Hendrick Penalties

[harvey lee]

fenders may not be cut or altered.

Thats the way I would see it. No altering of fenders. Maybe I'm missing something in the rules.

[jbell1981]

To me it seems pretty clear, no gray area. Maybe that page was torn out of Hendrick's rule book

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a copy of nascar's rule book, or is it given only to teams and officials?

[lawdog]

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Does anyone know if it is possible to get a copy of nascar's rule book, or is it given only to teams and officials?

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They just make something up every time they want to quote from it!!

[harvey lee]

I dont agree with that at all. It states that you cannot do things to the fenders " Fenders may not be cut or altered", so why should they have not recieve a penalty as thats what they did, worked on the fenders. I may be missing it but, I cannot see where.

Please explain to me where or what I dont understand.

[Coach Dog]

The main reasons NASCAR's rating are down: Hendrick is dominating, Junior is not winning, the Chase format creates a lull in the middle of the season, and no rivalry. We need some good, old-fashioned rivalry on and off the track and none of this, give and take stuff. NASCAR has the drivers by the you-know-whats that nobody wants to start anything.

Larry McReynolds has a good article as well on foxsports.com about the penalties. I agree with some sort of penalty and being consistent but the fact that they were not allowed to qualify still does not make much sense.

[lawdog]

Fenders can't be cut or altered. That would be a nice rule if they were using stock fenders from a street car like I used on my dirt car, but given that every part of bodies of these cars is hand made by their fabricators in their shops it doesn't even make sense. How can it "not be altered" when they start with a flat piece of sheet metal? Doesn't not altered mean changed to not fit the templates? That's the only logical thing it can mean when you are talking about custom made parts: not altered from what fits in the measured templates, which these fenders did. Not cut? That's how they had to FIX THEM was cut them and move them in and weld em back together, so does that make them illegal??? Its just made up as they go like I said...

[Coach Dog]

I don't quite get that either. Isn't this sport "STOCK" car racing?

[snowman678]

I bet you'd have a much easier time "understanding" it if it wasn't your favorite drivers

[Coach Dog]

You may be right...

[snowman678]

Here's an interesting piece I found on another site; I think this explains it pretty well.

Here's the rule, verbatim, from the rule book regarding the 24/48 infractions. This is the rule cited by NASCAR in the release:

Rule 20-2.1

The car body must be acceptable to NASCAR officials and meet the following minimum requirements:

…E. Streamlining of the contours of the car, beyond that approved by the Series Director, will not be permitted. …If, in the judgment of NASCAR Officials, any part or component of the car not previously approved by NASCAR that has been installed or modified to enhance aerodynamic performance, will not be permitted. All cars must remain standard in appearance.

…H. Fenders may not be cut or altered except for wheel or tire clearance, which must be approved by the Series Director.

I wish somebody would find me some "gray" area in that. The team said it did what it did to get more front downforce. That falls under "enhance aerodynamic performance." Clearly it was not preapproved. There's the rule, and they violated it.

4. This business about the templates and the car fitting them. It doesn't matter with the COT, folks. The templates are PART of the inspection process. The templates hit prescribed points on the car. From the end of one template to the other, the line must be straight. No deviation. The area between the templates is covered by scans each team has showing dimensions for all pieces of the car. You get small tolerances because everything can't be 100 percent exact on a handmade car, but the tolerances are like an eighth of an inch. These cars were outside the approved shape by more than one inch total. That's EIGHT times beyond the tolerance. Not even close. Fifty cars got to Infineon within the tolerances. Two didn't.

Lawdog, would that last part not equate to something like a drunk driver that at point A and point B is within his lane, but sometime in between crossed over the center line and therefore could be pulled over. Would his arguement be accepted that at the 2 points he "fit the template"; therefore what he did in between is irrelevent? I think not.

[jbell1981]

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Fenders can't be cut or altered. That would be a nice rule if they were using stock fenders from a street car like I used on my dirt car, but given that every part of bodies of these cars is hand made by their fabricators in their shops it doesn't even make sense. How can it "not be altered" when they start with a flat piece of sheet metal? Doesn't not altered mean changed to not fit the templates? That's the only logical thing it can mean when you are talking about custom made parts: not altered from what fits in the measured templates, which these fenders did. Not cut? That's how they had to FIX THEM was cut them and move them in and weld em back together, so does that make them illegal??? Its just made up as they go like I said...

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Doesn't nascar have pretty specific standards for pretty much everything? I would think that there would be some sort of fender spec (along with most other parts)put out by nascar that the teams must be with-in a certian tolerance of?

Am I way off base here?

[snowman678]

jbell981, see my post above regarding the tolerances, I think it explains it pretty clear.

[jbell1981]

I did, but we posted at the same time so I couldn't read it before I posted.

[OUTDOORNUT]

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The main reasons NASCAR's rating are down: Hendrick is dominating, Junior is not winning, the Chase format creates a lull in the middle of the season, and no rivalry. We need some good, old-fashioned rivalry on and off the track and none of this, give and take stuff.

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I'd love to see Jimmy Spencer punch both the Busch boys again! That would help ratings!

[harvey lee]

After reading snowmans post, it still seems pretty clear that they were not within the limits of the rulebook.

[LMITOUT]

I'd pay more to see him punch the drivers of the 24 and 48! That'd put NASCAR ratings through the roof!

[Sifty]

I would agree Tom. It state's it pretty clear.

Sifty

[Coach Dog]

Now you're talking! We need some sort of drama.

[lawdog]

Quote:

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Here's an interesting piece I found on another site; I think this explains it pretty well.

Here's the rule, verbatim, from the rule book regarding the 24/48 infractions. This is the rule cited by NASCAR in the release:

Rule 20-2.1

The car body must be acceptable to NASCAR officials and meet the following minimum requirements:

…E. Streamlining of the contours of the car, beyond that approved by the Series Director, will not be permitted. …If, in the judgment of NASCAR Officials, any part or component of the car not previously approved by NASCAR that has been installed or modified to enhance aerodynamic performance, will not be permitted. All cars must remain standard in appearance.

…H. Fenders may not be cut or altered except for wheel or tire clearance, which must be approved by the Series Director.

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Ya, that's pretty clear, glad someone finally found a rule that says something, although you gotta love that "in the opinion of NASCAR" talk they put in there so they can keep making up stuff as they go. So I assume this must be a brand new rule this year and it must apply specifically to the C.O.T. because clearly if this, as I suspect it has, has been the same rule for years, then we've just decided to strictly enforce it now after ignoring it for years, and in fact for half the races this year too because I gaurantee you every old car race has as many shaped fenders as ever in it...

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4. This business about the templates and the car fitting them. It doesn't matter with the COT, folks. The templates are PART of the inspection process. The templates hit prescribed points on the car. From the end of one template to the other, the line must be straight. No deviation. The area between the templates is covered by scans each team has showing dimensions for all pieces of the car. You get small tolerances because everything can't be 100 percent exact on a handmade car, but the tolerances are like an eighth of an inch. These cars were outside the approved shape by more than one inch total. That's EIGHT times beyond the tolerance. Not even close. Fifty cars got to Infineon within the tolerances. Two didn't.

Lawdog, would that last part not equate to something like a drunk driver that at point A and point B is within his lane, but sometime in between crossed over the center line and therefore could be pulled over. Would his arguement be accepted that at the 2 points he "fit the template"; therefore what he did in between is irrelevent? I think not.

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Actually that argument makes no sense at all so no. Now on the other hand, if the drunk passed all the actual test that we have, field sobriety test, PBT tests and the final Blood, Breath or Urine Test, and the officer still said, ya but in my opinion you must be drunk, now that would be the same as this...

[JohnMickish]

Here is part of an interview with Tony Eury from the 8 team on Jayskis.c. Even he says the Hendrick boys weren't cheating. It's a good article and worthy of reading.

For the record, Eury understands and accepts his penalty, despite lingering frustration that, in his opinion, the illegal brackets placed on the No. 8 at Darlington were actually a disadvantage. The penalties levied against Knaus and Letarte, though?

"My deal? Yeah, I'll take my six weeks and [$100,000] and go on," Eury said. "That's what I should've got. But what [NASCAR] did to the 24 and 48, I think [NASCAR] blindsided everybody and put everybody on pins and needles."

[harvey lee]

There will always be some that believe both ways but, it doesnt matter what we believe, its what NASCAR has determined is not legal with these COT car. May be interpretation.

The other thought is, why would Eury state that the Hendrick boys are cheaters when he is going to maybe work for them ? Might not be a wise thing to state.

I also believe that whether the part helped or not on Jr's car, the part was still not within the rules.

I dont understand why Hendrick might be on pins and needles if all of thier cars are within the rules. I know there are some gray areas but, you can check with NASCAR and make sure the cars are fine before the race.

[LMITOUT]

Eury never said the Hendrick boys were cheaters....quite the opposite in fact, if you re-read the article or quote.

His point is that there is a template and it needs to fit those points where the template and car meet from what NASCAR has said in the past when they started developing/building these cars. Hendrick worked those "gray areas" inbetween the templates and he doesn't believe that they should have been penalized because the templates fit those points where NASCAR said they have to. Now they are saying you can't alter anything and everyone (not just Hendrick) is nervous (pins and needles) because they don't know what they can work with.

Basically NASCAR wanted IROC type bodies and now they've got them. If the teams can't work within the rules then why doesn't NASCAR have a body shop that "mass produces" these bodies and sells them to the teams? I mean really that's what it's boiling down to here. What can the teams do now? NASCAR is a joke. Although I like to put the Hendrick team in the meat grinder time to time, I don't agree with the penalties they received just because it's setting a bad tone for what is coming in the future.

[harvey lee]

Eury never said the Hendrick boys were cheaters....quite the opposite in fact, if you re-read the article or quote.

I never stated that he said they were cheaters, I said why would he say that if he were to go to work for them? Maybe you might read what I said. Trying to say that if he were to go to work for Hendrick, it surely would not be wise to say they were cheaters.

As far as the penalty, i still contend that if you are working in a gray area, you should ask or get the ok. many times I have talked to racers that were concerned about something they wanted to do to thier car and they asked the tech offivcal. I know this is small time racing but if you are concerned that you might be in the gray area and wrong, best check, only takes a few minutes to find out exactly you can do.

With the COT cars NASCAR may be leaning towards IROC type cars. I really dont understand why it is so diffucult to ask a tech person if what you are planning on doing is ok. They wont ask because they choose to sneak it by. Why does Mr Knaus seem to recieve so many more penalties than the majority of the crew chiefs? I cannot believe that everyone else really understands the rules but there is too much gray area for Knaus, thats a stretch.

If the teams cannot work within the rules, maybe they should try to and not try to change everything. Most will agree that all teams will push the rules to the limit and sometimes they get caught. If one plays with fire long enough, one will get burnt.

[LMITOUT]

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The other thought is, why would Eury state that the Hendrick boys are cheaters when he is going to maybe work for them ? Might not be a wise thing to state.

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The way your post is worded didn't make it clear what you were trying to say. I read it a few times and it still came across the same.

[Uncle Bill]

Lmitout,

I think what Harvey means is Eury is using a little reverse psychology.