My first gun

[MUSKYMAN1011]

I rate the Rem 870 as the BEST SELLING PUMP on the Planet Earth!

[96trigger]

I don't think you can beat an 870 "wingmaster". I think the 870 express is half the gun, thus half the price. I think remington is believing their own hype about the wingmaster. That said, I would buy a used wingmaster before a new express.

The biggest advantage to having an 870 is that the parts and accessories are everywhere. From sights, to slings, to barrels, you can go to just about any gun store and get the parts on hand.

you can't do that with many guns. Also, I own plenty of shotguns, 2 winchester 1300 speed pumps, a stevens 12 gauge, a benelli supernova 12 gauge, and a beretta 390. I like all of them except the benelli, I would not buy another one. I am sure that I just bought a lemon, but a lemon it is, jams like crazy with 2 3/4 inch shells. I don't like having a gun I can't shoot trap with.

As for fit, I think unless you are super short or tall, most guns will fit you especially if you practice, you will learn to shoot it accurately. I don't adjust my stock every time I put a new layer on, and it pulls up very differently when I have 6 layers on, then when I have 1 layer on shooting trap, but I know where it's going to hit when I line up the sights. However, you should note how well you like the trigger pull, action, stock, forearm, etc. I think it has to feel good in your hands. My benelli is really, really slippery if my hands are sweating or wet, man I hate that.

[koonie]

cody

How is a jam a jam if the person is the problem?

If that's the case every gun is a jamming piece of dung.

[deerminator]

It really is a matter of personal choice and operator skill. The right NASCAR drive is going to be able to win with a Ford, Chevy, Dodge or Toyota. He'll find a way to make that car work for him. Same with your gun. F&S always ranks the 870 as one of the best shotguns of all time because of its popularity, ease of use and affordability. But they also rank a lot of other fancier, pricier guns that work just as well if not better on their list too.

You don't get as many whirligigs on the 870 as you do a semi-automatic gun four times the price, but there are less whirligigs to break or malfunction too. My one friend threw his benelli back in the gun safe for his 870 for deer hunting every year for a couple of years in a row for that very reason.

Bottom line, if the shooter is comfortable with way the gun feels and operates, they will make it work. F&S told the story of a champion trap shooter that would only use his 870 for competition because that's what worked for him.

[CodyDawg]

If you have a nice big ol' longtail jump up in front of you and lo and behold, you miss on numero uno, you double your concentration and have him dead to rights on number 2...except nothing happens when you mash the trigger. Sadly you think, I prolly short stroked her. Doesnt really matter if it was your fault or not, the guns fault or not, Mr. Longtail is cackling at you as he coasts into the neighbors swamp.

Now compare that to a gun that doesnt jam by itself and there is no possibility of short stroking...in this case, your wife is now a little perturbed by your $200 taxidermist bill for Mr. Longtail to grace your wall!

So it doesnt matter why the gun jammed, if it did it on its own or you were part of it. A jam is a jam and the game gets away. I am very fortunate (and knocking on wood right now) that my gun doesnt jam for any reason and I would like others to know that feeling as well.

[deerminator]

$200 for a pheasant? Don't you know you can get one from the Sportsmansguide for just over $100 - and they supply the pheasant - you fool. : ) Sorry, I couldn't resist. I love their little write-up in their catalog.

[walerak]

it doesn't sound like you will be pushing the limits or have the demands that some of these people and myself do. so in reality mostly any 12ga gun with a 3 or 3.5" chamber will work for you. remember you can shoot lighter shells, but gotta get a new gun if ya need more. find one that fits you confortable. when you swing it. hold your gun in your normal carry position, close your eyes and bring the gun up to shoot, are you looking right down the barrel or do you have to adjust it? can you afford it? if the feel for the gun is close, but not quite right, try a shorter or longer barrel. also, don't commit yourself to one brand, just because gun A is a great gun from a company, doesn't always mean gun B is. read reviews on the guns your looking at. the best reliabilty reviews come from the self defence articles, not hunting. look at all aspects, and don't be afraid to sacrifice 1 feature for 3 characteristics you like better.

pump vs semi:

pumps: are generally more reliable as there are less moving parts. in the hands of a experienced shooter they are faster than alot of semi's under $1000. in the hands of an unexperienced shooter it takes more concentration to make follow up shots to make the pump a fluent motion to not take your bead off the target while cycling the action, after a while you won't even notice your actually pumping the gun because it becomes as natural as pulling the trigger.

Semi:many more factors in the purchase, and the first one that useually comes to play is the price. the reliability on that $300 charles daily isn't going to be the same as the benelli SBE2 or others in that category. semi's are more selective about rounds being shot in them, a lowbrass 2 3/4 often times wont have enough energy to completely cycle the action on a gun built for 3"chambers, and fat chance on one built for 3 1/2's. semi's may have components that wear out at a fast rate. there's a reason that at most gander mountains sell the O-rings for the gas cylinder of an 11-87. yes its a quick simple fix, but is that o-ring going to fail on that follow up shot to a monster buck. semi's are often easier to shoot at multiple targets and for fast follow up shots since the gun doesn't move as much when cycling the action, giving you a faster target aquisition. they also useually have less recoil than pumps, but that can be changed with the fit of the gun and the type of stock.

from what you explained i would recomend a pump to you, it makes you think and concentrate more on what you are doing and how you are handling the gun to make better habbits. no real concern about reliability as you be pushing the use thresholds and not many 3 1/2's that beat up the action and components. no worry about cycling the cheapest lowbrass target shells.interchangable chokes to cover your needs. just make sure you find one that fits you, there are enough good styles and models you should never have to make yourself shoot to the guns style, the gun should always shoot to your style of shooting. and remember after you use it a little, you will learn quick about the characteristics you want in your next gun.

hope this helps, have a blast

[walerak]

Unless that is not the case, you cannot possibly go wrong with an 870. It's pretty much the benchmark against which all other single-barrel shotguns are measured. It has been that way for 50 years, and as wonderful as these later model shotguns are, there is no evidence of any shotgun replacing them as that benchmark.

look in a police car, swat van or at the clips from iraq. where there USED to be 870's there are now mossberg 500's. i hate to admit to it, but 870's today are not what they had built thier repuation on. slide the action and pull the trigger of one in a gunstore, then go home and do the same to one 10+ years old, you can feel the difference immediatly. you will never catch me buying a 500 and many police and swat teams still use the 870, but most of them if they re-equip are jumping the fence because the lack of quality the 870 was known for in the past.

[koonie]

They get the Mossbergs because they are cheaper and times have gotten very tight. Although, Mossberg 500s are very reliable.

Walerak.

The 11-87 o-ring thing is the most overhyped problem ever in the history of semi auto shotguns. If you take care of the gun(clean it) it will take care of you. The o-ring still can be a problem. Not the greatest design. I broke one on the very first shot from my 11-87 sps waterfowl. I always keep one with me so I just replaced it. The factory o-rings aren't as good as the aftermarket o-rings.

[JeffB]

I shot a 870 wingmaster for years, definatly a good quality gun. I advised a freind on a tight budget to get an 870 express. It turned out to be total junk and I felt bad for giving him the advice. Wingmasters may still be OK but I would stay away from the express.

[mudslinger]

Own two 870's. The older one seems built better BUT they are still great guns. My 870 super mag actually SAVED MY LIFE once. Long story but true. BUT I normally hunt w/ Winchester Super X2. No jamming problems as long as the load is 1oz of shot and not the cheapest trap load possible. Guess I just like the ease of shooting and beating my buddies to the double:) As for a slug barrel on the X2, very pricey. Don't like the 11-87's at all

[koonie]

mudslinger

With the weather the way it is today I think we all have time for a long story. If it's not to personal.

[Big Dave2]

I'd like to hear it also.

[mudslinger]

Well here it goes. How my 870 saved my life.... So I was 20 years old and really overweight for a guy standing six foot two inches tall. A very lean buddy of the same height and I thought it would be really cool and special to walk ACROSS 200 yards of floating cattail swamp to late season duck hunt a lake surrounded by equal amounts of cattails. Oh yea, we had never hunted the lake and this was an early morning hunt with the mercury around twenty degrees F. We were super pumped up about hunting a place no one ever hunts and we fully expected to blast mallards all morning long. We were armed with waders and 12's and a bag of deeks. Well... the morning ordeal of watching my light footed friend creep across the floating cattails like a muskrat while I fell through and sunk into the mud up to my stomach had really worn me out. By the time we arrived to the open water, over forty five minutes later, we were both wet with sweat and really worn down. After throwing deeks and hunkering down we started to cool off. After two hours of seeing not a thing as far as waterfowl we were FROZEN. We debated about just leaving the decoys instead of wading out in the muck to pick them up. We were super cold and miserable but, with shaking hands and bodies, we picked up our spread. My friend started the trek back to the cattails with the majority of the gear, knowing it wouldn't be possible for me to physically get the gear and myself back through the quick sand cattails leaving me with just my 870. Within the first few yards of exertion I knew I needed some help cause I was in real trouble. As I sat fallen through the cattails for like the 250th time with no strength in my frozen body, I yelled to my friend on shore to call in a helecopter or something to get me. He started acting like a coach with positive encouraging words and I decided that I could somehow get out on my own. I began laying my 870 down in the mud/muck/cattail mess and walking across it. I repeated this walk across....pick it up....lay it back down again method over and over again. When I reached dry land my friend, who had encouraged me the whole time, had driven the truck off road right up to the edge of the swamp for me to climb in. I'll never forget how grateful I was for him and for my 870. Since I have lost a ton of weight and take my health more seriously. Moral of the story is no duck is worth almost losing your life over. Know your personal capabilities and just be comfortable with them.

I hope you enjoyed the story. Be safe and shoot straight.

[walerak]

They get the Mossbergs because they are cheaper and times have gotten very tight. Although, Mossberg 500s are very reliable.

Walerak.

The 11-87 o-ring thing is the most overhyped problem ever in the history of semi auto shotguns. If you take care of the gun(clean it) it will take care of you. The o-ring still can be a problem. Not the greatest design. I broke one on the very first shot from my 11-87 sps waterfowl. I always keep one with me so I just replaced it. The factory o-rings aren't as good as the aftermarket o-rings.

mossbergs may be cheaper yes, and that is why some units use them, but does price really matter to a swat team or SF unit carrying MP5's instead of m4's, Para's and HK's instead of Glocks? in the military it even comes down to glocks over berretta's. its reliability when that counts when lives are at stake. what about civil service members doing the same. i absolutely love the older 870's especially the early wingmasters. the original state was just to state that times and standards change, and i feel remmington is letting the customers down by selling a substandard product when compared to its previous models that shooters fell in love with, even though it is still a great gun and the first slide shotgun i would recomend to anyone. even if that means i'm going to recomend a used one.

as for 11-87, you carry extra orings with you, it may not seem like that big of a deal to you, but thats not the quality i look for in a gun, i dont believe you should need to bring "spare parts" for your shotguns operating system with you on a hunt.

[CodyDawg]

for the most part I agree with your post Walerak. However, I have to disagree on the reliability. If you get a quality auto, you will not have reliability issues, period.

As with faster shooting...no way. Have you ever seen an auto cycle? Watch one once and you will realize just how fast they are. You almost cant see it move it is so fast. Just a blur.

You are dead on with the target re-acquisition piece.

[96trigger]

I love the people that say they can unlaod their pump faster than a semiauto. Its just too funny. They might be able to unload it fast, but not like a semiauto. I have a beretta AL390 semi auto that has been by far my most reliable gun and also the one I shoot the most. I have 2 winchester 1300 pumps, and one benelli Supernova, as well as a stevens 12ga pump, in case people were wondering if I shoot pumps. I went back to them because I didn't like getting my beretta all muck, but man, they just aren't the same. I should have bought an extrema...

[adamm1]

Thanks for all the feedback after reading this and doing more research including shouldering the gun ect. I think I am going to go with a used 870 wingmanster. This is what I hope to be the first of many guns and I think as I get more into it I will probably upgrade at some point but this seems to be great gun to have a s a back up for most situations. I think for deer next year I am going to purchase a small scope instead of dropping 250 on a riffled barrel or a smooth bore with riffle sights. I have seen several built for the 870 that are very reasonably priced and for the distance shots I will be taking I don't need anything very powerful. Anyway thanks again if anyone has any other thoughts lemme know

[koonie]

I don't need to carry spare parts. I just like to be prepared. That said, the 11-87 isn't considered the leader in reliability but I can't complain about having one issue with my gun in ten years. Have had no issues with my other two 11-87s.

I have heard a fair amount of 11-87 horror stories though.

[walerak]

an ol wingmaster is an excellent choice for you. and should live up to many many years of hunting, even as a backup. for big hunts i still bring the 870 along as a backup just incase of catastrophy or perhaps losing a gun on a hunt 6 hours away from home. but otherwise the 870 stays home but just looking at it can put me back into some of the best hunting times i've ever had.

as for the speed of a pump vs semi. i did say in the hands of an expierienced shooter and under $1000 possibly i should have put a lower price on that, but it was more of a reference to the lesser grade auto's. and you say its not possible but in reality it is, look up some of the records that flanigan has broked with his 1300. granted those are world records, howeever it does show that it is possible. but think back to yourself or someone you know that actually has had fast handling of a pump or even played shooting games in the back yard. someone who is skilled with a pump can easily take out targets before a medeocre shooter shot is with an auto. no a pump will never compare to the action speed of the sx3, extremas, SBEII's ect, not possible. but it can easily be compared to such guns as the old 1100's and such guns, while the 870's of the same day were as smooth as glass, those guns had what felt like harder recoil, more muzzle jump combined with a binding action and poor trigger pull. but 870's have almost always been manufactured with recoil pads, while some of the autos had but plates instead. but that can still even go for some of the base model auto's that you see being produced today that are selling at higher retail prices than base model pumps.

as for the 11-87, i also have met people who love them to death and never had an issue, so it may just be the the company has put out a few lemons in with thier guns, but that hits back to one of my original beliefs, remington is letting thier quality control slip on thier shotguns. thier rifles seem to be good, but i've just lost alot of confidence in the new remmies

[96trigger]

Ahhhh, the 1300 "speed pump" with the rotary bolt that starts the ejection process for you, almost like an automatic. Yes, in my above post I mention that I have two of those gems. Wish winchester still made them. They are quick, and I really like both guns, wouldn't trade or sell them for anything, but even against the lower end simi-autos of today, as long as it is gas or inertia driven, they will still cycle a little faster. And, I am in no way discrediting pumps.

Every fall we have a duck tower shoot at our trap range, unlimited shells, with a partner, birds flying over the top of your head. Mostly semi-autos (Berettas, Benellis, Winchesters, and Remingtons) and 870's out there. The semi's are really quite a bit faster.

Also, very good choice on the old wingmaster, I believe in one of my previous posts I even mentioned that I would much rather purchase a used wingmaster over a new express. Good luck with your gun, I hope it gives you years of reliable service.

Remember, it doesn't matter how fast you can shoot, it what you can do with your shot. Thats half the reason I have so many pumps. Often, I don't need the quick second shot for deer, and that is how I like it. I can't think of a time deer hunting when I have said, man, I wish I would have had my semi-auto ..

Even have a rifled Hastings slug barrel for my AL390, but always end up taking out the "Deer Hawg" Winchester 1300.

[koonie]

I really should get a wingmaster. Thanks a lot guys!

[koonie]

You look in a police car around here and all you'll see are 870s. Brand new ones too. We ordered them up for three different counties. Was interesting what they traded in though. A few Ithacas and a few mossbergs. Most of the old guns were bought by the officers themselves though.

[Musky Buck]

9 years old, single shot stevens 20. gauge

[Musky Buck]

Koonie, do they make a wingmaster anymore, thought they were all expresses, I have 2 wingmasters I'd gladly sell.