Problems on the brule...

[bwtrout]

Lota, I have to agree with everything you stated above (I'm a "worm dunker" and pack in a few beers )

I also want to add that I view a lot of these disagreements on FM regarding hunting and fishing styles to be fruitless. I personally feel everyone that has been around FM who reads and contributes; all hold the same outdoor values concerning CPR, ethical standards, respect for the outdoors, respect for others, and respect for the laws (not including political and social views of course )

It would be nice to see more constructive criticism when someone posts a frowned on practice, but everyones a critic, myself included.

[scifisher]

When I went to New Zealand this summer, they had all of the "unwritten" rules written in their regulations for the river. This meant that you had to do your homework if you were going to fish various lakes or rivers. Some may find that annoying, but I found it handy because I didn't make a total butthead of myself.

Now, I've got a couple of questions...

1. I moved up to this region seven years ago and I knew nothing about trout fishing when I gave it a try. One of the solutions, other then reading books, was to go to the internet to see if I could connect with others to help me understand how to do it and maybe find a few places that were more productive then others. Is this a "proper" use of sites like this?

2. How much do you guys think that threads on FM really harm specific waters? Wouldn't posting any information for people like me in my above point and question qualify as harmful?

[bwtrout]

My take on it:

1. No, this is the perfect place to connect, learn, and share.

I also knew a train wreck was headed in the thread from the start.

2. There has been lots of similar "debates" on this subject all over the board (I've been involved in a few) I'm willing to say that; the general thinking on FM is techniques are the key.

Showing that you hooked into some nice Browns on the Brule and talking about what was working for you is enough. If you were to post photos of a boat load of slab crappies and tell everyone you caught them on Pike with chubs in 20fow I guarantee the landing would be full tomorrow and if the bite continued Pike would turn into a empty cesspool

[lotalota]

Hey Sci,

I moved to the area a few years ago too. I ran through mags, books, and websites (still do). They are all helpful in the learning. I consider FM to less geared to the migratory rivers than are other sites that are dedicated to the great lakes steelheader. They also have pretty strict guidelines about what is posted and even place restrictions on posting in areas recognized to be sensitive. That isn't defined here so whether that is the way to go or not is up to whomever is posting. I feel that more river detail in reports than level, clarity, temp isn't really necessary. Once you spend some time on the river you'll know what's up with that info. There are stories about how high traffic forums have impacted small fisheries in Michigan. A near to home example (though not river related) is the phenomenon of the 57 Chevy Bomber. That stick had been a good one but not clamored for until it got a little press on the boards. POOF, gone from the shelves of Marine General. Seriously, they hung on pegs for a while and then were gone in a flash. Apply that to a report from the north shore saying something like "we stuck 9 for 11 on beadheads and yarn" and see what happens. It only takes a handful of guys to show up on a North Shore stream to make it a crowd. Whether it harms the specific water is a judgment call. Saying the Lakers are in 90 fow over 120 fow in water temps around 48 degrees helps narrow the search but won't put other boats where you were. Saying we boxed a bunch trolling the mouth of the Lester dragging silver/green sticks will certainly put other boats on the water you're working (and they'll be dragging silver/green sticks). The river isn't as open as the lake. Everybody is looking for more productive water but most hits are guys just looking for the info and not trying to connect and enjoy the community that FM provides. Maybe just keep that in mind in the reports.

Lota Lota...

[thistlekicker]

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(this thread in itself has around 1,200 hits).

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Bored at work + unable to get out often and reduced to fishing vicariously = probably about 1000 of those hits from my IP address

sorry to drag it back to this but I have to comment those fish look more than a little stressed. I'm not against grip-n-grin per se, but when there's blood involved, ick. In the world of fish porn this would border on a snuff film.

[Quickstrike]

Bruledriter, I never was attacking you or anyone that uses bait. I was saying that I would rather have them lift the bait ban on the upper river and then ban treble hooks, because they damage the fish much worse. By lifting the ban on bait it would give people who did not flyfish a reasonable opportunity to fish the river without trebles. Please make sure you understand my posts before you put words in my mouth. As most people on here probally know by now, I only flyfish for steelhead. This is not to make myself feel more accomplished than other anglers or to be snoody. I enjoy it! That's it! I feel there is more of a challenge to it and there's an even larger learning curve than fishing the Brule already has to begin with. I have a lot of friends that fish with bait, and although we go back and forth jokingly, they know me better than to take any of it personally. I make some comments to DethRoe and Catfish hunter, but it's all in fun, and I think they both understand that.

I understand and agree with everything LotaLota posted. I have already decided not to post reports this year. Even though I left out specific locations and any specific info I felt that I was cheating myself and my fellow anglers when I arrived to full parking lots. I know that me posting reports would only play a small role in the river being overcrowded, but I feel it does play a role. I am still more than happy to share general information such as fly/equipment recomendations and techniques, but do not see myself posting river locations or updated detailed reports, go check out your local flyshop for those.

sorry for the long post

[BRULEDRIFTER]

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Hey Drifter,

Are you sure Quickstrike was jumping on "baiters" and not "treblers"? Maybe I read that wrong.

I'll speak for myself on this one AND, just to be clear, I'm NOT saying anything that follows applies to you.

So...

I don't often see a pile of fly tying supplies laying on the bank. I do often pick up spent styro boxes laying on the bank. I don't often see a rats nest of fly line wrapped around debris on the river edge. I do often pick up a rats nest of mono complete with shot and hooks. I don't often see a guy flinging a fly in one hand with a beer in the other. I do sometimes see guys parked in holes with a cork rod in one hand and a beer in the other. I also pick up beer cans laying around those holes. If somebody crashes into the water I'm working or pinches me off the drift pattern I'm following, it is more frequently a "baiter" than not. These observations lead me to feel that SOME "baiters" either don't understand or don't care about the resource as much as they could.

More important though (even if it is a digression), is that I've learned to keep the details of the tribs to Superior quiet. Mostly just a report containing water level, clarity, or temp (which is enough to know what's up). I can fish a barbless fly all year long and offset that effort with a post or two detailing my successes on whatever river I fished that day (this thread in itself has around 1,200 hits). I haven't fished the Brule for long, maybe 14 years. I have lately seen some areas that I enjoyed for their relative solitude turn into high traffic areas. Maybe it's the PR brought by the handful of sites that see reports show up. Maybe not, but it is astounding to me that the same report will both note the fantastic day that was had and then lament how others choose to use the resource. The report is an open invitation with no covenants on style or purpose.

The Brule has a wicked learning curve. It sounds like you, Drifter, are familiar with it. maybe it's not the method, but the learning process that brings a steelheader to understand, value, and protect the Brule River.

Lota Lota...

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He did jump more on the treble hooks, but the bait issue was not left out of the post either!

You make some great points Lota! PEOPLE are slobs! I don't think it's because of how they choose to catch their fish, it's their ethics towards the outdoors. Unfourtunatly most of the slobs out there are that way because they don't GET IT! But you are generalizing a bit here too. Again clumping all "baiters" as the slobs out there, don't tell me there are no flyfishers out there that don't pack along a few brews to enjoy on a sunny bank while taking a break!!!. Most of these slobs out there are probably too poor to afford fly fishing tackle, and have not been educated to treat the outdoors with respect. But does this give the all-holy fly fishermen the right to look down on everyone who doesn't participate in their reighdeer games??? I guess I must be less of a person because I choose to fish w/ mono and some bait.

This is my beef here. But as I can see, everyone is shying away from getting into this. It's too bad, cause it would make for a good, educational discussion.

I just wish the elietist fly fishermen out there would get over it. As I said, we are all out there for the same reason, and how some one chooses to fish for them shouldn't matter as long as its ethical. I just hate to hear these types push to regulate people more just because they feel they are above everyone else. I guess that's just our our society has evolved as a whole these days, the elietist way is the only way. Let the rich have all and the poor have none!

To digress a little, I once was fishing Brown Hole and had an Eddie Bauer Flyfisher up on the bank spotting fish. He saw one and jumped in the hole not 10 ft in front of me and started fishing that fish! I have also seen my share of tippits with flies hanging off of trees and pulled multiple flies off of snags in the river. EVERYONE gets snagged up in the river, its part of the fun

"maybe it's not the method, but the learning process that brings a steelheader to understand, value, and protect the Brule River". EXACTAMUNDO!!!! This is my point in one sentence!

[DeathRoe]

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In the world of fish porn this would border on a snuff film.

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That's awesome, might have to be the new signature.

Yeah, it's all in good fun with me. I don't care how someone fishes as long it's ethical and respectful, with the river, fish, and other anglers. I'd even like fishing with other method guys, i might even learn something.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

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Bruledriter, I never was attacking you or anyone that uses bait. I was saying that I would rather have them lift the bait ban on the upper river and then ban treble hooks, because they damage the fish much worse. By lifting the ban on bait it would give people who did not flyfish a reasonable opportunity to fish the river without trebles. Please make sure you understand my posts before you put words in my mouth. As most people on here probally know by now, I only flyfish for steelhead. This is not to make myself feel more accomplished than other anglers or to be snoody. I enjoy it! That's it! I feel there is more of a challenge to it and there's an even larger learning curve than fishing the Brule already has to begin with. I have a lot of friends that fish with bait, and although we go back and forth jokingly, they know me better than to take any of it personally. I make some comments to DethRoe and Catfish hunter, but it's all in fun, and I think they both understand that.

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That's good to hear Quick. And I'll be the first to admit I misunderstood your post! (My biggest beef with these dang forums ) I guess I've been reading a lot of negativity on the bait issue and was looking to get the dissussion going to clear the air and see where the FM crew stood.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

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I understand and agree with everything LotaLota posted. I have already decided not to post reports this year. Even though I left out specific locations and any specific info I felt that I was cheating myself and my fellow anglers when I arrived to full parking lots. I know that me posting reports would only play a small role in the river being overcrowded, but I feel it does play a role. I am still more than happy to share general information such as fly/equipment recomendations and techniques, but do not see myself posting river locations or updated detailed reports, go check out your local flyshop for those.

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Great to hear!

As for posting on the rivers, ect. Sure everyone knows about them and their potential. But all it takes is a topic labeled Brule River, and suddenly everyone's interest is perked. I feel it doesn't even take a detailed report to increase pressure, just general chatter and a pic or two and some major seeds have been planted in the heads of thousands of potential anglers and that might be all it takes to bring 100 people up for a look-see.

[Catfishunter]

Bait, flies, roe sacks, beer, and fish. I love them all. Just treat the fish and the other anglers with as much respect as you can and your fine. I can hole hog like there's know tomarow with the pinn, please don't cut me off. There is alot of fisherpersons out there and we all love the river for the same things, we should try to make sure that what we have now is what we have in the future.

[Nate McVey]

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This is my beef here. But as I can see, everyone is shying away from getting into this. It's too bad, cause it would make for a good, educational discussion.

I just wish the elietist fly fishermen out there would get over it. As I said, we are all out there for the same reason, and how some one chooses to fish for them shouldn't matter as long as its ethical. I just hate to hear these types push to regulate people more just because they feel they are above everyone else. I guess that's just our our society has evolved as a whole these days, the elietist way is the only way. Let the rich have all and the poor have none!

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YIKES! I don't think any of us "elitist fly fisherman" are trying to regulate you "poor" folk, but are more concerned with this amazing fishery. There is a reason that there are regulations on treble hooks on the North Shore tribs, the treble hooks HURT fish! We are not all out there for the same reasons either.....some are out there for food, some are out there to hangout with friends and some are out there for the pure enjoyment of nature and the wonders of God's Earth.

Quick, Deathroe, Catfish and numerous others on this site post what they feel is right.......how are they more "elitist" than you? Can you not catch a trout on a worm using a barbless hook? Can you not throw a Mepps, Rapala or Cleo with a single hook and the barb pinched down?

This is an argument that goes back longer than any of us will ever know, but calling fly-fisherman "elitists" is just adding fuel to the fire.

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Again clumping all "baiters" as the slobs out there, don't tell me there are no flyfishers out there that don't pack along a few brews to enjoy on a sunny bank while taking a break!!!. Most of these slobs out there are probably too poor to afford fly fishing tackle, and have not been educated to treat the outdoors with respect.

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What does "too poor to afford fly fishing tackle" have to do with littering the outdoors? I pack in beers, smoke cigs and eat lunch every time I am on the river, but it all gets packed out with me. What does money have to do with this? I didn't have money growing up, but rich or poor, the outdoors is there for everyone!!! I'm sure I have picked up a "fly fishermans" trash on the way out just as sure as I am that I have picked up a "baiters" trash.

We (fisherman and women) are out there for our own reasons, but if the fish disappear, what do we have? Pack out what you take in, treat the fish like it is the last one on Earth, and for God's sake..........HAVE FUN!!!!!!!!!

[scifisher]

A couple of points...

1. Any noob with "search" skillz is going to discover all of the secrets they've ever dreamed on this board. I've been here since 2002 and I have to say that this forum was invaluable for me to understanding where and what to do.

2. With that being said, reading about it on the internet is a lot different then putting it to action. As other people have said, the Brule has a steep learning curve. It's taken me years to just start climbing up that slope. I don't think there is much to worry about when it comes to some noob learning mad skillz on the net and fishing the place out.

3. Perhaps one of the reasons the Brule doesn't have as many regulations is because it doesn't need them. Maybe it can handle the pressure of various fishing methods just fine. If a guy wants to throw hardware in places where its allowed, what business do any of you have telling that guy its wrong? Especially when the fisheries managers have obviously decided that the overall impact on the fishery is not affected greatly enough to warrent regulation?

4. Think about this comment, "In the world of fish porn this would border on a snuff film." With all of the quoting on this comment, I'm going to assume its a popular sentiment. Do you really think that we were that careless? Do you really think that me, my brother, and my father cause any more harm to those fish then we had to? To imply that we did and that we didn't care about it is a pretty mean spirited assumption.

I've already explained how we released those fish. These fish were taken in a legal manner and we did the best we could to release them. It would have been just as easy for us to keep them...and that would have been legal too.

So, what's wrong with a fisherman fishing in a legal manner and then doing their best to release live fish back into the fishery?

You guys, my dad is 56 years old and is pretty sick. This was his first brown trout ever and he was really proud that he caught and released that fish. I'm trying to spend as much time as I can with him right now and I think its really insensitive to disparage that or our intent.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

Shiner, relax! Re-read all of my posts up to this point, and you should get a better feel for where I'm coming from. Also re-read Lota's post, this is what my post was responding to. I never was clumping your friends into a group. I know not to attack specific people on this site. I'm trying to have a discussion, however, i'm sure its not to far away from lock down!

[DeathRoe]

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4. Think about this comment, "In the world of fish porn this would border on a snuff film." With all of the quoting on this comment, I'm going to assume its a popular sentiment. Do you really think that we were that careless? Do you really think that me, my brother, and my father cause any more harm to those fish then we had to? To imply that we did and that we didn't care about it is a pretty mean spirited assumption.

I've already explained how we released those fish. These fish were taken in a legal manner and we did the best we could to release them. It would have been just as easy for us to keep them...and that would have been legal too.

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Sci,

I'm so over those pics and that whole situation. People do what people do, and you've done more than enough to explain yourself, and i truly believe you guys did what you could with the fish. The looks on your faces doesn't say "meat hunter". In fact, you've even asked about tips for landing and pics. That's great, most guys wouldn't even care. The fact that you're seeking to improve says a lot. I'm not trying to be mean-spirited in the least. That certain comment is just hilarious. Fits my sense of humor just right, so please, don't think that I'm out to keep that in the open.

Go ahead and fish how you're gonna fish, the fish will bite if it's right. Frankly, lots of times, i don't mind jumping in behind a fly boy or a hardware guy. They'll just scare the steel with their presentation, then Mr. Pin swoops in on the vulnerable, frightened steel, comforting them with a drag free sac of their great great great great great great grandchildren.

[scifisher]

Thanks, DR. I like getting together with people on FM, so I don't want myself or people associated with me to come off wrong. And then, I'm feeling a little protective of my dad. It's a miracle that he's standing there with that fish. In May of this year, he had some large tumors removed and he was pretty out of it all summer. That particular night, my brother and I brought a chair down to the shore so he could make a couple of casts and then sit down and rest. When he hooked that fish, I was soooooo proud of my old man. My brother and I helped him land it and release it and then we helped him walk up to the truck. Every day he's getting stronger and its times like this that show us what the fight is for.

BTW - I've been doing some research on "pinning" and it looks pretty interesting. Kinda hard to find the stuff to do it though.

[DeathRoe]

Darn right it's hard to find. Definetely specialty.

If you ever see a guy with a pin and a nasty lookin hippie beard, stop and say hi... by that time i should have hooked a fish and you could land it for me.

That being said, i think Mr. Pin needs to quiet down, i see he's generating interest. Shhhhh.

[Catfishunter]

There not that hard to find just hard to pay for. Thanks death for the roe, I stoped at the bait box today a picked up a big bag of king eggs for back up. Boy is the river ripping and dark after the rain. Good luck guys and gals

[Nate McVey]

Brule, I have no beef with you or anyone else, just making some points for discussion......there was not meant to be any hostility in anything I said, I was just typing what came into my head. I'm sure I have seen you on the Brule and hopefully we all get to fish together sometime; baiters, flyfisherman, spinners and the pinners all fishing at once, wouldn't that be something

[DeathRoe]

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I'm sure I have seen you on the Brule and hopefully we all get to fish together sometime; baiters, flyfisherman, spinners and the pinners all fishing at once, wouldn't that be something

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Watch it with talk like that, if we all start getting along, Disney might swoop in and make us all the new children in the "It's a Small World" ride. And i'm pretty sure the steelies don't run up that cesspool of water that runs through the ride.

[biff]

I dont think trebles are banned on the north shore because they hurt fish but because of the nature of the streams it makes snagging that much more easy. I think the treble thing is exaggerated. If you look at any of the actual studies the negative effects are neglible. There were some trying to ban trebles on the brule a year or so ago and after looking at the studies it was poo-poo'd. Kind of the same with barbless hooks...most studies dont show any increase in survival and some show a decrease with barbless because the hooks sink in deeper. People just want a panacea and dont really think to much about the reality. I think people are to quick to try and ban other peoples methods. I'm a fly fisherman so lets ban bait...wont affect me so what do I care? You want to improve the fishery quit trying to ban legit fishing methods and release more fish. I think the handling of the fish once you catch them is far more important than how you caught them.

[Quickstrike]

are you seriously trying to say that trebles are no worse than a barbless single hook when it comes to fish mortality? I have never told people to or how not to fish. I have just shared my personal beliefs and feelings. I seriously would love to see these studies you speak of. I've never seen a single hook latch a fishes mouth shut in 3 places or tear a fishes gill apart, I have seen trebles do this. Trout and salmon are a lot different than fish such as walleyes, bass, and pike. There skin is much more sensitive to both wounds and excessive handling. Biff, you say that the most important thing is how you handle a fish, think of how much less handling it requires to remove a single hook than 3 trebles. Scifisher asked a question about how to get fish back into the river more quickly for a better release and the treble issue popped into my mind. I am not trying to ban anything, I just made an observation, and a recomendation, and FYI I have never kept a Lake Superior steelhead in my life.

[BRULEDRIFTER]

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hopefully we all get to fish together sometime; baiters, flyfisherman, spinners and the pinners all fishing at once, wouldn't that be something

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Could possibly mean the end of the world is near Or else the Vikes are winning a superbowl

[biff]

I am saying that the mortality is negligible. I havent seen studies comparing trebles vs single barbless...just trebles vs single and single barbless vs single barbed. Ive seen several over the years on the treble vs single...the brule one I spoke of is from what I believe was a dnr guy who did a presentation at the brsc meeting and there was a brief synopsis in the newsletter. The single barbless vs barbed was in an issue of in-fisherman. It's easy to make broad conclusions from anecdotal personal experience but taken as a whole the effects are minimal. Anyone who thinks that the brule would see a jump in fish numbers by even going all out and making it single barbless artificial only is misinformed. I think the only thing that would make any noticable impact at all is going total catch and release...which I would be all for but would never happen...Ive never kept a wild steelhead either. As far as digging up the info and putting it on here...youll just have to do the work. I doubt youll see it in any fly fishing magazines though

[RodNGun]

It is so much more rewarding to hand land a chromer on a fly and know that you fought the fish correctly. Then drag a fish to your net with a treble hook.