pipeless vent

[MNice]

Red, No argument here, just good civil discussion. I work with the codes every day, plumbing/mechanical inspector for a TC suburb. Either national code has charts/graphs for all climates, from Florida to Alaska with respects to rainfall, temps, etc. Our code is basically written back in 1933 (or so) and has so many goofy stipulations. For example, why can you drop a lav in a 2" toilet vent in the basement, but not on any other floor?? That one bugged me so bad I did propose a code change and it will more than likely be in the next code change where you can drain a lav in a 2" toilet vent anywhere in the house.

The national code are written and reviewed every 3 years by all members. There are literally thousands of voting members who propose and vote on code changes. These are engineers, contractors, inspectors, manufacturers. You just get a real good cross sections of people who deal with the code, not a handful like we have here.

I agree with our code in principle, I think is as a good safe code, but it could be so much better with respects to new material, methods, more options for contractor, owners and everyone involved.

The polyB pipe was a little before my time too, but my understanding is the crimping tool needed very frequent calibration which was not done too well. We do have one development in town with polyB and not many problems to my knowledge.

I would also like to add, we are already in the International building code, residential code, mechanical code, fuel gas code. I think the plumbing code would be a good addition. BTW, the State does add amendments to every one of these codes.

[Redlantern]

I agree that there are things in the codebook that I don't neccesarily agree with and that some inspectors don't enforce. I haven't seen the national codebook but I worry that somethings I've seen travelers do will be allowed. Had to change a whole lot of no hub when I made the mistake of letting some guys from Louisianna go to town piping. Flat venting like you wouldn't believe.

[MNice]

I agree, however if a flat vent with a lav or fixture washing it down to keep it clean would not be to bad. As I said, the State amends every national code, so issues like that would be taken care of pretty easily. If you get a chance, take a look at one of the codes, you local jurisdiction may have a copy you code take a peek at. Technically, the State code, UPC & IPC are very, very close, i just like the format and the better structure of the book itself.

I don't agree with a lot of the code, but it's my job to enforce them. I think they are not doing a good service to neglect part of the code. I know it makes my job harder when a contractor says, "they don't make me do that in this town".

Have a great weekend Red, good discussion!!

[krinkle]

From what I have heard it was the insurance companies that wanted to do away with our MN code and go with a standard code across the country to help there business out. I like our code mostly because it works. If its not broke why fix it? I also like the idea of local people making decisions on our code and what ever local entity that may be influencing them over some national board and some real big money influencing their decisions.

So are "pipeless vents" better than running a vent pipe like we have been doing for ever? NO. Cheaper yes and they may work but not a better solution. The same can be said with waterless urinals.

Let them dummy up our plumbing code some more and see what happens. The big box stores and internet have all ready done a great of putting the tools and materials in the hands of people that some of them Im amazed they know how to use a toilet let along put one in. Keep our code strict and strong and threw the trickle down effect even MN's poorest plumbing may have a chance of standing up to the test.

[WallEYES]

MNICE AND LANTERN.....Well said....AAV'S were allowed for maybe 3 weeks a few years ago by the state and then sent out e-mails to local juristictions and repealed that decision to outlaw their use....I am also a plumbing and mechanical code official in a TC suburb and had a plumbing/mechanical business for 15 plus years... my take on our plumbing code.....it's old and outdated mainly with sizing of Drain Waste and Vent systems and water pipe sizing due to the inception of low flow faucets and fixtures....toilets lavatories,flush valves ect. Our current code sizing for drain waste and vent for toilets/water closets is based on 7-10 gallons per flush..... I don't see our state code changing any time soon because of the union/good o'l boy attitude.....just my 2 cents...great topic... Jeff give me a call sometime and go wet a line

[Redlantern]

Guess I don't see the connection between the union and the code.

[MNice]

I'm not sure you want to know the history of this. Our state code was highly influenced by the Minne/Stpaul boys, more labor intensive, more money. Getting better now, but in "the good old days" they fought heavily against things like, ABS, PVC even as recently as PEX.

[krinkle]

Our code heavily influenced by union members? You better believe it but who better was there to do the job? Did some of what they wrote in there create additional work? Yes, but I highly doubt it was the main reason they wrote it that way. If it did create work it did not just do it for the union. It did it for all plumbers. In my book more work is a good thing. Wish I had more right now.

I would say those good old boy union guys you refer to did a fine job of creating a plumbing code that works very well and helps maintain a pretty decent standard of plumbing in our state. As a building official Im surprised you would want to get away from it. How would a new code make things better for you? All you do is look at the plumbing. What do you care how long, how much it cost or how much work it takes to put it in? You should be happy it gets done to the standard it does today. Allowing some flat vents and mechanical vents and waterless urinals is not going to improve our code. You should be happy that those good old boys wrote into our code about plumbing inspections. There is some work they created that maybe we dont really need. Most of us plumbers have far more training than the inspectors that look over our shoulders.

Im a nonunion plumber but in my book those good old union boys can keep working on that code. Maybe this has been passed but I did hear those good old and not so old union boys got it passed that all MN plumbing inspectors need to be licensed plumbers now.

This is a good conversation. It even got me to say something positive about the union.

[krinkle]

Hear is a little history about our code. Bub L. was a major influence on our MN plumbing code. He was a member of local 15 for ever. He was involved with training I bet almost 40 years or more of plumbers in the metro area including my father and myself. He also worked under my grandpa for many years as his apprentice. MN is lucky to have a person like this take interest in our states plumbing code and welfare. After spending many hours in his class at Dunwoody I would bet Bud did not compromise our code because there was a quicker or cheaper way to do something.

[Archerysniper]

I just had to lay off Buds Grandson two weeks ago lack of work. When I went through Bud had retired and tryed to quit teaching but couldn't give up he gave me my rpz certification class. + look for the minnesota illistrated code book guess who wrote it, man we need mre people like him. Anyone see a waterless urinal installed I did last week thier were four of them and they are nasty, you think a normal one stinks they smell like roses compaired to these, the trough urinals at the dome smell better then them I'm glad these things didn't get written in.

[Archerysniper]

Guess I don't see the connection between the union and the code.

Me either

[opsirc]

I the jurisdiction I work in, we have CVPC in homes for 15+ years, no problems. If you remember the polybutylene pipe, keep in mind, it is still in the state plumbing code, and can still be used. Most of the polyb problems was from bad installations, not a bad product, as is the case for many item's.

I am not a plumber, but would have to agree. I have had CPVC lines in my house for 20 years, no leaks. Plus I have seen two houses safed from total destruction by fire when the lines melted and put out the fire.

and maybe a bad question, but if the AAVs are not allowed by state code, why are they allowed to sell them here in minnesota, plus looked at the code and could not find anything about them. did I miss it.

[krinkle]

The Flow guard gold CPVC seems to be pretty decent stuff. There used to be some stuff that did not glue together very well. Think a lot of this was a 2 step method to join the fittings and most likely not done properly. Now CPVC valves should be banned or at least the inspectors should be shown each is in working condition after installation. Many are stuck open or the seats are messed up by the glue. Repairing a live system can be a pain to when having to leave the water off for long periods of time so the glue can set. We let it set for a day or longer. The home owners need to sign a waiver if they want it on sooner. Most of our repairs are on replacing the valves. There are huge developments near our shop full of cpvc valves just waiting for us to come work on them.

Just had a call from a customer this morning where her insurance company is making her install a anti leak shut off valve on the water main for her house. She has had 3 claims from broken brass fitting on pex water lines. The shut off valve is going to cost her roughly $1500 and then she still has bad piping to deal with.

Its not just AA valves that are sold in the stores. There is lots and lots non code approved items sold there. I think even some of the pex piping systems sold at the big box stores is not code approved. Who is to say you are not taking the stuff out of state and using it. Maybe its going in a model home or trailer.

[Redlantern]

Are you sure it was the unions that fought it so hard or maybe some of the copper and soil pipe manufacturers.

[MNice]

Krinkle, I am a master plumber, was in plumbing ,heating & gas for 15 years before this. Because of my trade, that's why I would like a new code. The technical aspects are so close it'd shock you, the organization & layout of the book is 100% better, more current listings, more current materials. As I stated before, our State amends ALL the code it adopts, building, mechanical, gas, so doing the same to the plumbing would not be a big deal.

As far as leaks, they've been around for years, back in the 80's, Chicago valves had a bad batch and I replaced tons of them, many flooded house and ticked off owners. Just like the brass fittings with pex, made overseas.

BTW, waterless urinals will be in the next revision.

There is some talk about inspectors being licensed, just not done yet.

[WallEYES]

I'm not going to get in an arguement here, I was stating my opinion on the unions and the good ol boy attitude....I know Mr. Lichlighter also....he helped me pass my Minneapolis master plumbing test, which was influenced by the unions, now given by an independent source with no involvement with unions? The big box stores sell all kinds of non code items because what ever is not legal in this state might be legal in another state that has such store. I too like MNICE have a master plumbers licence for the this state and also in Arizona and Colorado. The plumbing code does not address AAV'S specifically, but nif you look at section 4715.0200 subpart I, where it talks about basic plumbing principles and venting

[Surface Tension]

Gee-whiz guys lets get along.

opsirc, see what you started .