Timber wolf lottery permits?

[Scott M]

Quote:

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What legally constitutes information? If the DNR gets reports from a few citizens of cougar sightings, is that really "information?" I don't know. Could simply be heresay from people uneducated in the ID of bigger cats. Is the DNR legally (or ethically) compelled to pass on what it might simply consider rumors from sources that are not known to be reliable? Might it not actually be irresponsible to pass on such stories to the public, being unsure of their accuracy?

When does what the DNR hears become information and not just what they hear? I'm not splitting hairs. When you're talking public information and the legal system or FOIA, distinctions like this become important. The DNR, like any public agency subject to FOIA and open meetings/records laws, must constantly make decisions about what they should or should not talk about to Tom,

Dick

or Harry.

The question brassman raised about the DNR keeping back information is a very broad one open to a host of different interpretations.

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And what is public? Fisheries Biologist X trap nets 4 state record walleye in lake x. Does it make the cover of the Outdoor News? No. It's public information, but not everything is trumpeted to the public. But, having said that, ask and ye shall receive. That information is available in a lake survey report. Just about any and all collected information, budgets, you name it is information.

Recommendations and studies tend to be hush-hush until they are official. But you can't blame the DNR for that. They have X,000 workers and you can't be talking out of both sides of the mouth (they already get accused of that when they do come to consensus). Eventually recommendations and studies too become public information. Most management decisions and jurisdiction falls into the DNR's mission to conserve and manage the state's natural resources, and anyone can challenge those decision in a court of law.

[livintofish]

This is an interesting topic.....in response to 4 wandering eyes.....several thoughts on wolves, human perception, and learning from the past. For one thing I would venture to guess that many folks can't even tell a coyote from a grey wolf(timber wolf) and they hear something howling and its automatically a wolf. Imagine that in a society where people tell there kids the story of the BIG BAD wolf. People fear wolves plain and simple, and they shouldn't, they should however respect them as any wildlife especially large carnivorous types. Much like sharks and others that strike fear into the hearts of people these animals are beautiful and cause very little harm in most cases. I have done some pretty extensive research on t wolves and the reintroduction out West(yellowstone area) this whole wolf thing that people are just starting to pick up on here has been going on out West for much longer and ranchers surround the area, with cattle, sheep, and other vulneable livestock. After researching many resources I found that even the USDA (an organization who is surely for the rancher, and probably hates the reintro of wolves) said wolves were one of the smallest causes of livestock death out there, even more sheep died on their back then were killed by wolves. Coyotes however were shown to cause many more of these killings and have even been known to chase down wolves, which are bigger. There are such things as problem animals....the lone wolf....most people have heard of them, most don't understand why they are dangerous. A wolf that is somehow "loned" or otherwise removed, seperated from the pack is a mean vicious animal. Why, cause it has to be. Wolves are normally pack hunters and have much more difficulty cornering and catching prey. These animals are often skinny and knarly looking because it is very very tough for them to survive. This kind of an animal is a threat to livestock and humans, all it can think about is eating all the time, due to the difficulty it has hunting. Also the whole deer thing....I love deer hunting as much as the guy who goes out and persues the majestic whitetail deer. I doubt very much that all the deer are getting eaten up by wolves, this is just an easy thing to say. Numbers of t wolves are climbing yes,...I should say recovering and they will not get out of control, nature is too good to let this happen, only us humans are capable of throwing nature way way off. Wolves will reach a certain level and the population will stablize as with all animals, just like coyotes. Other animal populations will respond accordingly, like having more offspring, renesting, etc.... There will always be cycles of good year classes of animals, and varying mortality based on predation, harsh winter, food availablility and so on. Poplations only ever are exterminated or severely deminished due to us, humans. Depending on who you talk to some people have said they have seen deminishing deer numbers in recent years, some have remained stable this will happen. Our party saw and shot more then ever, higher then average anyway opening day. On the way out there one of the guys said "hey, if you see a timber wolf...shoot it they are bad animals and destroying the herd", this is the most asinine comment I have ever heard, and illegal. Nobody ever stops to think that.....we have had a string of the mildest winters in a long time in the midwest, deer numbers have been great, we have gotten spoiled by that, limits have been set high, even with rifle early antlerless tags. A LOT of deer have been shot over the last few years, and population estimates on deer are believe it or not much harder to conduct acurately then those on say walleye. Everybody thought (wrongly mind you) in the early 1900s that all predatory animals were bad and efforts were made to restore them by some of the most intellegent woodsman/ecologists of recent times, now people view them as a threat again........at least the ones who haven't done their research. And everyone who thinks they are helping control the predator populations by shooting coyotes/trapping.....news is its not controlling them its called compensatory mortality and basically any time one thing is diminished it allows itself to come back just as strong. For instance shoot yotes food supply goes up for other yotes, competition between yotes is also lessened, more pups will be born and have more resources to survive(I'm not against hunting or trapping just to clarify, just pointing out misconception...). Its how nature works, it's a cycle, at Red lake(URL)crappies are plentiful for a number of years and its slowly turning over to walleye. It happens everywhere.

and Goose....

no I would not pay the fine if I knew I was right and did not break the law, and I like your fire to not cave in your beliefs to others, that is important. There is however another thing that is important, and that is not having preconcieved notions of how things are, and to always research and find out that things really are that way and not just because we think they are. Speaking latin and going to college have nothing to do with being a good biologist, having a passion for it and learning what is truely needed to manage resources(which college guides, but does not grant). I'm really quite glad you bring up waterfowl as an issue, it is a highly misunderstood one. I will leave Delta and other agencies out of this and focus on the facts, but briefly discuss predator control. If you read the above part discussing compensatory mortality here it rings true again, see it applies to all wildlife situations and is a basic ecological principal. Firstly you kill off a bunch off skunks, coons, etc.... the population will bounce right back, it's simply not a solution. Predator control in other aspects such as electric fences surrounding nesting areas are VERY EXPENSIVE use energy and lots of it, and still do not work in practice like they do in theory. I have seen some abandoned and not functional. Might I suggest something much more fundamental and necessary to any animals survival....habitat, this always gets overlooked cause no body wants to give up good land to wildlife, but when the wildlife is gone then they start talking. I wish I had some exact or at least close stats about wetland and habitat loss in MN, it is stagering. The birds don't have the natural habitat they need to survive in large populations, all of there habitat is gone or so fragmented that they are not as successful at nesting and chosing good places to live. So here is many hundreds of acres of farmland and a little patch for fowl...a wetland and some grassland for nesting. Where to you think every skunk, coon, and fox is at feeding time. Sure as heck not in the 500 acres of adjacent corn, they are planning the nest ambush on this little square of fowl habitat, and we have made it real easy for them. Natural large unbroken stretches of habitat is what any animal needs to survive well. I'll finish with a response to this quote, I'm sure this is getting long.

"I enjoy and respect discussions with others its how we discover. Its common knowledge we have big cats in the state and wolves doing damage..... "

It is also maybe not so common knowledge that we have big humans in the state doing damage.....Simply said whether you are into watching, photographing, shooting or otherwise enjoying wildlife we need to look more closely at what the animals need to support healthy large populations of impressively beautiful and muture animals. We are starting to now look at what we are doing to the envirnment now only because everyone is scared of global warming(climate change) and need for energy to support our lifestyles. We have been killing species off for years and not thinking twice about it. Just some food for thought, none of this was directed at any one person just comments provided.

[fishermann222]

Yellowstone hmmmm

livintofish when you did your research about the reintroduction of wolves out there, what did you find out about the impact to the elk heard? I know a former ADFG (alaska departement of fish and game) bio who is currently working down there.

[Muthagoose]

Good points fish..

But open nest squares the main problem is when the Biologist drag a chain between 2 wheelers to locate the nest and then put a human scented flag on a pole marking them.... I asked the manager to join me one evening after they did their research and ya know what those friendly Yotes followed the trails and went right to each nest. Unlike deltas policy waiting to see the hatch result swimming DU and the feds think this is good. I dont.JMO

When I asked manager Ron Cole about the program future he replied that due to the sensitive nature of the "Bird watchers ect" the program was being dropped..Now they use the $ donated to the Bigstone office from DU to by cone flower projects ect or as I was informed as the manager see's fit. Nice how a developed waterfowl refuge is only a way stop. However they continue to build "Pools" and advertise them as new nesting areas. More like coon buffets...

Considering all the points made about animal learning capabilities You would think they would consider this.

So you've done a little time doing research and may not be a looking glass observer on wolves I respect that.Its all to easy to stack opinions into fact.Most havent had their hands on a wolf or been closer than the glass at the wolf center in their life.

I had the oportunity to travel trapping for the feds even got in on the discussion of how to deal with those tattooed wolves in YS.. It was to be a covert op.. So did they ever go on it? .. The clock and $ were not there for me.. I had a guiding and rehab outfit to run

As for big humans doing damage your darn right..We make more people but we cant make more nature. Its almost a shame the way lakes have grown yet its a needed development tax base.No one ever thinks of the effect on nature when the plop a house and develop the yard just who/what they have just squeezed out...

As for wolves eating all the deer never happen they "learn " to hit easier food sources. The opportunist in them its what gets them into trouble on live stock.

Yotes killing wolves..Yup I believe it considering the possibilities of hybrids and as you stated old and loners. Im glad you brought that up seeing some think preds dont hunt preds.. But isnt that natures call?

Global warming is a problem that is going to get worse. Considering the Pica a small part of "a" chain it's loosing ground fast as well. When you see countries planting flags on ocean floor its not good..

Like you fish I base my knowledge on field time 25 years of self employed observations. Its been a good life being in the field nearly every day, well till as of lately now I teach a few months of the year for toy money...

I find the comments of those who are in the field interesting.

I feel for those who see it only on the weekend with the passion as we do its a sin. I remember what it used to be like to look out a window and wish.. If given the time most would be out there every day and have a clearer vision...

I never take rebuttal comments personal and enjoy the discussion however its getting long winded. Its all to easy to type those little words in reply.

I apologize for my contribution,being raised under the creed better to die with honor than to surrender in shame is how the fire stays lit in my cave.

[Steve Foss]

Some excellent points by muthagoose and others.

And since people who spend time in the field with wild wolves (especially long term) are a tiny, tiny percentage of the public, it's especially important those with long experience talk about what they've seen and offer their interpretations of those observations.

Equally as important that the vast, vast majority of people who have never seen a wild wolf or been close to them listen to those observations, if not necessarily to the opinions that accompany them.

It will be, after all, that huge majority that has the most pull when it comes time for the Minnesota Legislature to approve or not approve a wolf trapping/hunting season.

As for experience, people who look upon wolves from afar (TV, movies, books, newspapers, occasional trip to IWC), probably would believe my 4-5 years hard work in the woods around Ely trying to get close to wolves (and only occasionally succeeding) has some value as field experience. Those who have been in close contact with wolves for decades probably wouldn't see much value in it. It has been my great pleasure and challenge these last years to put all that reading about wolves to the test out in the woods. Can't say I've necessarily learned a lot yet, but it's been fun.

[Craig_S]

The following information session is at Bemidji State:

"Wolves and Mountain Lions in Minnesota - Facts, Uncertainty and Fiction"

Presenting will be John Erb, a wolf / furbearer biologist with the Department of Natural Resources Forest Wildlife Research Group, Grand Rapids. Erb will present current information about the status, distribution and management of wolves in Minnesota, followed by a review of what natural resource professionals know about mountain lions in Minnesota and surrounding states. The presentation is designed to be of interest to the general public, landowners, and hunters as well as natural resource professionals. Erb has been employed with the DNR for 10 years, having spent seven of those years in his current position. He holds a Ph.D. from the University of Wyoming. The presentation is scheduled from 3 to 4 p.m. on Monday, December 17. More information and the full schedule of Natural Resources Consortium events are available online.

Assuming John can be trusted , it might be informative.

Craig

[Ferny]

Brassman, I too have seen turkeys in pine Co...except when hunting them By the way there are plenty of turkeys in the bordering counties of WI. Last time I checked they could fly and I didn't see a big fence at the border.

Mutha, shh...what was that??? only kiddin ya, don't hurt me.

Everybody, I used to go down to the DNR building and dig around their fisheries dept files (pre awesome HSOforum). They would bring out every file I asked for. I have been there since and have always been treated like they worked for me not above me! I usually pick the CO's brain every time I get stopped too, they are a wealth of info. Don't forget about the forestry guy's also they are in the woods a lot. No conspiracies here.

I seem to remember reading that nobody believed reports about Lynx in MN also. Didn't they finally found proof in scratching post traps baited with lure? It just took time.

I do think there is a lag time for most of the info the DNR has to make it to press. I think with fisheries it's over 1 year to make it onto the web ie. lake surveys.

I have yet to find any DNR employees being deceitful to me in the 20 years I have dealt with them.

Would I shoot a wolf if there was a season...why not?

It would make an awesome wall hanging! peta would love that last comment

Ferny.

[livintofish]

Fisherman222,

There are many aspects that are affecting the elk in the greater yellowstone area. One of the main concerns now being brucellosis (a disease that causes aborted fetuses),this is present in elk, bison, and cattle of the area. The elk population in the area has historically been very high and crowded in the park, due to it being a refuge from hunters which lined the outside of the park. In the park overbrowsing is also a big issue and elk have struggled to find food in winter, sparking managers feeding them. Elk hunters out West are talking about wolves being the demise of the high elk populations much like some do here in MN about wolves killing vast numbers of whitetail. Wolves do kill some elk, thats an obvious fact, but the other thing people don't think of is how they are acting as more of a natural control, and curbing many elk deaths due to starvation due to high population density and that also slows the spread and effects brucellosis has on the herd. Since wolves reintro of course the elk have been displaced a bit they no longer have the park as a safe refuge cause now in turn wolves can(but do not frequently) hunt them anywhere. By the same token if you think about this it is a: making them tougher to hunt by being corraled in the park with hunters skirting the borders; b: causing hunters to think that populations are much lower then they are, just because the herds have spread out more. Population densities in the park were too high for the avialable food supply anyway. I guess the thing to always remember is that any time a animal is reintroduced that means that the animal did historically occur in this range before and we presently have elk there and deer in MN, neither of these animals have been even close to threatened even when wolf densities were high. People will see some difference and the animals may be tougher to hunt with more carnivorous potential predators in the woods, much like deer and such are tougher to come by after their opening day of firearms season there out there just a little wiser to being hunted. hope that makes sense the way I worded everything.

[fishermann222]

liventofish i would love to read some of the studies you have pulled your info from. can you please give me the links to them?

Thanks

[fishermann222]

Livingtofish i just spoke to a friend who use to be a bio in Alaska working on wolf management and is now working out west in the lower 48. He said the wolves primary prey currently is the elk. He said disease has not been a factor in the decline of the elk population anytime recently. I have some studies and reports being mailed to me. If they are good I will scan them and send them your way. THey are from Bio's from some of the states out west.

Of course wolves once roamed the areas long ago. And i think its great they are back, however they were hunted before, just as they should be now. The other thing to consider is less elk to hunt means less money coming in to fund fish and game in those states, which in turn means poorer management of the resources, which leads to MAJOR problems.

THe second paragraph is my personal opinion, the first is straight out of the bio's mouth.

[jaydog]

for the price u can do your self cheaper we did 3 years go the equipment pays for it self the frist year

ps recipe comes from foley locker and its great

[livintofish]

Fman222,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, I have been very busy with studies and have not had time to mess with FM. Glad your still interested in talking about this, it will be nice to see what your friend has to say as well. Where is he working exactly and has he published anything on pred/prey relationship stuff? I'd be interested, as well as whatever your getting mailed. It's not my main area of study, but still very interesting to me as are all things about nature. I did get a couple links that I think you will find interesting, I'll post at the bottom, there is much much I have looked at which I did not save to this computer and don't have time right now to find the hard copies. What I have here is more related to other misconceptions of gray wolves, and not specific to their predation of elk, some is. Anyway a couple things if you want to look into this further on your own I got a few for ya. First off general disease is not the issue, but look up brucellosis, if its not a big deal you wont find anything on it to do with elk, bison, and cattle; but I can tell you there will be a huge list even on a generic search like google(jstor, bioone, ....are better for reputable sci. articles but you can only get the abstract w/out a subscription). Another thing "feed lots, Jackson WY", lots of gov. dollars going out to feeding wild elk, and not for no reason. Now like you said in your post about "this is my opinion, and this is from the bio" understandable that you value his opinion and its hard to do that with some yahoo named livintofish on FM. Thats good we should always be sure of our sources, there are some bad ones around. I use reputable sources, be they major gov orgs, other nature conservancy type orgs, and reputable science (pubs). There is some opinion in just about everything, including what biologists say. The important thing is that the "opinion" be based on strong ecological and scientific principals. I am a student in bio, ecology....going for PhD soon, have had a chance to work with some great scientists already and studied ecology and the likes for several years interupted by military obligation. Something like wolf reintroducton and whether or not we should be shooting them, or the elk for that matter is a rooted issue(I do like hunting by the way, just enjoy keeping all nature around too ). Managing nature and people together is one of the toughest things out there to do successfully due to these complexities that we overlook due to technology in our lives. So with this what I am saying is, one cannot simply say "wolves are eating all the elk" and merely look at that there is a complex system of interactions going on there and wolves, elk, and people aren't all that are involved either. Brucellosis, overabundant elk herd, wolves eating elk, wolves eating livestock, coyotes eating more livestock, and elk, vegatation coming back with less elk to overbrowse, species relating to that veg. coming back..... the list goes on. All concerns and all happening, the fact is there are so many facts we as humans are always tying to study and learn more and even the best scientists/biologsts don't know all and thats what makes them the best....never ceasing to learn. I am going in lots of directions, sorry about that, not trying to sound preachy either, I'm just passionate about such things. Back to elk.... So the herd was close or exceding its "carrying capacity" which means the herd was on the brink of huge problems. With a major natural preator removed and other habitat mods the elk will/did flourish. When the population gets too high they will soon crash! It was happening, overbrowsing and need for food lots, disease and other things eventually WILL bring the herd down. Now wolves are doing it and it will all balance with good managment and natures way of always supporting life. Also remember things are still balancing it's only been 10 years since reintro. Also wolves roamed not so long ago, it hasn't been that long (70 years). One other thing ...(I didnt quote outa your last post but I'm answering it now, as you can tell) Wolves were not hunted, they were destroyed by means of poison, shooting in mass numbers, trapping and what ever else it took to totally kill the population. I have no problem with hunting wolves as long as there are plenty of them. Also, hunting doesn't control predator populations. I believe I posted about compensatory mortality and such previously check that out. Its just like coyotes everyone thinks they are "thinning the herd" shooting and trapping a few. They just come back, less competion, more resources available, bigger litters this type of phenomenon occurs in many species in different ways. Like I said just trying to show the complexities. It wont totally kill elk hunting, but I do strongly agree this is a problem.....I also think this is a much bigger problem than hunting licences sold, the environment we all love needs help but the very people who love it complain when licence fees are raised a couple bucks, there are posts like this on FM, crikey! I'm rich by no means, just know whats important to me, other means need to be made to fund our resource managment. That is my Opinion! Wow this took a while still got lots to do, well talk soon. I really want to make it up to AK soon well have to talk about that some time.

links:

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ws/nwrc/is/07pubs/gese075.pdf

http://search.usda.gov/search?q=cache:suE7_5fiFYoJ:http://www.nass.usda.gov/wy/internet/livestock/sheep.pdf+livestock+loss&access=p&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&client=usda&num=10&site=usda&proxystylesheet=OC

or

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p/_s.7_0_A/7_0_1OB?navid=SEARCH&mode=simple&q=livestock+loss&site=usda

http://www.greateryellowstone.org/media/pdf/Wolf_report-GYC-Peck.pdf

http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/severity/index.htm

[Muthagoose]

Livin,, your right about pred bounce back after culling.

There are few people that continually harvest yotes year after year.You had more people harvesting during the past active fur trade era than than at any time...

Economy/gas prices have effect..

If year after year we kept on them they wouldn't have such noticeable increase.

The incentive and talents are being lost.

[fishermann222]

Thanks for the post livin i will read some of that over. The man was a bio in alaska for a number of years, highly respected, and he is now a bio in Idaho. I believe he is their wolf expert currently.

Just to throw out a few numbers on the reintroduction of the wolves.

We went from 35 wolves introduced in idaho in 1995 to a minimum of 720 that we have counted as of April ( prior to pupping). So we have pile.

I am also well aware of the eradication, yes eradication, of the wolves in the past, i disagree with that, however i do believe there should be a season on them to manage them.

[fishermann222]

one other thing about license fees and such.

I have 6 great friends who are still bio's in alaska and they don't make HALF of what they should make for the work they do. I will agree on that 1000 times over.

I totally agree iwth fee increases to better fund the management of our resources.