Garage Electric Outlet. Need your help

[soldoncass]

Dtro,

Sounds like you have a DIY electric in garage, at least I have never seen an electrician run it like you are saying...using a switch box as a junction box and running individual wires to each outlet. Now I am NOT an electrician, so take what I say with a grain of salt. IF you have the wires disconnected at the switchbox, test each wire individually...if the breaker is then turned on(safely)...you can determine which wire goes to the panel, and is HOT. Mark it ,and proceed to connect each wire to the hot one (one at a time), check each outlet...mark the wires/outlets. Sounds like you should have 5 wires in the switch/junction box (one for each outlet, and one hot,to the panel). My GUESS is there is only 4, cause the outlet by the house door was added, and fed from a gfci in the basement, that is tripped. I believe there has to be one in the basement, and that would have been the easiest to get to. CHECK THEM ALL! Usually the wall sheetrock is screwed on, and can be removed easily....then you can see how the wire gets to that dead outlet. I have a friend that was ready to call an electrician, cause some outlets didn't work......I had him check for gfci's tripped. That is all it was....he would have felt foolish to have an electrician come, ....to push a button. Check for SIMPLE things FIRST....GFCI's. Christmas lights going outside would be a prime candidate for tripping a gfci.

[Surface Tension]

How many switches in that box and did you check if one feed that outlet?

You tested and RESET all GFCIs in the house right?

Did you pull all the covers and receptacles off in the garage?

Trace all the wires in that box and label them as you go. You want them all accounted for.

Find out what is on that circuit, everything.

If you end up with a pair that is unaccounted and you are positive they aren't to a lawn light, motion detector, door bell, intercom, smoke alarm, or something weird that could be overlooked, it could be that suspect outlet.

If all wires are accounted for then I'd have a hunch that maybe that outlet was meant to be fed by another source but didn't get connected and is in a box somewhere.

Could be you have a junction box in the garage attic too.

IMO time to call an electrician.

[DTro]

No, I wouldn't say DIY gargage, as we bought the house new.

I've checked all GFCI's.

I finished and wired the entire basement myself so I know that nothing from down there goes into the garage.

I can't say for certain that one of the 4 pairs of wires in the swtich box is going to that outlet, just an educated guess, I didn't test them one by one.

Isn't it code for all garage receptacles to be on a GFCI circuit? The reason I ask is because there is a GFCI receptacle in the garage, but that only goes to an outside receptacle and that outside one is an end of run. So I cannot find where a GFCI would be powering this dead one.

I'll probably just cut a hole this weekend and try to trace to where its being powered from.

[BobT]

No, I wouldn't say DIY gargage, as we bought the house new.

I've checked all GFCI's.

I finished and wired the entire basement myself so I know that nothing from down there goes into the garage.

I can't say for certain that one of the 4 pairs of wires in the swtich box is going to that outlet, just an educated guess, I didn't test them one by one.

Isn't it code for all garage receptacles to be on a GFCI circuit? The reason I ask is because there is a GFCI receptacle in the garage, but that only goes to an outside receptacle and that outside one is an end of run. So I cannot find where a GFCI would be powering this dead one.

I'll probably just cut a hole this weekend and try to trace to where its being powered from.

If you have a supply run plus four circuits being supplied from that same device box plus a switch, unless this is a really big box, it sounds like overfill and not likely a professional job. Also, it would seem to be not very cost effective to branch out in four directions from one device box. Again, not sounding like a professional job. Of course, without actually seeing the work and understanding the project, I could be wrong.

At any rate, based on what you've posted so far, I'm really confused. It might be time to bring in an electrician to help out.

[DTro]

yeah, it's hard to explain without seeing it.

It's a double switch box. One switch is for outside garage lights, and the other is for foyer overhead light (tied to three way to another switch right by entrance door to garage).

So obviously I have power coming in from panel, this circuit is listed "foyer/garage" so that makes sense. Then I have power going out to external garage lights (#1), then one going to overhead foyer (#2), and then 2 others that go into the garage and tie in somewhere. When I had the wires disconnected, I powered the circuit back on and neither the garage door opener worked, or the other (previously working outlets).

I will probably try and trace those two.

I still think there is something easy I am missing. I have a small space under the stairs that was wired when the house was built, I'm looking there next. Mabye a hidden GFCI .....

[jerkbait]

No, I wouldn't say DIY gargage, as we bought the house new.

I've checked all GFCI's.

I finished and wired the entire basement myself so I know that nothing from down there goes into the garage.

I can't say for certain that one of the 4 pairs of wires in the swtich box is going to that outlet, just an educated guess, I didn't test them one by one.

Isn't it code for all garage receptacles to be on a GFCI circuit? The reason I ask is because there is a GFCI receptacle in the garage, but that only goes to an outside receptacle and that outside one is an end of run. So I cannot find where a GFCI would be powering this dead one.

I'll probably just cut a hole this weekend and try to trace to where its being powered from.

Yes it is. Maybe the breaker in the main panel is a GFCI or the garage outlets are run off of a bathroom GFCI. How many baths do you have? Did you check all the GFCI outlets in the entire house? I think there is a GFCI tripped somewhere that you are missing.

[jerkbait]

yeah, it's hard to explain without seeing it.

It's a double switch box. One switch is for outside garage lights, and the other is for foyer overhead light (tied to three way to another switch right by entrance door to garage).

So obviously I have power coming in from panel, this circuit is listed "foyer/garage" so that makes sense. Then I have power going out to external garage lights (#1), then one going to overhead foyer (#2), and then 2 others that go into the garage and tie in somewhere. When I had the wires disconnected, I powered the circuit back on and neither the garage door opener worked, or the other (previously working outlets).

I will probably try and trace those two.

I still think there is something easy I am missing. I have a small space under the stairs that was wired when the house was built, I'm looking there next. Mabye a hidden GFCI .....

Are the outlets in the Garage 15amp or 20 amp?

[DTro]

I think 15, but I'm not sure.

Something I didn't mention is that there is a subpanel in the garage with 2 breakers, but I have a 220 outlet and I'm almost positive that is what the subpanel is there for because I can turn both breakers off and everything works fine.

[Surface Tension]

I think 15, but I'm not sure.

Something I didn't mention is that there is a subpanel in the garage with 2 breakers, but I have a 220 outlet and I'm almost positive that is what the subpanel is there for because I can turn both breakers off and everything works fine.

Come'on Darren, stop dropping little clues now, would'ja. Or are you trying to stump us.

I'm done guessing. I'd call the builder and have him give you the name and number of the electrician so you can ask him.

[JohnMickish]

A 220volt receptacle and you have breakers, as in plural? This receptacle needs to be on one two pole breaker. If this is on "breakers" that is more evidence of a non professional job.

As far as does the garage need to be GFCI protected, that depends on when the house was built, or when the electrical permit was pulled to beat a code change.

So you have 4 romex conductors in the box, let me see if this will help

Set 1, power from the panel.

set 2, switch leg to outside lite

set 3, switch leg or travelers for foyer light

set 4, wire feeding garage, needs to be tied into set 1.

Set 2 and 3 will be coming off of one of the switches.

Is this it or is there more to the story?

[soldoncass]

"Only one wire in each outlet box", is one thing that throws me off.....that doesn't sound right. That would mean they are ALL "end of runs", no second wire to continue to feed another. The outlet by the house door (dead one), sounds like the oddball to me, is there an outside outlet by the front door nearby, or sump pump outlet in the basement under that house door? Either one could be protected by a GFCI outlet, and would have been original. I still put my $ on a GFCI problem....either tripped, faulty, or loose connection in one of those boxes (since it used to work).

[JohnMickish]

I've been holding this info back but years ago I worked for a company that did resi work, and in their houses they had us put a J-box in the garage attic and run individual romex runs to the receptacles, kind of like a spider. I thought it was weird to do it that way but they where paying me to do it so that's the way it was done. It's possible that is the case here.

[soldoncass]

That "spider" method is interesting....never seen that done. That would explain the "one wire per box" deal....but not the 2 wires going to garage. I don't understand the "dead" outlet not on a GFCI circuit, though, cause I think all the wall outlets had to be protected for quite a few years.(not sure about opener outlets) Someone could have changed that dead one from a gfci to regular one (maybe for a freezer?) I have seen some wierd stuff....sump pump outlet protected by garage gfci, inspecter tested garage outlet for tripping....DID NOT RESET.....basement flooded

DTRO, An access in garage could be your best bet...but I wouldn't recommend the attic ladder, because it is hard to insulate AND keep firerock where it is supposed to be.

[DTro]

Thanks guys, I didn't get a chance to mess with it at all this weekend. For a second, I thought I had an epiphany. I thought for sure there was a GFCI above the sump basket. But it turns out it was just a regular outlet, downstream of another GFCI I checked prior.

I did confirm that the subpanel has a double pole breaker running to the 220 outlet, but....there is a another 15A single pole breaker that I have no idea what it is powering. I couldn't trace it to anything in the garage, which is very strange I thought. I'm still perplexed about the dead outlet not being on a GFCI.

[JohnMickish]

When are you going to start taking the sheetrock off the garage?

[DTro]

Between work and fishing? Probably around Sept.

[soldoncass]

UMMMMMM...fishing is GOOD in Sept......and hunting starts then also. Better figure it out in the heat of the summer, or a rainy day.

With all this NEW info, here's my logic....if it was done professionaly, it gets inspected, and has to meet codes so it should make sense. One of the 2 wires going to garage feeds the lights, through the garage light switch...the other wire ,going to garage ,feeds the garage outlets, and ends up at the gfci by the outside door, and to the outside outlet.

The subpanel in the garage with the 220 double breaker (30 or 50 amp) should feed from the main panel and another double breaker there. The single breaker in that subpanel "could" go to your DEAD outlet for a freezer or refrig outlet (neither should be on a gfci), since it is by your house door. I would think it should have been on a 20 amp, but.......did you shut breaker OFF and BACK ON again? My logic may not match the original installers, but I'd sure find what the breaker controls, and make sure it is working. Good luck to you! (trouble shooting AND fishing)

[jeffreyd]

could hook the wires from the 15 am to the 220 and watch for the smoke. Then it would be easy to chase down. Just joking of course. There is nothing that i hate worse than a problem without a solution and one that is going to require tearing the house apart. Good luck, i think i would be fishing and not worrying too much about it especially if there are other outlets in the garage

[DTro]

Thanks soldoncass. Yes, it's a residential house that is about 10yrs old. I'm sure all inspections were done and it was done by a contractor hired by the builder. I'll do a little more checking at that subpanel.

[Eric Wettschreck]

Stick a voltmeter on the 110 breaker in the subpanel to see if there is voltage coming from it.

If not, possibly a bad breaker.

[DTro]

Well, there is current coming out of that breaker and there is no continuity between that pair of wires and the dead outlet.

[soldoncass]

That single pole breaker in the sub-panel has to go somewhere....maybe a yardlight that goes on and off by itself? (electric eye), or an outside shed?, or shallow well pump? If it goes to anything like that outside, the wire will go down, and underground to whatever it is powering. You should be able to find it outside near the sub-panel. If there is absolutely nothing there......it still could go to dead outlet, but have a broken wire somewhere.

You are doing a lot of work to find this, but just think of all you are learning about your house. It could come in handy in the future, so it wasn't all a waste of time.

[DTro]

I cannot find anything that circuit goes to. I do have a security light on the side of the garage controlled by a switch inside by the door, but that is on the same circuit as the rest of the garage. I’m stumped on that one now too.

Would I be able to get the schematic from the builder? It’s a pretty large metro builder (Novak Fleck).

I also cut a small peep hole up in the attic to evaluate the situation, and cutting a large access will be my next step, because everything is leading to a broken wire. We’ve had a few mice in the house. Will they chew through copper?

I hope to report success after the long weekend.

On a side note. My garage ceiling is drywalled up to about 6ft from the front. In other words there is an open area with exposed rafters in front. Would it be better to cut an access in that front wall and put a cabinet type door there, or cut one in the ceiling and box it in? Seems like the front access would be better, but maybe I’m missing something.

[jerkbait]

I don't think there is a junction box in the cieling, could be wrong, but the electrician that did our house in Becker in 1994( Novak Fleck also) ran to a GFCI outlet and the off from there. I know they used more than 1 electrical contractor also. As far as the access depends if you want the pull down ladder or not.

[soldoncass]

Dtro,

I have some questions before I can try to answer yours: Is your house a split-entry bi-level( front door goes to a landing, with about 7 steps up and 7 steps down to the only 2 levels)?....or is it a 3 or 4 level split-level house with more steps in the place? If it is a common bi-level house, there would be an open attic area above your ceiling, and the sheetrock was put like that to protect a beam and rafters that switch direction (for roof design purposes). However if you have a 3-4 level split-level house ,there could be a room up there over the garage space, that will cut down attic space drastically. If there is a truss beam up there (likely) there isn't much room to get an access through, so I would go through the ceiling,between rafters(22 1/2 "), frame it about 48 " long(minimum of 32"), wrap that hole with sheetrock about 2" wide(flush with the ceiling), and lay a piece of sheetrock on top of the wrap to maintain the firebreak. Insulation will lay on top of the sheetrock. If you go through the rafter wall and put a cabinet door there, the firebreak is compomised. You need to maintain that fire protection from house to garage space somehow.

Is the sub-panel in the unsheetrocked portion of the garage, or in the covered portion?

The builder may have a schematic, but I doubt it.(doesn't hurt to call) Some bigger builders do the same house over and over in different areas, so they have everything cut and dried for cost efficiency purposes. (again, doesn't hurt to call)

I've heard of gophers chewing through wires underground, but mice would surprise me. Squirrels could do it also....had any trouble with them?