Failing Mound System/Lawsuit

[MinnesotaMike]

Long story short.

My Dad had a mound system installed 14 years ago... it is failing. He had a couple contractors come out to look at it and it was not installed correctly thus the reason for the failure. Now he is looking at spending $8500 to install a new one.

I have some information on an alternative system and he took it to the court house to see if it was an option, of course the person he needed to talk to was gone and nobody else was able/willing to investigate if the new alternative would be ok'ed.

During the course of talking with the people at the court house he finds out that about 10,000 people have failing mound systems from the same contractor and he is still in business and there is nothing anyone can do. Further investigation reveals that the inspector didn't even sign off on the permit.

( they call he " drive by larry" ) or what ever his name is. And of course he is still an inspector with the city.

So, Is there anything he can do? He can not really afford $8500 on a septic right now.

Any input would be appreciated.

Mike

[jentz]

First of all if the inspector did not sign it off, it was illegal to hook up! and has been in illegal service since it was put in use.Who hooked it up? They should be held responsible.Not signed by a inspector means it doesn't meet requirements,something has to be done to meet those requirements and after compleation another inspection is required to pass or fail installation until all requirements are met.

[brmuskie]

Every licensed installer, designer, and inspector has a bond that you could try to collect on but...... If the system has been working for 14 years and doesn't work anymore, I can't see anyone being held responsible for that, there are too many variables to pinpoint one thing as causing the system to fail after 14 years without knowing specifics about this failure.

Just from what I read - your Dad will probably end up paying for a new system somehow. Check out if there are low interest loans available in your area or possibly some grants available for fixing systems. I would call the city and the county to ask about loans or grants. In some parts of the state there are AgBMP loans available at low interest for system upgrades.

[BobT]

I wonder how you know it was installed incorrectly. From what I hear, design standards change all the time as new ideas and theory are unveiled. It may have been designed correctly at the time but now no longer meets todays standard.

[CJH]

I would think that after 14 years, you aren't going to get very far.

If its a short time, then yes, but not over that period of time.

If you are serious about it, talk to a lawyer for an hour. Better yet, call the contractor and see what he says?

Hope things work out.

[MinnesotaMike]

:I wonder how you know it was installed incorrectly:

Simple things like every contractor to come out to quote it says it is installed incorrectly, not enouph dirt on top of the mound, no fabric on top of the rocks, simple things. I saw one pipe fitting that was held together by electrical tape.

I will let him know about the financing options.

Thanks for the replys, it was worth a shot.

Mike

[brmuskie]

If there was no fabric on top of the drainfield rock - you may be able to go after his bond to collect something but I wouldn't expect it to completely pay for a new system. At best I would hope to get half of the original cost of the system back since it only lasted half as long as it should have under normal conditions. It would cost you that much for an attorney if you need one so you are probably not going to get anything. Sorry - that sucks. I would also have a conversation with the MPCA enforcement person for he area of the State that you live in. At least you could make a complaint about the contractor and the enforcement person would put that in their file and if enough people complain, maybe something will be done about this jerk.

[WallEYES]

Statue of limitations on such work expires in 2 years....nothing he can do. Was this a new home? If it was why did the city issue a certificate of Occupancy if the septic system was not finaled by the inspector?

[brmuskie]

There is no statute of limitations that I am aware of for this type of work. The bond is in effect long after 2 years so I am guessing that there is good reason for that.

[Drew]

14 YEARS ON A MOUND SYSTEM - I WOULD CONSIDER YOURSELF LUCKY. IF YOUR BOUGHT A NEW CAR 14 YEARS AGO AND IT WAS JUST STARTING TO GIVE YOU PROBLEMS WOULD YOU COMPLAIN? I HOPE NOT. NOTHING LASTS FOREVER - PONY UP AND AND GET THE PROBLEM CORRECTED - QUIT BLAMING THE CONTRACTOR AND TRYING TO GET A FREE RIDE.

[Juneau4]

14 YEARS ON A MOUND SYSTEM - I WOULD CONSIDER YOURSELF LUCKY. IF YOUR BOUGHT A NEW CAR 14 YEARS AGO AND IT WAS JUST STARTING TO GIVE YOU PROBLEMS WOULD YOU COMPLAIN? I HOPE NOT. NOTHING LASTS FOREVER - PONY UP AND AND GET THE PROBLEM CORRECTED - QUIT BLAMING THE CONTRACTOR AND TRYING TO GET A FREE RIDE.

A properly installed septic system should last 40 years if done correctly. Some standards for new installation may change.

[BobT]

If there is no statute of limitations and he can show that the system was not installed to code at the time, I should think there'd be a leg to stand on. The problem is that I think these codes change somewhat regularly. When I installed mine, I was told that it would probably be out of code within 5 years.

[jentz]

Last code change and most restrictive was 1995- 96 abit in 98.a few addendum's since but irrelevant. His system as stated was never inspected so it cant be passed!

He states "the inspecter never singed off on the permit" No permit illegal installation!!

[Tom7227]

A failure to have a permit or have the system approved may be a violation of some codes but it does not in and of itself prove that the system was improperly installed.

When I spent 2 years working on getting central sewer installed in my area I read a lot about systems. I can't swear on it but I am pretty sure that I have read that a mound system may last as few as 15 years. It has to have a lot to do with the usage, the soil types, whether the tank was cleaned or not, etc.

Finally, the chances of a lawyer taking on a case like this is about zero. Simply put there's too much time involved in trying to prove the case and too little at stake.

[BobT]

I think Tom is right.

[CJH]

+2

[MinnesotaMike]

Thanks to everybody who gave a supportive response.

As far as Drew, relax. Nobody is looking for a free ride, I'm trying to help my 76 year old father. A mound system could and should last longer than 14 years at least I hope mine does.

Mike

[brmuskie]

When I spent 2 years working on getting central sewer installed in my area I read a lot about systems. I can't swear on it but I am pretty sure that I have read that a mound system may last as few as 15 years. It has to have a lot to do with the usage, the soil types, whether the tank was cleaned or not, etc.

When you were trying to get central sewer installed - the 15 year life span for a mound was convenient to use for that purpose. The general consensus is that septic systems should last about 25-30 years or more. Of course, this depends on use and maintenance. If I maintained my system properly and only got 14 years out of it - I would be talking to the installer.

[Whisker Trout Slayer]

Does the state of Minnesota allow you to use the Advantex System made by Orenco? They are allowed down here in Iowa and are a real nice system. Google it and you will find out the information about the system. If I lived up there that is what I would put in before a mound system, if it is allowed of course.

[brmuskie]

Does the state of Minnesota allow you to use the Advantex System made by Orenco? They are allowed down here in Iowa and are a real nice system. Google it and you will find out the information about the system. If I lived up there that is what I would put in before a mound system, if it is allowed of course.

Minnesota and Iowa wastewater regulations are very different. Yes - Advantex systems are allowed in Minnesota but not in the same ways as in Iowa. They would still need a drainfield and possibly still a mound even with an advantex system. Surface discharges aren't an easy thing to do in Minnesota so that really isn't an option.

[bottomdweller]

Sounds like Drew might be the installer

[Whisker Trout Slayer]

Originally Posted By: Whisker Trout Slayer

Does the state of Minnesota allow you to use the Advantex System made by Orenco? They are allowed down here in Iowa and are a real nice system. Google it and you will find out the information about the system. If I lived up there that is what I would put in before a mound system, if it is allowed of course.

Minnesota and Iowa wastewater regulations are very different. Yes - Advantex systems are allowed in Minnesota but not in the same ways as in Iowa. They would still need a drainfield and possibly still a mound even with an advantex system. Surface discharges aren't an easy thing to do in Minnesota so that really isn't an option.

I know all about the Code in Iowa as I am a regulator for my county. Just across state line in Freeborn county I heard, which could be just a rumor, that they will only allow you to install a mound system. I don't understand why as the soils and water tables are the same. Even if you have good soils and no high water table it is still a mound for you, where I think the Advantex would be the route to go where you wouldn't have to worry about a mound failing or freezing. Also I have not read the Code for Minnesota or their reasoning or logic. But it is interesting to see how other states do it.

The area in Minnesota that really has me curious on how mounds work is up along the north shore. We stayed in a cabin up there that had a mound, but there is rock that is very shallow with little soil above it. How do those not freeze up and also why wouldn't they just seep out the toe or side slope of the hill that it is built upon?

[WallEYES]

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/?id=7080

[brmuskie]

I don't know about Freborn County - they may require mounds everywhere but I doubt it.

Mounds don't freeze any more than gravity trenches in my experience. If the mounds are installed correctly and used normally, they shouldn't freeze - with the exception of those freak winters with no snow and prolonged periods of extreme cold temps.

The distribution pipe or the pipe from the house to the tank has a more likely chance of freezing than the actual mound IMO.