APRs in Lottery Areas?

[BobT]

I have read this over and over the past few days and I feel I know both sides really well. It would be tough in MN with all the tradition we have to go to APR. I look at my own experience. My first few bucks were small bucks when I was 12 and 13. 25 years later I now wait for a mature 8 point or better. Everyone in my hunting party (4) shoots only 8 points or better. We have shot mature 6's without brow tines but we know if it is mature or not. My 6 year old son is going to go hunting in a few years and I hope he can shoot whatever he pleases. A trophy is in the eye of the beholder. My first buck a 4 point was a trophy and every time I look at the rack I can still remember how proud I was of it and how I went to my 6th grade class strutting!

I think what people are frustrated about when I read this is you have those in favor or not in favor. I guess to me it should be whatever a person chooses. I voluntarily CHOOSE to do APR where I hunt (Lottery are 122). We do not shoot does, we do not shoot small bucks, we hunt PUBLIC land along with our 80 private land. All our bucks this year PUBLIC land all 11 bucks we saw smaller than 8 walked and I know of one of those getting shot by the neighbors.

Our success rate is 100% the last 5 years 8 points or better. Some year we are going to get tag soup but that is the chance we take. If all I wanted was meat I would hunt at the grocery store because it is way cheaper! Now when my son comes he will shoot what he chooses. My dad, brother, and Brother-in-law are fine with that because that is how we started. I know all those in favor of APR most started out shooting small bucks. Those new hunters should also experience that feeling too.

What I think all of us should do is have a VOLUNTARY APR. Who needs a rule or a law. Practice it. Some of you hunting that have hunted 15 years or longer so you should be out of the stage filling tags ("Brown is Down") and into the stage of looking at managing your hunting area and cherishing the experience of the hunt. Really a "hunter" who shoots 4 deer is not a hunter but a shooter to me. Hunting is knowing when I pull the trigger I made a choice and will live with the 1 shot I take and am satisfied with the deer and I do not need to shoot any more deer.

We made a CHOICE to not shoot does although we had 2 tags the last 3 years and now our area is a lottery area. Funny thing is we saw more deer this year then ever. I have read and heard from others did not see many deer all over the state. People blame wolves (Funny our party saw 23 over 9 days of hunting) and still saw plenty of deer. People blame the DNR (Funny because they lowered bag limits and knew the winter was not good for deer). What really did it in my opinion everyone shooting everything they saw because they had a tag and hunters not managing their area themselves. "Brown is Down Theory" If there are 10 deer per square mile and your party shoots 7 or 8 what do you expect? just because you have a bonus, bonus, bonus tag does not mean you need to fill it.

So for those who do APR like me I commend you because you are making a choice in managing your deer herd for the future like I have. I challenge the rest of you who have hunted a long time (I'm 37, 25 years of hunting in) to try some form of letting smaller bucks go and shooting mature bucks or does if you like. In our 5 years of doing this in a Lottery area the number of deer sightings up, smaller bucks can grow up, and we have shot some dandy bucks! I can't wait for my son to shoot his first buck and walk over and see that big smile however big that buck is because while I practice APR, he needs to figure that out on his own and when he is ready to make that choice for himself.

[ntrider]

So look at it this way......6 out of 10 bucks under 2 are getting blasted by hunters, say 2 more fall prey to the elements or predators during the winter, now all of a sudden out of those 10 bucks, you have two that survive til the next hunting season and are our hope to breed the does.

so they say 6 out of 10 are under 2yrs...the 2 that fall prey to predators are not part of the 10...the other 4 that are part of the 10 are older than 2yrs...the 2 that fall prey are from the remaining living under 2yr olds that we really don't know how many there are...

[96trigger]

Bob, it would have to be on fairly large tracts of land. I am pretty specifically talking about zone 3. but there are some pretty big regions up north that could look at it and it would probably be effective. I don't think going by area would be as effective. But it seems to work in areas as large as Itasca State Park.

However, I have no idea what its like to hunt up there, so I am going to refrain from posting any kind of assumption.

[Wobbler]

Bob,

I'm not a politician. But think it is funny that you think that . I guess the point I was making is after reading every post is that:

1. APR should be a choice not a mandate.

2. Saying your a meat hunter and you do it for the meat is fine but don't use the excuse it is cheaper because it is not. No way!

3. No law should be passed for this. We have a tradition in MN and it should continue so I don't want to see the law changes as stated in my first post. But I have seen the benefits in my area of what we have done. Just sharing no jab at anyone.

4. The last part you quoted from me is how I feel. After hunting 25 years my spectrum of hunting has changed. I have seen that put on here before the stages/succession of hunters. I was all about killing a deer when I started deer hunting, then filling tags, then shooting bucks to now shooting trophy bucks. That is where I am at. I guess 50% want APR 50% don't. After reading this thread and others about not seeing deer or big deer depending what thread you read it is each hunter's responsibility to manage their own hunting area. Do what you think or any hunter or group needs to do. I just don't want people complaining about why they don't shoot nice deer or see any deer when they shoot everything they see. Don't complain when you don't see a deer when in years before everyone was filling tags and bonus tags. It is easy to point fingers at others (DNR, Wolves, other hunters) but sometimes it is hard to look in the mirror and say we overshot deer or we should not be shooting the small bucks because we don't see mature deer. I guess that was what I was trying to say. My challenge is if you want APR practice it in your area where you hunt. If you don't want APR don't!

[BRULEDRIFTER]

2. Saying your a meat hunter and you do it for the meat is fine but don't use the excuse it is cheaper because it is not. No way!

Those that come back at the big, bad, evil meat hunters with this thinking has me scratching my head a little.

How much does VENISON cost at the store, if you can even find it?

I mean beef is what we all have been raised on and is what everythig is made of, it's mass produced food for the masses full of God knows what. Well, IMO, venison is SOOOOOOOOO much better and leaner and healthier in so many ways then beef that you just cannot make that comparison.

Sure, if someone could go find venison or an equivilent, on the shelves at Cub for the low, low price of $1.60/lb, then by all means, you have a valid arguement. But comparing the quality of beef with that of venison is laughable! Apples to sardines!

[Wobbler]

Bruledrifter,

Not once in my post did I mention the health benefits of any meat compared to vension. You are right that vension is better when you look at lean content compared to beef. However, I would be interested to know by studies which one is better for you considering the possibility of lead fragements/lead in the venison versus beef. I won't make the comparison of apples to sardines like you mentioned but last time I checked there were warnings about lead in vension and no lead warnings on my beef, chicken, or pork at Cubs.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

When you butcher your own deer and are careful and mindfull to where the bullet passed, one shouldn't even be concerned with lead.

Also, I look at my whole family, and many friends families that are all alive and well after years, upon years of eating "lead-poisoned" venison.

The lead scare was all hype for the most part, IMO. I'm sure it's more of a concern, though, when it comes to venison coming out of a processing facility. There I can see a lot more problems.

[InTheNorthwoods]

But comparing the quality of beef with that of venison is laughable! Apples to sardines!

I completely agree. Beef is way better...

I think you are misconstruing the point again, the cost of meat argument is not based on individuals who can be choosey - those with none, will be thankful for anything. Whether its venison, beef, or chicken, they each provide protein and fill dietary needs.

I have nothing against someone who wants to make venison the main staple of their diet (as far as protein goes). But that is a personal choice, not a necessity. I am just stating that on a cost effective basis, deer hunting as a source of meat doesn't play the same role in our society as it did in the past.

[Wobbler]

Bruledrifter,

I did not want to start this debate but since you think I mentioned it my first post or 2nd one here is what I found. Lean yes healthier undecided. I guess it is kinda like Fox News "We Report You Decide".

From the MN DNR Site:

Lead information for hunters

Information discovered in spring 2008 indicates that small lead fragments often are present in hunter-harvested venison, particularly ground venison. As a result, the Minnesota DNR conducted the first-of-its-kind lead fragmentation study to simulate how different types of bullets commonly used for deer hunting might fragment.

To date, no illnesses have been linked to consumption of lead particles in hunter-harvested venison. But the DNR recognizes that the potential impacts of lead fragments ingested when eating hunter-harvested game are not well understood. Only now are state and federal health, wildlife and food safety agencies beginning to collect, study and analyze data to determine exactly what those impacts may be.

DNR Fish & Wildlife Division staff designed the study using firearms and ammunition commonly used by Minnesota deer hunters. The results are not exhaustive but they do show that all bullets fragment, some more than others, and make it clear that lead fragments travel much farther than expected.

Before you go into the field this fall, consider the information presented in the links below. Watch our online presentation or download it for reference. Use the information to make your own decision about the ammunition you choose.

[Wobbler]

InTheNorthwoods,

I agree with you 100%. Now back to the real debate!

[BRULEDRIFTER]

I think it all comes down to individuality..... just like APR preferences. Each individual has their OWN ideas about what THEIR hunt means to them, and no one has the right to force them into beliving otherwise.

[Musky Buck]

There you go Brule. I'm in favor of it but don't want to see it if it effects the young or old hunter, then again there's some big families out there that do want and enjoy the meat and times are tougher. I'm just tired of the guys that shoot lots of yearling bucks for mostly the sake of shooting and having lined up enough tags to save their own for muzzy, that changing would leave more bucks to shed their first headgear.

[Wobbler]

I agree with both Bruledrifter and Musky Buck! I choose APR for myself but don't force it upon everyone else! My goal is to shoot big bucks, others may want to fill their freezer. But we have the option to do whatever!

[B. Amish]

My take:

I've only shot one buck that I haven't put on my wall and that was because someone else put a bullet into his jaw and I knew he would never live through the winter. You'll have a hard time finding someone who believes in passing on younger bucks more than I do. BUT, I DO NOT WANT APR's.

Look at the difference the last 10 years has made in people passing up younger bucks. It's been night and day. We don't need APR's. I also think they could bring unforeseen circumstances dealing with genetics.

I think trail cameras have made the biggest difference in people passing on young bucks. Now, guys know that there are big bucks around because they have pictures of them. It shows them that they can get big and that they have a chance at harvesting one because they're in the area. It makes passing on younger bucks all that much easier.

It takes time to change peoples attitudes. It's been happening the last 10-15 years. We don't need a law. It's only going to get better going forward the way we're doing it now.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

It takes time to change peoples attitudes. It's been happening the last 10-15 years. We don't need a law. It's only going to get better going forward the way we're doing it now.

Exactomundo!!!!! That is exactly what will eventually happen. Rome wasn't built in a day!

[BobT]

I'm a bit on the fence with APR. When we hunt our first objective is to get some venison. Not because we need the meat to supplement our groceries but because we love venison. We have a party of 5 and one deer fulfills that requirement. Once we've satisfied that requirement the adults are primarily concentrating on older bucks. We let the kids be less selective. If we get toward the last couple days of the season and haven't already taken a second deer, we might relax our rule and take a smaller buck or doe if we have the tags. I guess you can say we practice SAPR. (Selective APR).

I might be supportive of the idea of picking a boundary area or a few and managing them for trophy hunters similar to how we manage some lakes this way...as long as they don't pick mine.

Why not? I think it would only be fair to provide areas that can satisfy trophy hunters as well as leaving other areas for the rest of us.

[hollerman]

With APR's most people seem to focus on the imediate affets. The fact that they can't shoot little bucks anymore and it limits their chance at harvesting an animal. In my view it would greatly increase my chance at harvesting a mature buck. I think the DNR would loose license sales only for a few short years but when people see the results it has on the age of our deer population everyone and their brother will want to hunt in minnesota. Eventully the harvest totals would become equal to what they are now but insted of the majority being yearlings they would be 2-1/2 to 3-1/2 year old deer.