Line Twist with Mono...GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Deitz Dittrich]

Who ME???????? its a tough life..

I must admit, there are a few saturdays I take off to work in the garden.. Lakes get a bit busy and I feel guilty sore mouthing the fish for the weekend warriors.

[traveler]

I agree with Deitz (although I'm not so lucky to fish most days!) Many, many years with mostly spinning gear w/mono and virtually no twist issues, unless I do something dumb.

i.e. try to fish leeches on a slip bobber without a swivel...that'll do it:)

and yeah, I've always closed the bail by hand.

[Gordie]

DD brings up a great point I also go one step farther when spooling my line I heard about it and now I try and do this every time when I spool the line onto the reel the spool of line goes into a bucket of water or even the lake. be careful and try and not lose the spool if your doing it a lake but this works great for me with mono I think that the line is lubercated by the water and there is just enough tension put on the line by the water so you are not pinching down on the line as hard spooling it dry hence a bit of line twist already started. Has work very well for me with light mono and I havent had near the problems with line twist as before this.

Good Luck RRR

[Superduty]

I agree with Deitz. Don't know about the physics behind the madness, but manually closing the bail and pulling the line tight has always worked for me. I rarely get line twist unless I'm using flourocarbon on a spinning reel. I can hand my son (8 years old) one of my spinning rods that has worked twist free for weeks. He doesn't close the bail and pull the line tight despite my attempts to teach him otherwise. He will wreck a spool of line (even braid) in a few hours.

[sconnyslayer]

avoiding line twist is all about how you spool the line onto the reel, as well as properly maintaing the line while it is on your reel. this involves making sure you close the bail with your hand and pulling the line tight.

[Loose]

I am still trying to figure why it makes a difference if you close the bail with your hand???

[Deitz Dittrich]

Try to figure all you want.. it does.. not a ton, but about 1/2 twist per cast.. its the same as reeling against the drag.. ooooofda you can end up withe a mess with just one fish.

[Loose]

I know reeling against the the drag pulling out twists line but never ever had a problem with not hand closing the bail.

[bobbymalone]

I used to never close the bail by hand and didn't have really bad line twists. I did have problems with a little loop that would stick off the side of the reel that would get twisted on itself and eventually create a birds nest. Just had to pull out a bunch of line and untangle it to fix the problem. Closing the bail by hand keeps the line tight on the roller and prevents that little loop from sticking out, that's what they showed on MN bound.

I think that you guys that aren't getting it are thinking about the kind of throw your line away twists that you get from something like using some sort of spinning lure like a spoon without a swivel or that coiling mess that happens with new (or cheap) line until it "sets" into the reel. Closing the bail by hand isn't gonna fix that but it will prevent that little twisted loop I was talking about above.

Also, +1 for using high quality mono. cheap stuff isn't worth the trouble. The thicker and stiffer the line the more prone to twists. I don't go above 8lb on a spinning reel.

[Loose]

I used to never close the bail by hand and didn't have really bad line twists. I did have problems with a little loop that would stick off the side of the reel that would get twisted on itself and eventually create a birds nest. Just had to pull out a bunch of line and untangle it to fix the problem. Closing the bail by hand keeps the line tight on the roller and prevents that little loop from sticking out, that's what they showed on MN bound.

That I agree with

[PerchJerker]

Closing the bail by hand keeps the line tight on the roller and prevents that little loop from sticking out

That "little loop" is a twist put in your line, and that twist got put there when you reeled to close the bail if the line wasn't tight.

[bobbymalone]

That "little loop" is a twist put in your line, and that twist got put there when you reeled to close the bail if the line wasn't tight.

no argument there, but that little twist is different than a big ball your line up throw it away kind of twist that the OP is talking about.

[BobT]

Quote:

That "little loop" is a twist put in your line, and that twist got put there when you reeled to close the bail if the line wasn't tight

Since the bail doesn't contact the line before it closes, how does it twist the line? The bail is just spinning around on its own totally oblivious of the line.

[rmb]

i think this is an easy way to picture what is going on. by reeling to close the bail the line comes in contact with wire part of the bail that is traveling at a right angle to the line itself. in essence it is moving tangential to the outside radius of the line thus having the potential to roll it. with little to no load on the line to resist twist there may be enough friction to roll the line until the line comes to rest in the correct position on the bail roller.

basically you are running a wire across the line at a 90 degree angle and asking the line to slide across the wire without rolling. if you believe the line/bail wire interface has a coeffecient of friction of zero then yes it could not roll the line. if you believe the contact between the bail wire and line has some level of friction then the line has two choices one is to roll creating a twist or two the line has to have enough internal strength to overcome the friction and not twist. basically you either believe there is friction or you don't. on paper draw a circle (this represents the line)then draw a vector (straight line that is the bail wire) tangential to the circle. Now assume the vector has some force (for simplifaction some velocity). summation of forces in this freebody diagrahm would have to equal zero for there to be no twist. meaning the moment created in the the line would have to be equal to the summation of forces on the line, trying to roll/turn the line.

i wouldn't think it would create a lot of twist (with such a low coeffecient of friction) but a 1/4 or 1/2 turn on each cast cold result in a lot of twist in a day or a few weeks of fishing.

one caveat if the bail were timed perfectly and the line always fell exactly onto the roller without ever contacting the wire part of the bail then everything above would be irrelavent.

[jwmiller33]

i think this is an easy way to picture what is going on. by reeling to close the bail the line comes in contact with wire part of the bail that is traveling at a right angle to the line itself. in essence it is moving tangential to the outside radius of the line thus having the potential to roll it. with little to no load on the line to resist twist there may be enough friction to roll the line until the line comes to rest in the correct position on the bail roller.

basically you are running a wire across the line at a 90 degree angle and asking the line to slide across the wire without rolling. if you believe the line/bail wire interface has a coeffecient of friction of zero then yes it could not roll the line. if you believe the contact between the bail wire and line has some level of friction then the line has no choice to but to either roll creating a twist or the line has to have enough internal strength to overcome the friction and not twist. basically you either believe there is friction or you don't. on paper draw a circle (this represents the line)then draw a vector (straight line that is the bail wire) tangential to the circle. Now assume the vector has some force (for simpilifaction some velocity). summation of forces in this freebody diagrahm would have to equal zero for there to be no twist. meaning the moment created in the the line would have to be equal to the summation of forces on the line, trying to roll/turn the line.

i wouldn't think it would create a lot of twist (with such a low coeffecient of friction) but a 1/4 or 1/2 turn on each cast cold result in a lot of twist in a day or a few weeks of fishing.

one caveat if the bail were timed perfectly and the line always fell exactly onto the roller without ever contacting the wire part of the bail then everything above would be irrelavent.

well said! i stand behind my theory of closing the bail manually helps eliminate line twist

[BobT]

Your theory has a flaw. In order for the friction between the wire and the line to roll the line as you say, it would have to overcome the friction between the line and the rod's line guides plus the line and the water. I would like to see that happen. Not buying it.

[rmb]

BobT, i think your assumption has a flaw. here's why, you are assuming that for the line to twist, or in your hypothesis to not twist, that the line is so stiff that it has to move as one monolithic structure.

in other words it's so stiff that either it all moves or none of it moves. let's put that to the test take a 18 inch piece of line (roughly the distance to the first eye on a rod) (total rough guess, no rod handy at my desk) and hold it rigidly in one hand now roll the other end in your other hand. will the line rotate and twist? of course it will but the fixed end never rotated. in your hypothesis it couldn't do that. the water and eyes of the rod would act as the rigid mount and not allow the twist. Bob you are correct that water and guides will keep some of the line from twisting but this in no way restrains another section of a very limp structure from rotating. actually if we knew the coeffecient of friction of all of the different elements and the internal stiffness of the particular line it would be a pretty easy and fun calc to determine the length of line that would twist before the summation of forces would equal zero and no additional twist could occur.

now one could contend that the water would then pull this micro twist in a short section of line right back out once it was under tension and it likely would except it is now locked in place on the reel by the first 1/4 to 1/2 turn of the crank that occured immediately after the bail closed and you stopped reeling. this twisted section of line is no longer in free space as it is wrapped tightly on the spool unable to realign with the rest of the free line.

I still like my theory.

[BobT]

Assuming a worse-case scenario, let's assume the line is for all practical purposes glued to the bail during this motion and the friction between the line and the first rod guide is absolute. We both know this is not true but let's just make this assumption for the sake of argument. The amount of rotation from the time you start cranking on the reel handle to the time the bail closes will be no more than one revolution. I have never seen or heard of a spinning reel to which this would not be true. In this worse-case scenario you could get one revolution of twist in a section of line that measures the distance from the reel to the first line guide. This would be about 20" give or take.

In order for the twist to be a problem for the fishing line, it would have to remain in the line and somehow eventually extend the full length of any exposed line off the spool. Otherwise, at first opportunity it will unravel back to its normal state the moment the retaining friction is released, because there exists in the line a counter-twist resistance.

Let's assume that the twist you refer to is placed on the reel spool and in a worse-case scenario each of your subsequent casts were shorter than the last so you don't expose the previous twists to unraveling. Now what you've got is a series of short 20" sections of line that have been twisted. The only way this theory is plausible is if each subsequent cast got shorter and shorter so the twists would be trapped on the spool.

I'll let everyone else judge if this is a realistic cause for line twisting.

How about we test your theory. I haven't actually done this so maybe your results will provide some credibility to your theory.

*Take a piece of string.

*Fasten one end to a stationary object approximately 20" from a table top and let the other end lay on the table. For this experiment the coefficient of friction between the table top and the string will be much greater than the bail to the line for a number of reasons but I suspect my point will be made.

*Place a finger against the string near the point where you have it anchored and rotate your finger around the string. It's important to note here too that the friction between your finger and the string will be considerably higher than the bail to the line.

*Make note of how far the string twisted.

*Now let go with your finger and tell us if the string unwinds whatever twists happen to be there.

I'm going to guess first, that the sting didn't twist well enough to be noticed and second, that if it did twist it will immediately unwind when you remove your finger. Granted, your theory suggests that the action of the bail closing will trap the twist and I can see what you're saying but here's the kicker. There's a very good chance that within the next couple casts the twisted section will be exposed to air and this will allow it to unwind just like the string.

[BobT]

I propose that even if the test mentioned above proves me wrong and this is one way to twist line, show me the evidence that would dispute the line twisting many more times every time you reel it in simply because the bail is twisting the line as it wraps it onto the reel. In other words, closing the bail by hand is a moot point simply because when you reel in the line you place a revolution of twist with every revolution of the bail.

[traveler]

this is great reading guys...but my head hurts now:(

it still comes down to "does closing the bail by hand help?" and I think most of us agree it does.

Whatever the reason:)

[jwmiller33]

Bobt-so i assume you close the bail by reeling? and never have problems with line twist?

[BobT]

Absolutely. I use 8# Trilene XL on one reel and 8# Fireline on the other. I may have to run my line behind the boat once a summer to straighten it if I've been casting jigs a lote on a few consecutive outings. Just came back from a 5-day fishing trip to Canada and that's all we did was cast and retrieve jigs tipped with minnows from dawn to dusk and I still haven't got any line twist issues.

Line twist will come primarily from reeling and more so from cranking while a fish is taking out line against your drag. Closing the bail by cranking? I'm not that gullible.

Until I read this thread I had never heard of this before. The amount of twist if any at all that may come from the open bail is so minimal that it's hardly worth mentioning. I personally think those that believe this are reaching and I just might have a few acres of forest to sell east of Bismark for those that are interested. I'd have to see hard evidence for myself before I'll be convinced.

[rmb]

BobT, nobody is claiming this method of imparting twist is the primary reason for twisted line but does it have the potential absolutely. for any system to remain motionless, (in this case not twist) the laws of statics must be satisfied meaing summation of forces in all axis and directions must equal zero (not my theory darn laws of physics). in your example you are mixing two different types of motion and trying to blend them into one. first one is the revolution of bail. this equals one revolution of the line about the spindle axis but not one revolution about the line axis. you can't mix the two because for the motion we are looking at they do not share the same axis. you need to think in angular velocity/motion at the interface of the bail wire and the outside radius of the line.

your worst case assumption of the bail being glued to the line is actualy not a worst case. in that scenario you are not imparting a rotation about the axis of the line since you have now restrained it from twisting by glueing it in place. you are just wrapping the line about the bail axis.

the action of wrapping the line will impart it's own style of twist since the inside edge of the line and outside edge of the line are being wrapped around the spool but having to cover different distances due to the thickness of the line creating a slightly different diameter. just like your original hose rolled up on a rim example from page 1. perfect example of this.

now on to how this twist could get probigated through the line is a bit more tricky but here goes. you have a stored amount of potential energy that is in the line due to the twist being locked in place by the spool but can't be turned into kenitic energy since the friction on the line from reel guides and water are restraining our system when the system is at rest (meaning you are not reeling). so the only way for our system to become balanced is for this kenitic energy to be constanly stored along some length of line. this length will vary depending upon the elastic properties (youngs modulous) of the line. now we set the system in motion by reeling in some line. the twist will want to move along the line moving away from the fully restrained reel. theoretcially as you reel all the way in it will reach the tip. in the real world and considering the real ratios you will most likely reel faster than the line can go back into it's natural state and may very likely never reach the end of the line. in which case some may come out on the next cast or it may not have enought time before it is restrained again by the water.

now on orders of magnitude this is very very tiny compared to the twist that is imparted by other means but is it still a mechanism, yep. all spinning reels will twist line period. they twist line going on and untwist line going off. the problems arise when the amount of twist coming onto the reel is not matched by the amount of untwist in the line coming off of the reel and the system is no longer in balance.

i'm sure most people are completely bored with this but as an engineer by trade i am pretty fascinated by silly little exercises in physics like this.

here is another silly little physics question that we give to a lot of engineering students. you place a plane that can produce infinite thrust on a moving belt (treadmill)that can move infinitely fast in the opposite direction of the planes desired motion. will the plane ever take off?

[Loose]

here is another silly little physics question that we give to a lot of engineering students. you place a plane that can produce infinite thrust on a moving belt (treadmill)that can move infinitely fast in the opposite direction of the planes desired motion. will the plane ever take off?

I would have to say yes, the jet isnt powering the tires on the the treadmill the thrust is coming out the back of the jet, it shouldnt care what the wheels are doing.

[bobbymalone]

here is another silly little physics question that we give to a lot of engineering students. you place a plane that can produce infinite thrust on a moving belt (treadmill)that can move infinitely fast in the opposite direction of the planes desired motion. will the plane ever take off?

No. The lift required to get a plane off the ground comes from air moving around the wings and in this example there would be no air moving across the wings. Thrust just keeps the plane moving in a forward direction and would be negated by the treadmill belt.

I would think that if you put a plane head on in takeoff speed wind it would lift off the ground even if the engines were off, it just wouldn't move forward.

What's the answer?