Muskie Lakes vs. Pike Lakes?

[fishcast]

I was reading some real interesting stuff on the spearing forum about value of our northern pike. I personally think northern pike are undervalued and underrated to most people, and I personally think much of it being to the fact that most lakes are loaded with stunted "snakes" rather than having a balanced population with some "gators." And after it got me thinking more, and I have a couple questions that I would like to hear opinions, or any information about studies on this stuff if somebody has it. I am in college right now majoring in fisheries biology and this stuff really interests me.

My first question is based off of something I have heard, that "big muskie and big northern pike usually don't occur in the same waters." I currently don't find this true from what I have seen, but I am wondering if it is actually true in general, or completely case by case for each individual water, or not true at all?

Second question, back to the underrated northern piece, big northerns I would guess would be just as fun and challenging as muskie. However, it seems most lakes are getting stocked with muskie for the "muskie angler" looking for more big fish lakes rather than managed for big northern pike (although I do know there is more management now for big northerns like special regs in MN which is good to hear). For instance, I have heard some stuff in this forum and elsewhere about stocking Gull Lake with muskies, to take some pressure off of other popular skie lakes and possibly other reasons. (Although I did hear there was a muskie caught in a northern tourney or something in Gull) I am currently slightly disappointed in hearing this cause the Gull Chain has good sized northerns in it. Do "muskie anglers" not very often target northern pike? To me it seems like almost every big lake I have fished or hear much of has muskie in it, and some muskie anglers are talking about wanting as many muskie lakes as possible. Why make so many "muskie lakes" , when you could manage more specifically for big northern pike? (probably would save a lot of money too?) I do also realize that some lakes might have trouble growing large northerns and be much better suited for muskie (water temps and other things probably).

Also with the new rule not allowing fishing for muskies after Dec 15 or whatever, I would like more lakes where I can jig large lures and drop down big baits through the ice targeting northerns, and not feel like I could get in trouble fishing for skies.

I am not trying to start a heated debate or anything, I just really would like to hear some opinions on questions I have.

By the way I have never caught a muskie, although I would love to pick up muskie fishing later on when I can expand my fishing equipment.

Thanks for anything you have to say

[Muskiefool]

Some of the designated Muskie Lakes are trophy pike lakes as well like Mille Lacs for instance, if your looking for a trophy pike lake good luck, Red is close, their are a few lakes that hold some pigs but not enough IMHO.

One DNR Biologist last month challenged anyone at the meeting to find a pike lake that is better now than it was 50 years ago he stated there are NONE, all of our pike fisheries are showing signs of trouble and we need to protect what we have for the future of all of our pastimes, this is not a Anti Spearing anti fishing thing, the lakes are not an endless bounty where the DNR stocks 2 10#ers every time we kill, I like that the new long range plan addresses Large Pike and Ive heard the new draft contains allot more pike information and plans.

If we don't change what we're doing feel good Quotes like "Take a kid fishing" or "Take a kid spearing" will be meaningless when we have nothing to show for our efforts but a few old pics of some dead fish and a smile on our faces, we need to choose what we take and appreciate releasing and watching the big ones swim by and away for tomorrow.

[MUSKY18]

I know that ther are some monster pike in lakes that also hold Muskies. Last summer while fishing on Mille Lacs, not long after I boated a 46" Muskie, my brother landed a 41" pike about 200 yards farther down the weedline. Has happened on Leech as well. Back some years ago, I had a huge muskie follow up to the boat twice in a row, and then about 100 yards down the shore, I caught a 25lb pike. This was on Little Boy. So i would say, Yes, big pike do live in the same waters as big muskie.

I would also say that one of the reasons that big pike are not as common as big muskies is that the majority of big muskies are put back and not harvested as often as big pike. Not to start WWIII, but how many big pike do you hear about that are speared through the ice during the winter? Does this have an affect on the "gator" population??? I don't know enough, so I can't say if it does or doesn't.

The other thought process that I had is are enough people actually harvesting the little hammer handles? I know on the lakes were they have pike regulations trying to get big pike, they recommend that you harvest all little pike. For myself, I don't because I don't eat pike and I am not going to harvest a fish just to get it out of the system. If I was going to eat it, sure no problem.

just my .02

[MuskyBrian]

hmm...a few things here.

You made a reference that "most lakes are being stocked by Muskies" To my knowledge, although there has been discussion for some years now, there has been far more talk then actual action when it comes to stocking new Musky lakes. On this site there was a recent figure that there are now something like over 120,00 musky anglers in the state right now. That doesn't take into account out of state anglers as well. Now take a look at that number and look at how many musky lakes are currently in MN. A lot of those lakes are also in parts of the state that many of us don't even frequent. Now take into account how many of our preferred bodies of water are getting hammered. I remember last year fishing a lake that requires a 7 Mile drive on a one way road in the "middle of nowhere" to fish a puddle of a lake that already had 3-4 other musky boats on it..

With all that being said, it's hard to have the time to worry about Pike. Yeah, a huge 40"+ pike is nice, but does it give anywhere near the same thrill as a Musky? Not for me, and also not for the majority of people I have shared a boat with, both in MN and also Canada.

One last thing, I also notice you said you have never caught a Musky. About 8-10 years ago, I feel like I would feel the same way as you. But once you get that first good sized Musky in the boat, all of a sudden things change

TRUST ME

[Nick Kuhn]

I really don't think pike can get truly stunted. Read a lot of the MN DNR's lake studies and almost across the board you see "Most fish sampled were Age Class 3" when it comes to pike. Seldom if ever do you see "Fish up to Age class 15 were sampled, yet none were larger than 35 inches". While all lakes are not going to be able to turn out 45"= pike, just about every lake should be able to hit 40.

There is a pond just up the road from where I grew up that the DNR had once used as a rearing pond. It's about 7 acres and does not have any typical pike forage (no perch, no panfish, no shiners/shad/cisco/sucker). It received almost no fishing pressure (completely surrounded by private property). Yet walking around it you would occasionally find the carcass of fish into the mid to upper 30s. While I'm not a biologist my guess is frogs and tadpoles and the like fed the small pike, and the small pike fed the larger pike. Cannibalism likely was balancing the population.

I would say that the problem is anglers not letting them live long enough. Even where there are special regulations for pike they are occasionally ignored which really nullifies the regulations. It's kind of a shame because catching mid 30 and larger pike should be an almost daily occurrence for the serious fisherman.

I've always wondered what it would be like if the DNR set aside a strictly catch and release lake for all species. The problem is this would never pass, save some small remote lake that has no lakeshore owners and no public access. It'd be a great way to promote CPR if photos of big fish from said CPR lake kept turning up in the paper.

[Tom7227]

I've spent a lot of time reading the various threads on the spearing/angling debate.

I, and others, have suggested that people go and look at pictures on FM as proof that spearers target big fish. The hole in that logic? How many people post pictures of the little fish they caught? I don't think that's the way it works in any forum on any subject. Show me the medal, the rack, the length, the report card. You don't advertise failure or mediocrity.

In a class I took - maybe advanced hunter ed - there was a section about the four stages of being a hunter. It was something like 1 shooting anything that flies 2. seeing how many you can get 3. getting into the ID, habits, habitat etc. 4 sitting back and watching most of the time and not pulling the trigger very often. The point that was stressed was that every hunter goes into at least one or more of these phases. Some stay in one their whole life, some move to others. But most importantly to those who enjoy the outdoors is the need to realize that there is nothing good nor bad about any one phase. A 4 is not 'better' than a 3.

Perhaps this needs to be applied to the issue of spearing vs. angling. Can it be thought of in terms of who is superior the rifle hunter, the person who uses a black powder, a person with compund bow, or someone with a recurve? The answer is no one is superior. It is how you chose to do it.

I urge all of you to go to the study and read it and learn what you can. It is at

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/fisheries/muskie_pike/muskiepike_2020.pdf

It is an interesting read, and gives us all something to think about.

Thanks for your time.

[cjac]

This is an interesting topic, thanks for the posts.

First off, we are lucky to have a state fishery managed by the MN DNR as we do. Where else can an angler have the opportunity to catch fish like we can, both in greater Minnesota and the TC Metro area? Plus, we have a state with legislation that takes into consideration the interests/concerns of the general public while balancing the economic windwalls all at once? Sportsmen/women generate a lot of revenue, both from in-state and from non-residents. We are well represented.....and have the avenues to voice our thoughts, our voices are encouraged and heard.

Muskie/Pike lake balance: Many of the lakes regarded as "premier" lakes individually for one species are one in the same. LOTW, Mille Lacs, St Croix River, Minnetonka to name a select few, are capable of and do produce both big pike and muskie, not to overlook bass and walleyes too. I've caught some very nice pike in "muskie" lakes, take Mille Lacs and 'tonka to name a couple. I had a mid-30s pike and a high 30s tiger within 1 hour on a metro lake in my backyard, not bad, eh?

We have a great resource, managed by well educated, informed, and both professionally and personally interested representatives who are open to our suggestions. Bottom line is we are there to use the resource as we are entitled to.

The topic of spearing has been mentioned, as it is a component of the DNR management and a part of the equation in Pike/Muskie management. Fishing Minnesota (FM) created a forum for Bowfishing/Spearing in recognition of that as an interst last year. I'd encourage you all to look there too, lots of great information and FM staff that has a vested interest in the same issues, management of resources and the best interst of us all.

Chris

[Tom7227]

The discussion on this issue is occurring on two other threads. Go to http://www.fishingminnesota.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/119/page/1 to pick up the other threads. It is interesting to read the perspectives of both anglers and spear fishermen. Also interesting to look at the pictures posted on the spearing thread.

This one is a hard one to figure out.

[fishcast]

My original post wasn't directly about spearing at all, I have commented on that subject in the spearing forum, and it is a real interesting discussion. Although I feel spearing is somewhat related cause I think it pretty much puts northern pike in the same class as "rough" fish, but not what I intended this to this post to be about.

Mostly just wondering why some "muskie anglers" seem like they want to stock every lake possible with muskie, when there could already be good sized northern pike in a lake, for example like Gull Lake. I know what I am saying definately isn't true with all muskie anglers, but it kind of seems like a trend. Also I know there is a difference in the fishing between the two, like more follows and probably more topwater action in midsummer, and northerns don't get massive like muskies can in central MN. But I guess it just seems some muskie anglers don't care all that much about northern pike, and could care less about fishig for large northerns in MN, and it seems overall like Northerns are lacking the respect they should have as a game fish if you ask me.

[Nick Kuhn]

fishcast,

In lakes with both pike and muskie I tend to catch more pike. It's fun to watch them blast the topwaters as well. A big fish is exciting regardless of it's species. It's just without special regulations pike size structure is really hampered. In 20+ years of fishing I have never caught a 40" pike (38" is my PB), nor have I seen one boated or even brought boatside. However in only my 2nd muskie trip ever I managed to hook up (and proceed to lose boatside) a fish that would have gone low to mid 40's. Now if there were lakes around here like say Lake Mendota in Madison that have muskie like pike regulations (1 pike larger than 40 inches) then targeting them would be more worthwhile.

[Scott M]

Can you have lakes with both large muskie and pike? Yes. Is this a goal that is easy to accomplish? Absolutely not. Assuming we have the right forage base to accommodate both, the right slot limits or at least some handle on fishing mortality, and other requirements, we could have a fishery for both.

Maintenance at that level is pretty tricky. Pike usually spawn before musky, and if they share the same spawning locations, you have this little problem of pike getting a 2 week advantage, growing like gangbusters, and feeding on young of the year musky. Usually you have one species or the other that dominates the niche. In some cases, like Mille Lacs, there is room for both.

As far as stunted fisheries, it comes down to how its defined. I would define stunting as a lake full of small hammerhandle fish. Do some fish not grow to their potential? Absolutely. But one has to understand what that potential is. If we are talking about a lake with cisco, suckers, and redhorse swimming around, we've got a lake full of little cheeseburgers. If we are talking about a lake full of bluegill and perch, all the sudden its different. Those fish have to work for their food. It's a lot more work to to eat spiny fish than soft-rayed forage. Which would you rather run a mile for, a nice double cheeseburger or a tray of crackers and cheese (don't forget to remove the toothpick). The potential of our lakes are completely different, which is why you see special regs on certain lakes and not on others.

Do some of those small lakes give up an occasional big fish? You bet, but removing that fish is like taking out the king or queen in chess. It's hard to find a replacement...it takes a lot of trophic conversion to produce a fish of that caliber on a lake fulfilling those criteria.