English setters vs German Shorthairs

[pointerspal]

I know its impossible to do and I currently own one of each. I always thought I would only run setters but my girlfriend got a shorthair and to say one is better than the other is impossible, and I know alot more goes into this than just breeds. I think I may have made the assumption that Grouse = English setters, and Pheasents= German shorthair. My dogs are both 2 and last season the german did much better than the english on grouse and the setter much better on pheasants. just a thought any of you guys have shorthairs that handle grouse.

And I know that Setters take a little longer to reach there prime so I'm not to worried about here figuring out those whiley little ruffies.

[setterguy]

Did she pay full price for her shorthair even though they kept the tail? With setters you get the WHOLE dog.

Seriously, there are plenty of good shorthairs out there, and plenty of good setters. There are bad shorthairs and bad setters, all you can do is research your breeder, and hope that you get one with the right wiring. Trying to teach a dog to hunt grouse is almost impossible, either they got it or they don't. Just keep getting her on birds, and it should figure itself out.

[gspman]

A good dog is a good dog no matter the breed. Depending on what you are looking for you can up your percentages by doing some research. Any dog can handle grouse but I think the key is starting them on grouse and running them only on grouse for a season or 2. Some will figure it out and some won't. Some don't have the nose for it. The trick is to get the dog to point at the very first inkling of scent. So they are generally pointing an area and are not really zeroed in. Grouse don't put up with zeroing in like pheasants do (most pheasants won't put up with it either). If you want your setter to be a better grouser you may not want to hunt it on pheasants until it has the grouse thing figured out. Also when training pop the bird as soon as the dog shows a sign of hitting scent. This will teach the dog to stop right away and hopefully not bump the bird.

[2thepointsetters]

I start on grouse and then the pheasants are easy... I wouldnt want to try the other way.

[Tinkhamtown]

German Shorthairs super smart and takes training well also very good in water.

Sure would like to see a good English Setter.

[gspman]

All dogs have holes. Either you haven't seen enough setters from field breeding or your taste in dogs doesn't match up with what a setter has to offer.

[2thepointsetters]

 Originally Posted By: Tinkhamtown

Field Trained well over two hundred dogs and just my two cents. I never seen a good English Setter (one with out a problem) and I've only seen lots and lots of good German Shorthairs super smart and takes training well also very good in water.

Sure would like to see a good English Setter so I can change my opinion!

This is comming from a HAPPY Chocolate Lab and English Springer Spaniel owner.

After reading your post I would blame your training abilites and not the entire english setter breed.

Please elaborate on the setter problems you have encountered? (if you even know what a english setter looks like)

[FrankGWP]

IMO Biggest difference between a well bred setter and a well bred GSP:

(1) Hair length

(2) Tale length

[Tinkhamtown]

You got me, I am a poor English Setter trainer I am sure that is it.

Most GSP were one time tell and they would have what ever you where trying to train them to do. GSP had the brains and temperament to take training corrections and they would “say why didn’t you say that is what you wanted done” and would give it to you the next time and every time after that. Good noses excellent temperament and every one turned into a great gun dog and bird hunter.

Trained lots and lots of other good pointing dog breeds that turned into excellent bird dogs and hunters.

I have not seen enough English Setters to make a breed wide statement. Sorry.

[setterguy]

Which red setter was that? Was an open championship or a Red setter only trial? To my knowledge there has never been a Red dog win a national championship in an open field.

If you trained a National Champion then you did train a dog that was at least part English setter. The Red Setter association applied in the 1960's and 70's to breed English setters back into the red setter breed to IMPROVE the breed as the breed was being left behind. That is why most red dogs have some influx of white in them, from the earlier breedings with English setters.

For whatever reason, English setters were (still are) predominantly registered with the Field Dog Stud Book (FDSB), while Irish and Gordon setters were predominantly registered with the American Kennel Club (AKC). While the AKC does have field trials for their pointing breeds, FDSB trials are definitely more for dogs that can really ramble, resulting in a genuine show of their physical prowess. The AKC also has continually placed heavy emphasis on show qualities. With its magnificent red coat, the Irish setter certainly became a crowd pleaser in the show ring. While I have nothing against that, there's no question that these dogs suffer, after generations of breeding, in most all the qualities a shooter wants in a pointing dog.

Thus was the plight of the Irish setter. Through the first half of the twentieth century this breed's hunting qualities deteriorated. A dog writer of great experience, Horace Lytle, brought this to public attention in his Field & Stream magazine dog column in 1946, suggesting that the Irish setter needed some influx of rich English setter blood if they were going to make any comeback as pointing dogs in the hunting field. There was a great uproar over this. In fact, Lytle was gone from the pages of this famous magazine a very short time later. Did he lose his job because of his views on this subject? Some claim this is so.

But Lytle had laid down the gauntlet. Ned Le Grande picked up that glove. So did others. The FDSB agreed to register these dogs, as Red Irish Setters, but only after at least so many generations had been bred. During this period meticulous records had to be kept and submitted to the FDSB until the genes were fixed and these new red setters would breed true to form.

From Gun Dog magazine

[Tinkhamtown]

Hey Setterguy, I see you live in Forest Lake, I live in Hugo and have access to birds and a field where we can shoot if you have some English Setters and would like to show me some good English Setter work.

[Tinkhamtown]

My apologies to all English Setter dogs and people I broke my grandma’s number 1 rule of “If you can’t say something good don’t say anything at all!”

Opinionated old fart (OOF)

Tink

[settersit]

setterguy, I'm a certified setterhead. I'm very interested in the red/setter cross. PM me at [email protected] My setter is 9 1/2 and looking to bring another into the fold, 90% grouse, 10% pheasant.

[setterguy]

I guess I wouldn't consider them crosses anymore, but all todays red setters do have some white dogs in their lineage. Kind of the way that almost all GSPs that are bred for the field were bred back to pointers when they were introduced in the US. Of course some of this wasn't advertised but as long as the dog can hunt, I don't care what color it is.

JBdragon will be able to tell you a little more about the red dogs than I can. I have seen plenty of them though and the one's coming out today are really nice.

[pointerspal]

Thanks for all the input. I just thought I would stir the pot. All dogs have there strengths and weeknesses. However, nothing in this world can compare to a good setter hunting grouse I don't know if its the style or just because my first love was a setter. (who was money on ruffies.) Now all we can do is wait and hope things dry up for our upland birds. hopefully we will have a good year for both ruffies and pheasents.

[croixflats]

Not to take away from the english setter or the German short hairs but the dog I have now ,witch is a Large Munsterlander,can be a better dog. The dog is bread to be an all around.She does great on grouse pheasant and even duck.

There not as hyper as the other breeds and there intincs are strong.Loyalty cant be surpassed.One thing though they take a little longer to get there point down. They are fearless when it comes to getting in the thicket.

Ive seen allot of outstanding English Setters and German Short Hairs but Im partial to the Large Munsterlander.Probly because I own one.Training is the keey and how much time you spend with the dog. If you talk to any Large Munsterlander owner nothing could be better.

[JigginIsLife]

croixflats-- i have never heard of a munsterlander before so i looked them up on the internet. quite a pretty dog, odd markings but very pretty. a few questions do they shed?? it looks like they are more of a "fluffy" dog with longer hair such as a retriever is that right?? about how big is your dog??

[croixflats]

 Originally Posted By: JigginIsLife

croixflats-- i have never heard of a munsterlander before so i looked them up on the internet. quite a pretty dog, odd markings but very pretty. a few questions do they shed?? it looks like they are more of a "fluffy" dog with longer hair such as a retriever is that right?? about how big is your dog??

You can actually get them in two different types of coats the one I have is the longer. The shorter hair doesnt shead as much. Mine will be 4 in October 4. the early years she sheds like a lab , nothing like a golden now that she's lost the puppy hair she doesnt shed nearly as much.The coat is more simular to Irish setter I would say but with curls and wavyness

She weighs a sturdy 65 lbs the height of a English setter or maybe a little taller. They are a great family dog but need to be exercised. The range of plates and ticking varies allot. Always black and white with a black head.My avatar is a picture of Minette litter she was from had twelve and had afew that all black with white ticking. Go to the Large Munsterlander club cite for a clearer picture of the breed.Blood line is controlled verry strongly. There hard to find but getting more noticed as a premier hunting dog.

Feel free to ask me more Questions I love talking about her. They are also an extremly smart dog

[uplander]

Not to spark the argument again, which was crazy talk from the get go....But I've seen a dog or two in my day..I've been involved in running and judging field trials for the past 13 years... I could give you the name of 20 -30 guys that own setters that you would love to own if you saw them run... Now it's well known that I'm grouse and setter bias, but basically I like any dog that can get the job done...Now I know there are shorthairs that can point grouse consistantly.....I've just never seen one.. Sort of like Tinks never seen a good setter

I think that this fall someone needs to show me one... So if you have one that does I would really love to see him or her....I'm not being sarcastic or trying to restart the argument I'm being sincere....Get back to me.....uplander

[pointerspal]

I have a Shorthair that did shockingly well on ruffies her first year. I'm not saying that she could keep up with some the better setters I have owned. But she held her own and showed alot of upside for only being one. I think I shot ten plus ruffies over her in her first year. She seems to have it when it comes to not bumping the birds. She seems to lock up at first sent.

[Basseyes]

Own a 12 year old setter. I'd rather take a vise grips and clamp it on my tongue and twist it until it came off than ever own another setter. Great hunting dogs but there is a reason they aren't as popular as they once were. For starters the hair. Ugh. The slobbering and drooling. Ugh. The whinnying. Ugh. Where ever they are they ain't content with it. They always want what they ain't got. Reminds me of the kid who's got a ton of talent but is burdened with ADHD. They can be fun to be around and are talented as the days is long but my word they are no fun living with. If you don't mind stuffing a dog in a kennel and not having it in the house have at them. Once again great hunting dog, but. The wife never wants another one. Was given a great dog a cousin couldn't handle any more. I'd hunted with the dog and all I can say is wow. I won't name drop but the dog was professionally trained by the game fair lady who said he was a great dog. Great dog alright. Great at hunting. But what about the other 6 months out of the year? If I can't live with a dog most of the year with out wanting to pull my hair out and shoot the dog come on. The dog didn't last long and I grew a greater appreciation for my GWG. I'm not one to say never but in this case I will hopefully never own another setter in my life. My Griffon is by far my kids ands wife's favorite dog. She's easy to handle. My 3 year old can put her on a leash and let her out. With that some might say she doesn't have the drive to hunt. To that I say go flush your ego down the toilet. Her desire is second to none in a complete package of features and complexity. A dog is nothing more or less than what we think it is other than a true companion deep in the forest of our favorite trails trying so hard at chasing their freedom of which we'll never know. I lack the knowledge of training countless dogs all but forgotten and the mind numbing wisdom that comes with it like a plumber or mechanic who can no longer stand to see another toilet or automobile. I do some how grasp the atonement of stumbling after my setter hoping to catch up with his desire for the next flush that drifts away quickly with the movement of time. He remembers it and then it's gone to him. No sentimental savoring. Just on to the next. Little regard for anything other than to continue. Blind desire with no regret. He started off pointing grouse and timber cock. He's gone on to pheasants, huns and sharptails with little effort or training from me. As his body is become older he still has the desire but the body is fighting a losing battle with time. He offers looks of frustration at not having the strength in his muscle to continue. What can I do? Nothing more than I've already done. Accept the fact I've never owned him. He's always owned me.

[2thepointsetters]

I'd rather take a vise grips and clamp it on my tongue and twist it until it came off than ever own another setter. Great hunting dogs but there is a reason they aren't as popular as they once were. For starters the hair. Ugh. The slobbering and drooling. Ugh. The whinnying. Ugh. Where ever they are they ain't content with it. They always want what they ain't got. Reminds me of the kid who's got a ton of talent but is burdened with ADHD. They can be fun to be around and are talented as the days is long but my word they are no fun living with. already done.

hahaha judge a whole breed because of YOUR ONE DOG. I have a setter in the house and he is a great dog. The only actual fact out of your post is that they shed. My setter has free range of the house all the time even when we are gone and the other dogs are locked up. Your post just makes me laugh.

[Tinkhamtown]

Grandma’s number 1 rule of “If you can’t say something good don’t say anything at all!”

[setterguy]

My dogs haven't been in kennels since they were 4 months old during the day and I don't have any problems with whining, slobbering or drooling. I think you got a lemon, check your warranty. We shave our setters in the summer and of course have some dog hair in the house, but I knew that going into it.

[2thepointsetters]

We shave our setters in the summer.

From head to tail, even the flag? The hair grows back by grouse season? I can only imagine what a shaved setter looks like