what you only get paid for 20 hours. It doesn't matter what you sell or recommend or repair what matters is how good and fast you are because if it comes back you make nothing talking care of whatever you missed or have to do over!

[1968]

Who here thinks flatrate is a good system? Going by your figures provided either the car owner or the tech is getting the shaft. There's also creative billing for those that know all the labor rate angles in order to keep their numbers up. And/or the job just gets rushed out the door in a "good enough" state.

Would anyone stay at a job after just one week of working 50 hours for 20 hours of pay? In most any other line of work this is very illegal. Maybe you don't Jer, but many others will stick it to the customer just to get their fair share. And as I'm sure you are aware of, cars don't always go "by the book". Is that your fault?

Highly skilled labor shouldn't have to fight for earnings and having to do so is the root cause of this industries problems.

[Jeremy airjer W]

I have worked flat rate, and Bogey. They are the same as far as what you earn. It makes no difference which one you get paid by if your busy you make money if your not you don't make money.

No body is getting the shaft with flat rate. It doesn't influence the billing to the customer and as far as the tech is concerned he doesn't care what parts he is replacing or how much they cost he is looking at how much labor is billed to replace the parts. He is just as content either replacing a $4 rear main seals on Nissan quests which will take him a couple of hours but he gets paid for 5 hours as he is changing a thousand dollar alternator on a land rover that pays .9 hours and it only takes him 15 minutes.

Many others don't stick it to the customers and usually the customers that think they have gotten stuck already have a preconceived notion that they are going to be taken advantage of, Overcharged, treated unfairly. Or they have never been to the shop, there car broke down, there a long ways from home and they have a long ways to go. There already frustrated then you spring a thousand dollar bill on them the repairs they need. Now we're highway robbers because they can get that done back home for half the price! I can spend a couple days price shopping everything I purchase and guess what I can always find it cheaper somewhere!

You know whats a sham. Fishing guides! These guys charge what close to $100 an hour with a three hour minimum? It only costs them $20 or $30 for gas for the boat they already paid for. They already have everything you need in the boat. Throw in $20 for bait. All that and there is no guarantee that you will catch anything and if you don't you still have to pay the guy. If you do catch something and you swing buy those spots later in the year he gets upset, WHAT? You showed somebody where they can catch fish and now your upset that they went back there to catch fish?

I'm so sick and tired of the auto industry getting the bad rap and bad mouthing that it gets. Especially from people who have never been on the other side of the counter or in the bay!!!! If you are one of those people you have no business making any accusations of whats shaddy or wrong!

The amount of shops that or shady are insignificant to the amount of shops that take care of there customers and truly appreciate there loyalty.

And by the way, truck drivers get paid by the mile and not by the hour. Sounds a lot like flat rate doesn't it!

[Ryan_V]

Better be careful, that vein on airjers forehead looks like it's about to burst!!!

[BobT]

I think the way it is done is about as fair as possible. We pay based on the repair and not based on the experience of the technician.

The only other way to do it would be to pay by the hour but the hourly rate will be different based on the experience level of the technician doing the work. The choice would be ours as a customer but in all fairness we would have to accept the outcome, good or bad. Like that would happen. We demand that the shop warrant their work and this method would not make that possible because we the customer chose the technician.

[1968]

I'm pretty sure I'm qualified to comment. Been fixing cars since the 80's. From what I've seen, the bad shops outnumber the good ones. The bad rap is fully deserved. The tanked economy helped thin the herd some, but now all these out of work mediocre mechanics only help the 10-15 per hr shops to maintain low standards. I've seen numerous people bent over plus not get the problem fixed. Things like tranny's replaced but still didn't fix it, only needed an ignition switch. I could go on and on. It's just that almost everyone has a car repair horror story or two.

Sure, some of the bad rap is undeserved. Car owners can shoulder some blame here too. Poor maintenenace habits, unrealistic expectations, giving the job to the lowest bidder, etc. Not all car owners are customers either. Some are merely people with broken cars. You will never please everybody no matter how hard you try.

The time I did in chain stores also earned me enormous amounts of guilt by association. Working at a Goodyear, you should know that happens. Some of them have revolving doors for tech's and owners.

Now your picking on fishing guides. 100 per hour? Sounds cheaper than getting you car fixed at many shops. A safe boat and experience come with a decent pricetag. Want to's usually don't come cheap. Renting a boat and its owner can be money ahead for a lot of people. A person unable or willing to spend that much might do just as well on shore with a snoopy pole too. Our success rate is non negotiable.

How about dealer guys. Flatrate isn't screwing them? How come they get less hours on a warranty job vs. cash pay? Why does the lowly tech get to shoulder the burden of poorly built cars?

Trucking only sounds like FR if they aren't getting paid for miles driven.

BobT- so what you are saying is the seasoned tech with 60k in tools should earn as much as the kid just out of tech school? Where do I sign up!

[Jeremy airjer W]

I don't work for goodyear!

Now your picking on fishing guides. 100 per hour? Sounds cheaper than getting you car fixed at many shops. A safe boat and experience come with a decent pricetag. Want to's usually don't come cheap. Renting a boat and its owner can be money ahead for a lot of people. A person unable or willing to spend that much might do just as well on shore with a snoopy pole too. Our success rate is non negotiable.

Thank you for making my point. If you don't like it fix it yourself. If you had a bad experience go somewhere else. If you have bad experiences every where you go maybe it's you and not the businesses! Don't rip on the industry because you had a bad experience at a chain store.

I have no problem with guides I just don't need to pay anyone to fish. Funny how I put the screws to guides and your right there defending them. Yet when I defend my profession as a whole your right there arguing that my profession is filled with no good cheating thieves? You think there are no bad guides? O.K.!

[BobT]

Quote:

BobT- so what you are saying is the seasoned tech with 60k in tools should earn as much as the kid just out of tech school? Where do I sign up!

Shop rates have nothing to do with the hourly rate paid to the technician unless they work on a percentage basis.