Using a Seine

[DTro]

Just thought I'd add an interesting conversation I had today with a CO.

I won't mention where I was, or who the CO was, but let's just say that I was somewhere a seine could be bought and there happened to be a CO at a table answering questions about the regulations.

I had a seine in my hands and noticed the CO, as I walked by. I said, "you're not going to add verbiage to the regs next year making these illegal are you" basically referencing the throw net wording for this year (of course right after I bought one).

He says, "doesn't matter, it is illegal to use a seine to trap minnows".

I kind of gave him the "what choo talking about Willis" look.

We went back and forth and he even looked in the regs. Tossed the book onto the table and said, "can't do it, don't buy it".

I grabbed the regs, flipped to page 68 and showed him the minnow section.

He didn't quite know what to say, and basically said well I guess your legal.

I felt like I got the cold shoulder since I didn't have a question about Walleye harvest, slot limits, or VHS.

[fishn4kids]

Pretty bad when you know more about the regs than a CO. Not saying anything bad about CO's but it just makes you wonder how many tickets have been given to people that also did not no the regs and just paid up on the fines. Thanks for sharing Dtro!

Duane

[DTro]

Well 99% of the CO's I have contact with are very knowledgeable and friendly.

I can't imagine all the jerk-baits they run into out in the field, and I can see where they might be at their wits end.

[fishn4kids]

Totally agreed. We have a good family friend thats a CO in Nebraska so i'm not dissing them at all, theres just some of those that i think are new in the field and they think they're right all the time. Just my thoughts.

Duane

[DARK30]

Did you tell him thats the best way to get those 8-10" bullheads?

[SteveD]

Darren - That was an interesting encounter with the CO. I can understand how this discussion would come up and how there may be conflicting interpretations of the legality of a seine.

There is a provision in the fishing regulations that the CO may have been thinking of when he told you the seine was illegal. I wasn't aware of this restriction until last month and I only bumped into it because I was thinking of seining some bullheads and I stumbled across this provision.

On page 53, 2008 Minnesota Fishing Regulations is the rule which states: "It is unlawful to possess at or near water a spear, net, or any device other than an angling line that can take fish from Feb 25, 2008 - April 30, 2008 and Feb 16, 2009 - April 30, 2009. The exception is landing nets used for angling."

The legal piece of this rule that is open to challenge is the wording: " . . . or any device other than an angling line that can take fish from . . . ".

If the CO asked you what you were doing with the seine and you said "harvesting minnows" I would think they could say OK and move on since you are not taking fish but harvesting minnows. By the same token, they could just as easily say - that is illegal and cite you referencing this rule. It looks to me like one of those CO discretionary situations.

If they asked the same question and you said "harvesting rough fish for cut bait" I would think they would cite you for a clear violation of this rule because you are clearly "taking fish".

According to this rule on page 53, I can see where a CO would interpret the use of a seine as unlawful to harvest minnows during that time frame.

I didn't end up using the seine during that time frame specifically because I thought it was too close to a violation of that rule. I did use my traps which could also be a violation because the rule states: " . . . or any device other than angling line that can take fish . . . ". My traps are clearly minnow traps with a 1 1/2 inch opening so I would think they would not be considered fish traps. I use them.

Interesting post.

[harvey lee]

Thats why I just use my fishing pole, no gray area.

[fishn4kids]

Grey areas and loop holes. Seems the whole world is just full of them. And do we really know why.

Duane

[aanderud]

Steve:

I believe this rule is in place to prevent spawning fish from being disturbed accidentally while harvesting minnows. I'm not sure of that, since I didn't write the rule. However, given the strong verbage in the regs on this one, my guess is that they are specifically and intentionally making an exception to the legal bait seine during this particular timeframe. If this is the case, then even if you said you were harvesting minnows you would and should be cited.

[mplspug]

We live in Minnesota, why is anyone surprised that we have legislated nothing more than confusion? I am surprised we even have a tourism industry still running. I know I would be afraid to step into the borders.

But anywho, I suggest everyone keep a regulation book in a plastic bag, in your tackle box.

[DTro]

That's funny Steve because he said that I could only use the net for rough fish, but not minnows.

It's too bad that the CO's need to interpret the laws themselves on some of these, but I'm sure that most of this is like 1% of what they deal with from day to day.

[goblueM]

That's the problem I think, the rules are what is written down, they are open to interpretation. I second the idea of always having a regulations book on you, to double check/discuss with any officer

[SteveD]

aanderud - I think you are exactly right. Using a seine to catch rough fish is legal except during these time frames to protect spawning fish. I think the rule is written for fish seines and I would think that a minnow seine would not fall under this rule. I was just to cautious to test the rule with my minnow seine.

[Shack]

Seine's!!!!!!!!

Dtro you are insane .

Net in my hand, walking by a table with DNR at it, I would have not even made eye contact . Just joking guys!

Had to razz him didn’t you, could not resist . huh? No, this case you informed a C.O. about something he has no knowledge of. That is cool, it could translate into one of you down town guys from having to go threw something out in the field using your seines.

Thanks for the “get of a fine” trick Dtro. If I run into a situation like this, I know what I am going to now.

Pull the regs book and turn to page 68.

You never know.

[PierBridge]

Moores Bait and Tackle.... problem solved....

[dps]

As far as I know, there is no closed season for harvesting minnows yet. As long as it is legal to harvest minnows, it is legal to do so by any means specified legal by the regulations as long as your within the limits(288 minnows).

[hanso612]

The primary focus of the cast net ban, incidental bycatch not withstanding, was the possibility of transporting hitchhikers. The DNR even consider wether or not it is going to be necesary to limit the transport of survey nets from lake to lake or find a way to steralize them.

I'd like to see some best practices implemented for net use versus an all out ban. Otherwise the DNR is going to have to buy a whole lot of new nets, wait a long time between sets, chemically treat the nets, or limit surveys.

What do you guys do to keep nets from spreading exotics?

[SteveD]

 Originally Posted By: hanso612

The primary focus of the cast net ban, incidental bycatch not withstanding, was the possibility of transporting hitchhikers. The DNR even consider wether or not it is going to be necesary to limit the transport of survey nets from lake to lake or find a way to steralize them.

I'd like to see some best practices implemented for net use versus an all out ban. Otherwise the DNR is going to have to buy a whole lot of new nets, wait a long time between sets, chemically treat the nets, or limit surveys.

What do you guys do to keep nets from spreading exotics?

We don't have the problems of spreading exotic species that the DNR has because:

#1: We are not allowed to seine minnows in any invasive species infested body of water. The DNR does a lot of netting in infested waters so they have the issue of getting their nets and equipment clean and clear of all infested water plants and debris.

#2: The DNR is using BIG nets. We are limited to using a 25 foot seine with no more than 148 meshes deep with 1/4 - inchbar measure or more than 197 meshes deep with 3/16 - inch bar measure.

#3. A 25 foot seine is not very big and is very easy to clean of any plants or debris that it may pick up. When you are done seining all you have to do is remove any visible plants and animals from the net before leaving the water access site.

Here is what a 25 foot seine looks like:

Here is what the catch sometimes looks like:

Here is another look at the seine. As you can see, it is not a very big net:

[hanso612]

Great pics, That looks like the perfect bait and very little bycatch. Perfect use for a bullhead. So let's make sure it stays legal! Good arguments so far. This netting gets called into tip because of lack of awareness pretty regularly. So a little light shed on this pariferal issue is going to help.

What about viruses? Or spiny waterflies? I bet they will get transported to a new lake before they are identified by the DNR and the lake is put on the list. I'd hate to be the one to be responsible for moving them first. (playing devils advocate)

Not to highjack a thread, but if and when we get a citizens counsel how are we going to get a cat guy on the committe to keep arguing for cat issues like big bait catching and transportation. I think we should run DTRO up the pole.

[DTro]

 Originally Posted By: hanso612

I think we should run DTRO up the pole.

Down boy

While I don't think it's a bad idea to have someone represent the cat fisherman, I can think of better candidates.

Like Steve for example

[hanso612]

My thoughts it would take someone with experience like Steve, I can tell he has the passion as well. I was thinking someone with the proven track record of hitting 3000 posts without getting banned from the site. The shere number of posts one would have to wade through to post 3000 times without trouble would be a good indecator of the diplomacy plus knowlege and passion necessary to be persuasive at the capitol.

When you read every post for five years your bound to learn something useful. A picture is worth a thousand words and you have a ton of good pics too.

We HAVE TO GET THIS CITIZEN COMMITEE locked in first. Hans

[SteveD]

 Originally Posted By: dtro

 Originally Posted By: hanso612

I think we should run DTRO up the pole.

Down boy

While I don't think it's a bad idea to have someone represent the cat fisherman, I can think of better candidates.

Like Steve for example

I'm a retired soldier and I don't do committees. A committee is a collection of idiots with nobody in charge and everybody is full of ideas that somebody else is supposed to do. You can take your Citizens Committee and put it where the sun don't shine.

I served my state and nation for 34 years and I've paid my dues. I've earned my retirement and I'm going to spend my free time fishing not sitting in some windowless room trying to tell the Minnesota DNR how to do their jobs. Leave them the heck alone and follow their leadership, even if you don't like it. Everybody thinks they should get to do everything they want - well life is tough - shut the heck up and do what you are told.

If I'm going to waste my time it is going to be watching a bullhead on the end of my line swimming in a prime flathead hole.

Who the heck hijacked our catfishing posts again to talk politics? I'm going to find another HSOforum that is interested in catfishing.

[hanso612]

Sorry Steve, didn't mean to chase you away-but we all know you're hooked on HSO too and aren't going anywhere except to the catfish hole.

The title of the thread is "using a sein" and my questions have all been about the legality of using a sein and the specifics of transporting the fish caught in the sein.

It is only when I ask " is it a good idea, not just legal" to move 24 dozen 7 inch fish around in seined water does it become political. But still very much in the spirit of the thread.

The last step is a simple question of "how are we going to keep seining, the subject of the thread legal". Once again on topic.

So the commitee suggestion is just a possible answer to the question of how to keep seining legal.

I am in complete agreement with you on commitees, but to stay on topic I wont tell you why.

These bait using, catching, transporting, practices are under scrutiny and if we don't put toghether a best practices program first, there is a big chance the legislature, not the DNR will take the easy way out and ban it all toghether. All it takes to prevent it is a strong voice at the committee table when the bill comes up to get it tabled. Then it won't have a chance of being snuck in as a line item on some big omnibus bill. That's all I'm saying.

And yes if the DNR uses it's emergency powers and outlaws I'll get in line and do as I'm told. Until then I'll try to find out what the right and best thing to do is, not just the legal thing.

So by all means back to fishing.

[Scott K]

Where would one go to purchase a legal seining net to use for bait in MN?

[Shack]

Most bait shops have them. You would be surprised.

Moore’s Bait has them