Grouse Hunting from ATVs

[Chef]

It's obvious after seeing all the debate in this thread that there is a divide between people who hunt for the pleasure and priveledge of the outdoors, respect for the resource and fellow hunters.

The other side are proponents of using every possible method of machinery and technology at their diposal (or within their budget) to get out there and kill "their share" of game as quickly (and easily) as humanly possible.

If some people could ride ATV's to the top of a Mountain instead of hiking on foot, they would. Look at the poeple who ride sleds all over Yellowstone to "enjoy" looking at the animals and beauty of the Park--that's way easier than snow shoeing or cross country skiing. HOw can you possibly get full enjoyment out of the outdoors riding on a machine versus quietly walking?

By the way, I own a 4x4 and I leave it at home when I hunt Grouse. I enjoy the connection with Mother Earth and the Man Above walking down a peaceful trail on foot.

Please don't kill the messenger here, afterall, it's your posts and justifications that draw the conclusion.

[Bear55]

Different strokes for different folks. You can't force people to do things your way even if you feel its the right way to hunt grouse. You can look down at others for the way they hunt grouse but others might look down at you for the way you deer or waterfowl hunt. We can go on and on like this or just move on and you do your thing and let others do their thing as long as its not illegal. I think a lot of the time people run into uneithical or illegal hunters on ATV's and then group them in with everyone else.

[Chef]

Different strokes for different folks. You can't force people to do things your way even if you feel its the right way to hunt grouse. You can look down at others for the way they hunt grouse but others might look down at you for the way you deer or waterfowl hunt. We can go on and on like this or just move on and you do your thing and let others do their thing as long as its not illegal. I think a lot of the time people run into uneithical or illegal hunters on ATV's and then group them in with everyone else.

Yep, my point was totally missed

[fishface]

Sorry, but you can be forced to hunt and fish certain ways.

I'd really like to use dynamite fishing because I just LOVE that BOOM and I get SO much more enjoyment from just strolling along and picking up my fish rather than having to actually fish for them. If people would just mind their own buisness and let me fish the way I want we'd get along just fine.

I'm sorry for the sarcasm, But come on!

Working hard does NOT always equal success.

I've stopped waterfowl hunting because I would bust my (bad word) just to have some "ethical/legal" hunter pull in down wind of me at the last minute and compleatly negate every bit of effort I'd made. It happens the same way on the grouse trail. Unless you're WAY up north there are trails everywhere. Most you can drive your car too. If I walk in a couple miles the last thing I want is for somebody to walk in a block or less from another direction. There should be places all over this state where hard work and extra effort do pay off. Apart from the boundy waters and the bog around Red lake there aren't too many places left.

[Bear55]

Originally Posted By: Bear55

Different strokes for different folks. You can't force people to do things your way even if you feel its the right way to hunt grouse. You can look down at others for the way they hunt grouse but others might look down at you for the way you deer or waterfowl hunt. We can go on and on like this or just move on and you do your thing and let others do their thing as long as its not illegal. I think a lot of the time people run into uneithical or illegal hunters on ATV's and then group them in with everyone else.

Yep, my point was totally missed

Chef I guess you missed my point. As long as someone is hunting legally I won't look down on them. I might not like they what they are doing but I can't legally stop them so I have to learn to live and hunt/fish with them. How is grouse hunting from an ATV any different that using a high powered rifle for deer, or a decked out boat with all the bells and whistles while fishing. According to some here we should all be using traditional archery equipment and fish with spears. The hypocracy in this thread id running a little thick, because I am sure some of the same people complaining about ATV grouse hunting are taking the easy road in other outdoor activities.

[duckster]

It used to really make me mad when out walking a trail and a group of ATVs would pass by me, especially if I was halfway through a loop. To the point where I would leave the area.

Now I try not to let it bother me. I take a break with the dog have a drink and a chew(JUST ME I DON'T LET MY DOG CHEW TOBBACCO) and then continue on. I have shot a lot of grouse that ATVs have driven by.

I would like to see more areas set aside for walk in only for both deer and grouse. I like to walk and get away from the crowds. I feel like if you devote the time and effort of walking in there should be the reward of getting away from the crowds. just my .02.

-Duckster

[fishface]

Duckster,

You'd make a good diplomat.

If I get burned, I've learned to let it go.

What else can you do?

I smoke cigars.

(they're good for lighting my dynamite too)

I do go into grouse hunts with the attitude of "just a nice walk" so if the worst happens it won't ruin my trip.

[Leaddog]

The one good thing about ATVs is that if the trail keeps going so do they! Right past the good stuff.

Keep the less ambitious (on foot or not) on the trail, leave the good places for the rest of us.

Every picture you see of 'grouse hunting' shows people on a trail. When did grouse hunting become trail hiking or riding?

Only sleddogs need trails...

[Musky Buck]

Tried to hunt grouse again, lots of ATV's chewing the daylights out of the trail, it's a mess especially after the rain(s). Notice I didn't mention grouse hunter/atv because the people cruising them mainly didn't have shotguns on board. Either way it was a yucky wet, oil the heater kind of day.

[Leaddog]

Mountain bikers used to get a bad rap for riding wet trails but then they got educated. The bike industry pushed that mantra using closed trails as proof of consequences.

When will ATVers learn the same?

[Chef]

Bear,

If we follow your line of rationale, then you wouldn't mind if a 40 yr. Old guy started dating your 18 yr. old Daughter? That's legal too. Or maybe we shouldn't question how we can send an 18 yr. Old into battle and not let them vote or have a freakin Beer? Legality as a justification for allowing poor behavior is a cop-out.

Frankly the Hypocricy argument isn't a reason for bad behavior either.

[Bear55]

Bad behavior is one thing, riding a trail while grouse hunting is another and both are hardly comparable to a 40 year old dating an 18 year old even if they are all legal.

Too many times people run into unethical or illegal hunters and then blame an entire group of people based on one bad experience.

Should I blame every guy who owns a Lund because one j***a** practically trolled into my friends boat one time?

[sportfishgl]

I am new to the site, and ran across this discussion while sifting through the site trying to make a decision about advertising. I could not help but add a comment to this thread.

This topic has drawn my ire since I read an article by Shawn Perich, written for the Cook County newspaper about 12 years ago. The article was titled 'Monkey with a moustache', and was a self-indulgent tirade on the evils of motorized hunting. I was not a fan of ATV's (In a fight over land use, the ATV clubs basically threw other users "under the bus" to secure their interest over that of other users, but I will digress…) after considering the content and tone of that article, I became worried that if we continued as sportsmen/women and outdoor users to cannibalize each other over petty differences in the execution of our sport, we would lose the greater battle of securing the basic right to hunt and fish, and use public lands.

As the various comments on this thread will show, there are a couple of different approaches to outdoor sports. I think of these as The Visceral and the Esoteric. Both are acceptable users of the outdoors. An individual may have different blends of both types, colored by their upbringing, experiences, needs, and means.

Some of the most outspoken advocates of banning ATVs are probably 100% esoteric hunters; the quality of the experience is spiritual. Just being in the woods, at one with nature, maybe working a well-trained canine companion IS the hunt. Being accosted by some Jerk individual blasting down "his" trail, ruins, or severely discolors the whole experience for this type of sportsman. These guys/gals are highly ethical, and in the field, are normally extra considerate of other hunters. When you get them OUT of the field, they are the first to proclaim themselves superior to any other users, and demand restrictions and laws that keep "lesser" users out of their way. Others tend to sterotype these as the rich snobs, but in my experience these fellows are just as likely to be the most frugal spenders on outdoor equipment and trips.

Enter the visceral sportsman. This is the guy/gal who just enjoys being outdoors. They think; "If I can have a fun ATV ride on the way to my trout fishing spot, AND shoot a grouse for dinner along the way, that is a great day outdoors!" Many times these are the folks trying to pack a 5-day trip into a weekend. They are working off of an unconscious mental checklist. They want to do a little of everything they enjoy. They may be less likely to put hours into pouring over stocking reports, and scouting, rather, they show up, and take what the trip gives them. Sadly, this attitude also makes this group more prone to stepping on others toes. They are also the group most likely to spend tons of money on stuff the rest of us find extravagant- they don’t just want a 14' Lund and a 9.9, no, they want 225 hp, and a 70mph ride to the fish- This is every bit a part of their outdoor experience just as absolute solitude is for the Esoteric type. Like it or not, these guys have a big part in funding the sport for all of us. If these big spenders disappear, so does a big portion of the funding that supports the activity of the DNR.

You will never get the "100%'ers" of either type to agree. Thankfully, the vast majority of us fall in between these two extremes. If we try and understand our own motivations it should lead to a greater tolerance of fellow sports-folk who may be a little more one way or the other. The important thing is that, while we may disagree with the way each other approaches hunting, fishing, politics, Ford vs.Chevy, sports, etc.We ALL must work together to preserve the basic right to access to public lands and use of the outdoors, even if we are occasionally annoyed by another type of user. "A house divided cannot stand."

I will also agree with previous posts that any illegal, or outright abusive behavior should be promptly reported, with emphasis on the INDIVIDUAL perpetrator NOT their group as a whole. There is no shame in "narc-ing" as these folks are stealing directly from the rest of us.

Sorry about a "newbie" post that is more article than pithy commentary, but this one has bothered me for a while, and is far deeper than the ATV vs. Walker debate. Anywhere you look sportsmen are bickering between each other over petty disagreements, while the big anti-(fill in the blank) groups are in solidarity against us all- ATV'er or Walker alike.

[Chef]

Very eloquent summation, thanks for posting your thoughts.

Now the challenge remains--will the rude hunters who act like selfish children join he human race?

[Harmonica Bear]

sportfishgl,

Nice post, well put. Welcome aboard!

[sportfishgl]

Very eloquent summation, thanks for posting your thoughts.

Now the challenge remains--will the rude hunters who act like selfish children join he human race?

Chef,

Not very likley. One can only stay vigilant to turn in the worst offenders, and hope that we can influence others by example.

I think it is too much to ask that everyone should be Aldo Leopold, but holding folks to a little higher standard of courtesy, I do not think, is too much to ask.

[Chef]

Amen to that!

[Bear55]

Well said sportfishgl! Too many people see things in black and white and don't realize the many shades of gray when if comes to the outdoors.

[BobT]

I find it humorous how so many are quick to condemn or criticize others because they do things a little differently.

"How can you possibly get full enjoyment out of the outdoors riding on a machine versus quietly walking?"

This is funny because I'm sure those that feel this way only do because they don't go beyond a certain point. They probably hunt grouse using a shotgun. One could then ask, "How can anyone possibly get full enjoyment out of hunting using a firearm rather than using the skills God has provided?"

It's easy to be critical so long as those you're critical of are doing something beyond your ability, desire, or pocketbook.

[Shack]

I am new to the site, and ran across this discussion while sifting through the site trying to make a decision about advertising. I could not help but add a comment to this thread.

This topic has drawn my ire since I read an article by Shawn Perich, written for the Cook County newspaper about 12 years ago. The article was titled 'Monkey with a moustache', and was a self-indulgent tirade on the evils of motorized hunting. I was not a fan of ATV's (In a fight over land use, the ATV clubs basically threw other users "under the bus" to secure their interest over that of other users, but I will digress…) after considering the content and tone of that article, I became worried that if we continued as sportsmen/women and outdoor users to cannibalize each other over petty differences in the execution of our sport, we would lose the greater battle of securing the basic right to hunt and fish, and use public lands.

As the various comments on this thread will show, there are a couple of different approaches to outdoor sports. I think of these as The Visceral and the Esoteric. Both are acceptable users of the outdoors. An individual may have different blends of both types, colored by their upbringing, experiences, needs, and means.

Some of the most outspoken advocates of banning ATVs are probably 100% esoteric hunters; the quality of the experience is spiritual. Just being in the woods, at one with nature, maybe working a well-trained canine companion IS the hunt. Being accosted by some Jerk individual blasting down "his" trail, ruins, or severely discolors the whole experience for this type of sportsman. These guys/gals are highly ethical, and in the field, are normally extra considerate of other hunters. When you get them OUT of the field, they are the first to proclaim themselves superior to any other users, and demand restrictions and laws that keep "lesser" users out of their way. Others tend to sterotype these as the rich snobs, but in my experience these fellows are just as likely to be the most frugal spenders on outdoor equipment and trips.

Enter the visceral sportsman. This is the guy/gal who just enjoys being outdoors. They think; "If I can have a fun ATV ride on the way to my trout fishing spot, AND shoot a grouse for dinner along the way, that is a great day outdoors!" Many times these are the folks trying to pack a 5-day trip into a weekend. They are working off of an unconscious mental checklist. They want to do a little of everything they enjoy. They may be less likely to put hours into pouring over stocking reports, and scouting, rather, they show up, and take what the trip gives them. Sadly, this attitude also makes this group more prone to stepping on others toes. They are also the group most likely to spend tons of money on stuff the rest of us find extravagant- they don’t just want a 14' Lund and a 9.9, no, they want 225 hp, and a 70mph ride to the fish- This is every bit a part of their outdoor experience just as absolute solitude is for the Esoteric type. Like it or not, these guys have a big part in funding the sport for all of us. If these big spenders disappear, so does a big portion of the funding that supports the activity of the DNR.

You will never get the "100%'ers" of either type to agree. Thankfully, the vast majority of us fall in between these two extremes. If we try and understand our own motivations it should lead to a greater tolerance of fellow sports-folk who may be a little more one way or the other. The important thing is that, while we may disagree with the way each other approaches hunting, fishing, politics, Ford vs.Chevy, sports, etc.We ALL must work together to preserve the basic right to access to public lands and use of the outdoors, even if we are occasionally annoyed by another type of user. "A house divided cannot stand."

I will also agree with previous posts that any illegal, or outright abusive behavior should be promptly reported, with emphasis on the INDIVIDUAL perpetrator NOT their group as a whole. There is no shame in "narc-ing" as these folks are stealing directly from the rest of us.

Sorry about a "newbie" post that is more article than pithy commentary, but this one has bothered me for a while, and is far deeper than the ATV vs. Walker debate. Anywhere you look sportsmen are bickering between each other over petty disagreements, while the big anti-(fill in the blank) groups are in solidarity against us all- ATV'er or Walker alike.

Ding, Ding (As Old Joe would say)

sportfishgl great post. I was hinting twords what you brought forward a page or two back.

Thanks for posting and I hope to read more form you.

[DanH]

A common theme from the walking hunter is that the ATV’s change their experience in the woods. No ATV riders have said that a walking hunter changes their ATV riding/hunting experience.

The impact of the ATV hunter on a walking hunter is greater than the impact that the walking hunter has on the ATV hunter. That’s the difference. It's not a condemnation or a criticism. It's just the way it is.

Quite woods are getting a little smaller and further away each passing decade. The ATV is simply a contributing factor to the shrinking of the quiet woods.

[sportfishgl]

Well said sportfishgl! Too many people see things in black and white and don't realize the many shades of gray when if comes to the outdoors.

Actually, Bear it is grEy not grAy. A true linguist would use the proper spelling.....

Just kidding, of course but it does illustrate how insane petty argurments can become! I actually know a few folks who, in their heart-of hearts would believe they are better for spelling Grey with a "e"! Keep those egos in check, and we will all be better off.

As an avid great lakes fisherman for the last 20+ years, I can say that we are lucky ATV'er and Walkers dont carry VHF radios and loud-hailers! Some really obnoxious stuff goes on when you have 200 boats covering 1 square mile of water trolling in the dark! This is actually a pretty civil debate compared to the foolishness that occurs on Lake Michigan at 3:30am!

[Bear55]

Thanks for the tip sportfishgl, a linguist I am not! In fact without spell checker I would have been thrown out of college.

[sportfishgl]

A common theme from the walking hunter is that the ATV’s change their experience in the woods. No ATV riders have said that a walking hunter changes their ATV riding/hunting experience.

The impact of the ATV hunter on a walking hunter is greater than the impact that the walking hunter has on the ATV hunter. That’s the difference. It's not a condemnation or a criticism. It's just the way it is.

Quite woods are getting a little smaller and further away each passing decade. The ATV is simply a contributing factor to the shrinking of the quiet woods.

Dan,

I really have no dog in this hunt (pardon the pun), but if I may play Devil's advocate; I think the ATV'er would reply that actively persuing the closing of trails, and lumping even responsible users together with irresponsible users- does indeed affect their experience.

I personaly would robustly support some "quiet woods" areas, possibly opening something similar to a mini-BWCA within some of the larger public lands.

I have supported X-ctry ski trails as well as my beloved snowmobile trails. It is important to support all users, and keep distinct groups seperate. I do understand that the skier dosent want to hear the scream of a snomobile as much as the snowmobiler dosent want to come up on a group of skiers filling the trail around a blind corner.

It is also true, that as a user group, you have a responsibility as a steward. ATV groups should, and I am sure many do, maintain the trails they are given. When I have gone Jeep riding on public lands out west, they have huge jamborees where users and clubs gather to repair, clean and upgrade the trails. We routinely run across hikers using these trails and give them wide berth. When we have talked to the hikers they usally thank the guys for fixing some bridge, or keeping it clean etc. proving these two diverse user groups can get along!

You final comment is the most telling. We ALL lament the shrinking outdoors, quiet user or not. That is why it is so important to secure public lands, and then work together to make them work for each other. With the states hard up for $ it is real easy to sell public lands. If we are constantly bickering to the DNR about different users, they may decide to sell, or close off an area entirely. Believe me, for every Walking hunter that wants to close down an ATV trail, there are 3 anti-hunters that want the whole thing shut down!

[BobT]

Quote:

Actually, Bear it is grEy not grAy. A true linguist would use the proper spelling.....

Sorry, had to bite.

According to Merriam-Webster

GrAy is the appropriate spelling whereas GrEy is a variant of Gray.

In other words, either spelling is acceptable.