Inform large fishing tackle companies

[Kingfisher]

Last weekend I purchased some fishing equipment, in a tackle box was a questionnaire, the last question was "which is your favorite fishing magazine"? I put down fishingminnesota.com. I believe whenever the opportunity presents itself, we should bring to the attention of these large companies the populatity of fishingminnesota. This may alert them to begin spending more of their advertising dollars towards fishingminnesota.

[CrappieJohn]

Hey Kingfisher..what a cool idea! When you stop and think about how many different things we buy that contain the same sort of questionaires, we all could really boot this sight ahead quite nicely and most of those cards require no postage. Nobody is out anything but five minutes. Again... great idea! Crapster

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Sure life happens- why wait

[This message has been edited by CrappieTom (edited 04-19-2003).]

[Rick]

Kingfisher, Crappie Tom and others out there. I appreciate the idea and we can use all the help we can get.

Thanks you so much for the thought.

[Deemo]

yup ... the mags teach me little. the site just tells it like it is.

[Guest]

I know for a fact that several major tackle groups monitor the WWW for chatter on tackle. You can bet they eyeball FM.com daily.

They have special "Information Techs" that eyeball forums and see what anglers up to. I personally suspect they are more valuable to the tackle industry now then "Pro Tournament Anglers"?

The WWW scares the bajerbers out of the traditional mass media advertisers. They have trouble getting traditional advertising to apply, and to conform to the web. This is changing but it is changing in ways that the old mass publicists are not too happy with.

The "Information Age" has changed advertising, they are trying hard to find out just how.

People are less likely to believe a pretty add then before. They want info, and lots of it.

Folks shop by comparison far more then before. They check, cross check, snoop, read up on, ask others on the web what is what, then maybe buy. Traditional magazine advertising has it's limitations when confronted with this.

Advertising drives the industry, yet the wallets of billions of anglers drive the advertising game. Anglers carry them wallets, so who is the best indication of what needs to be done?

I see big changes in the next 5-10 years in advertising and how the tackle manufactures strategist plan their sales.

Yup, I agree, let them know where you get your info, that is pure gold to them folks.

[Kevin Turner]

You guys are right on point! Although I pale in size of the Mega Corps, I scan the web sites every day, looking for feedback & info on all boating related topics. FM by far has the most diverse array of topics and posters.

[Shorelunch]

I'm a media planner (place & negotiate advertising for clients) in Minneapolis. I've done work for outdoor/recreation companies, consumer and business-to-business. I honestly (and un-biasly) believe that print, TV, outdoor and radio advertising lay the foundation for internet and word of mouth advertising. We're still figuring out ways to maximize the Internet and websites like this are a great example - especially if "true" users are talking about and recommending products in chat sessions. Frequently you see a product (i.e. a new lure or fishing line) being talked about after the user saw the ad on TV or in print. They work hand-in-hand. I whole hearedly agree that this and other fishing websites are fabulous for information sharing - and advertising.

[Rick]

Well put from a PRINT MEDIA perspective. Many of the BEST ANGLERS and CONSUMERS never get their say in print media.

The fact remains, print media is in the beginning stages of a struggle for subscribers and advertisers. I would expect you to present your opinion the way you have, kwkfsh.

Bottom line is, the information people are looking for can be found on the Internet. They no longer have to pay for Print Media to get their packaged information. You and I both know, all media will need to change because of the Internet. Unfortunately for some advertisers, old marketing habits that were successful die hard.

A few select Advertisers are becoming more Internet savvy and realize they don't have to spend a lot of money on other traditional media to get their new product information out there. Those introductions can be had right here.

To other media, that can indeed be scary.

While true it can be very effective to use multiple media platforms, Internet savvy advertisers are quickly realizing they can get a more potent message out there using proven Internet Content sites, and get much more bang for their buck.

I won't go into branding, which is what traditional media relies on, but will just say "It's all about the information and quality of that information". Branding alone no longer cuts it, unless you're Pepsi or Coke.

Also, our advertisers would disagree with you on how effective, especially cost effective, Internet advertising to outdoor users really is.

It flat out brings the information about products and services to the people who will benefit from it most - The FM Family

The FishingMinnesota.com members are a loyal bunch and they do indeed recognize those who sponsor this site as quality providers interested in helping provide all the interactive information members ask for.

The part that really tells us all how effective advertising here is - the advertisers on board here are also very loyal to FishingMinnesota.com.

Imagine having this discussion in another type of media outlet.

[pikehunter]

Shorelunch:
You took the words right out of my mouth. Marketing campaigns are integrated for a reason -- very often the advertsing venues relate to and benefits from each other.
Oh, by the way ... I'm a Public Relations major with a Marketing minor graduating in three weeks. How does one get into you line of work?

[Rick]

Shorelunch,
as a media planner you are biased based on past experience. We all are. While past experience can be heplful and needed, it does not always lead you to the best. It just gives you the basis for an opinion.

Here's the dilemma for those who run Interactive Internet Content sites:
Why in the world would someone pay for something they can get for free or by putting their own time into it.

For example, if you follow this site you will see all the FREE advertising Gander Mountain gets. Why would they pay for it when they get it all free. Believe me, the Gander folks use it well. Same with with many other products, services, and outlets.

So we are faced with the options of either limiting that free advertising and subsequently the free exchange of information or going out of business and again limiting the free exchange of information. or....

The absolute best way to solve the problem is for users of Internet Content sites to demand that those who are receiving free advertising, kick in their fair share to keep sites like these going.

So again, I thank Kingfisher and those like him who are actually helping in this quest.

[kwkfsh]

Rick, I know you think that my opinion is biased because I work for a print media company. However the websites that we have ( all of which are paysites ) have been averaging 2,999,316 page views per month so far during 2003. I also sell this internet advertising so if it was the best way to go I would be the first one admit it. I talk to many large and sucessful companys who spend millions of dollars a year in advertising. Most of them only devote a small percentage of their budget to internet advertising because they are unable to pull good demographics on who they are reaching. As I stated the internet as an industry needs to put together some standards as how to measure the demos in order to be able to sell effectivly to the companys that spend millions on advertising. This is a problem that I deal with on a daily basis so I understand it all to well. I have a couple of clients who advertise in over 100 different magazines and can tell you how much it costs in each one per call, per appt., and per sale. I have a fishing guide client who refuses to put his HSOforum in the ad because he feels it costs him bookings, he says he does much better by having people call him so he has a chance to talk to them. At the same time I have a very good friend with several lodges in Alaska and has mananged to be very sucessfull using nothing but the Internet. I did not say traditional media is the best nor did I say the internet was of no value. Since I sell both it is in the best interest of both myself and my client to place their media dollars where they will do the most good. For if I don't they will not be my client for long. As Shorelunch stated a good media campaign is composed of many different elements.

[kwkfsh]

Rick, I typed my previous post before I saw yours. I hope you do not take it to mean that I do not feel you are entitled to earn a living (I truly hope that this site makes you rich one day!) You have every right to expect that people who advertise hear pay there way. You know I believe this because I have paid you for a boat ad and have inquired re: advertising another product with you. I also feel that print media could be of value to you, and have offered you special pricing to try it and see how it could benefit you. I hope you are able to make a fortune with this site, but as I am sure you know getting rich quick is a lot of darn work!!!

[Rick]

No offense taken. Not even in the slightest.

As for getting rich, it sure doesn't look like that is in the cards. You are absolutely right, it's very hard to make a living providing this kind of service.

I may eventually be able to make a decent living at it when folks realize how effective it really is for them.

Believe me, the ones who are on board as sponsors already have a very good taste. They would prefer their competitors never figure it out.

[Shorelunch]

This is great! How often do I get to talk shop and fishing together.

Actually, I'm very unbiased, but advertisers are not. Right now, industry experts in all faucets, agree a intergrated program is best, if budgets allow. Actually, I believe print and Internet are very similar - with similar problems. For example, take a major multi-species fishing mag. They have articles that mention a company's product in the article, whether or not that company takes advantage of advertising. If they did take advantage (especially with a good ad schedule), the impact of the article and the ad is many times greater. Same goes for Gander and your HSOforum. They'd have a much greater impact with their/user posts while incorporating banners or an interactive forum, etc. However, Gander also uses TV, print and radio. Word of mouth is great (and positive for most advertisers) for everyone, but you have to get that word in their mouth first!

Droves of anglers are going to the web for info. It's attracting anglers 50 and under very well. If I was currently doing a, outdoors company's media plan, I'd definitely being giving you a call to talk. There are some great tapped and untapped opportunities here and elsewhere.

The fishing/outdoor industry is a great category because people want to go fishing (and have good equipment). For most, it's a passion or at least there favorite hobby. It's far different than selling dish soap. The outdoors category is not alone in the ever-changing media landscape. We're all trying to incorporate the best ways to reach our audience and the Internet is growing into one of the better ways to do so - especially when integrated. The Internet is and will have some growing pains and we both need to work together advertisers and websites to find the best means to effectively reach our audience.

[Rick]

I agree with you shorelunch. You hit the nail on the head.

I do Thank God for sending sponsors like Kevin Turner (River Pro Boats) our way. It's sponsors like him and the others here that make this site and discussions like this possible.

It doesn't hurt that Kevin is a class act as well.

[guideman]

Hello gentelmen,
As a small business owner with a small
budget for advertising, I need results.
Fast talking ad guys and numbers about
everything from soup to nuts just don't impress me, only results.

My guide business increased almost 40% the first year I was internet active.
FM.com has been a major player in that success and I'll continue with Rick as long as he'll have me.

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Terry "Ace" Sjoberg
Ace guide service.
aceguideservice.com
218-753-2612
[email protected]

[kwkfsh]

Much ado has been made about the great info made on the web. I made a comment earlier today " The biggest problem with the vast amount of info on the web is that so much of it is either not accurate or skewed subjectivly by the author " Just 5 min. ago I received my May issue of Outdoor Life. You should see what world renowned shooting expert Jim Carmichel wrote about web advice in his column on page 30. Wheeew!!!

[CrappieJohn]

Backwater....just this morning I received an e-mail from a marketor (?) who wanted to know where I purchased and got wind of a certain brand of twister tail that does a good job of helping to fill my crappie- tackle satchel. It is good to have the interaction between people who use something with really good success and people who may become better anglers by learning and trying something new. I think the honesty on this sight is a real benefit to it and the way the site is set up to pretty much take care of the b.s. that I see on some other sites.Someone ahead of me said that we"tell it like it is" and I try hard to do that, sometimes, though, without giving up absolute specifics. It sure made me feel good to get a mail such as the one I got this morning and I think this site is the reason I got it. Thanks FM... Crapster

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Sure life happens- why wait

[Kevin Turner]

Kwikfish & Rick, Thank you! Yesterday, I received an order from South Dakota. As always, I asked how he found out about my product. His reply, Kwikfish's media outlet (I'll let Kwik tell where he works if he likes)and fishing MN web Chat. He told me positive feedback on the forums helped him to decide on my boat. So would I've received the order with out both outlets? Who knows, but I'm A happy camper.

[Shorelunch]

One more thing - and, I believe, the most important.

Let's say I'd like to buy a new fishing rod. I read a fishing magazine and see ads for Loomis, St. Criox, Shimano and Berkley. Then I watch the Saturday shows and see ads for Shimano and Berkley. Then I go to all the companies websites to gather information and also go to Fishing MN to see what Backwater Eddy and the rest of the tribe think of my choices. Their posts lean towards St. Criox and Loomis. As I'm planning to head out the door to Bob's Tackle shop, I see the Sunday ad for Gander - they have a sale. I hop in the truck to Gander.

For the most part, one of two things will happen:
1) Walk to the rods and a Gander Guide approaches me with the normal stuff. I'm looking at either the Loomis, St. Criox, Shimano and Berkley - leaning towards the Loomis and St. Criox. The St. Criox rep was in last week and did his job and the Gander Guide points me in the way of the St. Criox.
2) Walk to the rods with no help from the Gander Guide. After gauging from my influences and experiences above I decide to Loomis and get the free hat to boot.

There's many variations to the scenerios of course, but the bottom line is that the company, ad agency, distributors, reps etc. all need to be on their toes to get the sale. Plus, advertising also effects many salespeople and distributors, too. There are many influencers and it's advertisings' and the advertisees' job to work together for the best possible effort.

[Kevin Turner]

Hey, I wrote my last post before I saw Ricks post regarding me. Aaaww-shucks... Thanks...

[Aquaman01]

I'm out of my depth here, being that I have only a diletante's knowledge of advertising, but I have a little something to say, and since this isn't print media, nobody can stop me.

I subscribe to 3 fishing mags. One is a promotional, one is a club perk, and one is a regional newspaper. I'm barely a print customer.

I don't have a TV that's set up to get commercial programming. I haven't seen a commercial in 3 months.

I rarely listen to commercial radio because the twin cities market is spoiled.

I have DSL. My weather, news, and library are all right here on this desk. I have radios for entertainment.

I don't know what the 2003 Jaguar looks like, or what the theme song for Chevy's quarterly ad campaign might be. I can, however, tell you that Vexilar, River Pro, and Scenic Tackle are all sponsors or this site.

I'm not a solitary freak, either. Most of my friends are without TV and we have great conversations that have nothing to do with TV shows.

I've spent approximately $600.00 on fishing since Feb. 1, based entirely upon word of mouth, and research. There will be more spent, as well.

An internet user isn't a typical point-of-sale customer - we are into researching our purchases. We're information junkies and with a few exceptions i'm sure, at least make enough money to have computers in their homes.

The people who get paid to try to figure out where, when, why and how I am going to spend my money have long since forgotten that I am not just a piece of market share. Those little survey cards always make me think of Hannibal lector rejecting the questionaire upon Clarice's first visit -

"Do you really think you can dissect me with that blunt little tool?"

Rick's right about the loyalty we have for this site. I moderate at another fishing site, and I won't even cross-quote an ice-out report that I saw on FM, much less have the audacity to plug anything here, or take this content over there. I want Rick and FishingMN to get every penny he has coming to him for any and all exposure that anybody gets on his site.

FishingMN is regional, and strong as The Mississippi because of that.

I'm getting back into angling from a 20 year hiatus, mostly for my children's sake, and this site has been invaluable to me. I started coming here to learn, now I come here to share what I learn, learn more, be a part of a community, and sound off on issues. Heck, I think I've even made some real face-to-face friends here.

Enough of this "what does FM mean to me" stuff, here's some marketing stuff I know -

The company I work for has a pathetic web presence and is downsizing. Our competitors have a strong web presence and they're hiring the people we have to lay off. Truth.

Thanks for letting me rant, Rick, and I plug FM whenever I get a chance.

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Aquaman
<')}}}}}><{
Peace and Fishes

[kwkfsh]

Backwater Eddy is right that manufacturers monitor the web for info as does every other sales driven organization in the world. I to a certain degree get paid to surf the web to research new fishing and outdoor products and to keep my eye out for new clients to place in traditional media. The biggest problem with the vast amount of info on the web is that so much of it is either not accurate or skewed subjectively by the author. I work in traditional print media and I can tell you one of the best places to get new clients is from websites as a large percentage of them have not achieved the results that they were hoping for with internet advertising. At the same time there are some advertisers who have done extremely well with an Internet presence. From an advertisers point of view the use of the web is somewhat of a wildcard as there is no way to tell exactly who and how many they are actually reaching. If they go to a magazine publisher they can get audited figures as to how many people will be reached the Internet currently has no such measurement tool. Traditional media can supply figures that would boggle your mind. Such as type of species fished for, days fished, amount spent on tackle and travel, type of boat owned, household income, average age, time spent reading each issue, all the way down to what you read, where you shop, what you own and what you plan to buy in the next 6 12 24 mos. This is something that the Internet as an industry is going to have to address to achieve great success with advertisers. With an Internet user there is no way to determine how long he will be around. At least a subscriber has paid for a certain time frame, which denotes a commitment on his part. There is not a large tackle manufacturer in the country that is going to spend money advertising in a place that would block out the ability to say that the product can be purchased at Gander Mountain or Galyan’s. The Internet is a truly wonderful and magical thing, which offers the gift of unlimited knowledge to all that choose to use it wisely!

[Toad]

In my mind, it's really the relative difference in how product evaluations are presented in print media (magazines) compared to those on quality websites (FishingMN.com) that should eventually become more notable to avertisers.

The difference is that in magazines, product evaluations typically only present the positive features, or simply, just a list of the features themselves-- just like reading a spec card. In other words, you merely get an objective overview. If negative features do in fact exist, you'll likely never hear about them in the pages of a magazine. While this helps from a strict informational standpoint, the fact remains, it doesn't really give prospective buyers the "real life" insight they're looking for in making a buying choice.

Worse even than this are blatant product plugs-- virtual infomercials-- by not only TV hosts, but also an increasing number of print outlets. Make no mistake, the commercialization of fishing has arrived. And I can tell you that as an outdoor writer looking to disseminate honest, unbiased inforation, that what fishing has become on many of these fronts admittedly turns the stomachs of many of us . . . (enough editorializing. )

But this is why sites like this remain so appealing, so refreshing to so many of us, and increasingly so. Product evals here reflect the real findings and opinions of a diversity of sesasoned anglers-- guides, outdoor communicators, and tournament as well as recreational fishermen. Although not every product on this site or any other outlet is always going to be of great quality, those that do perform well-- LakeMaster software, Scenic Tackle and RiverPro boats to name a few-- endure, and you'll hear lots of positives about them. In a sense, this is much like a 'Consumer Reports' for fishermen-- only it's a free service. If I'm an advertiser, particularly a new company or one trying to gain positive recognition via an inexpensive media buy, I'd definitely consider a site like this. What great publicity.

-a friend called Toad

[Shorelunch]

Toad hits a valid point. Virtually every time you read an article in a "leading multi-species fishing publication," the article references certain products more than others. While the articles are usually very informative, sometimes they slant towards an advertiser's product. I wouldn't call this a necesary evil, I would call it necessary. These/all publications need advertisers, of course, and need to have added value for their advertisers, but they do try to keep editorial and advertising seperate and point out relevant/quality products.

Same goes for TV fishing shows. If it wasn't for their advertisers support none of them would be on TV. Most TV fishing shows are essentially "infomercials" because their sponsors buy the airtime on the TV show, which the shows use to buy airtime on the network. Therefore, the shows really can't be very unbiased.

Websites are not alone - you need ad revenue too, and will do your best to promote your advertisers. This is how it works, especially in todays economy and corporate landscape.

These content and forum driven websites are fantasic means of information gathering for users (myself included). They are also an excellent tool in the advertising toolbox.