no new CRP

[Cooter]

Obviously I'm not the CRP pro but I think to answer your question lets say the taxes are the same, however you have at least those two options to make a profit/acre. One would be rent or plant crops, the other would be to collect/acre from the CRP program.

I think what's significant is the CRP program sounds like its gonna provide the lowest amount of income when you compare it to either leasing or growing your own cash crop whether it be corn, beans, etc.

If you have a hobby farm or a retirement type situation or you are financially well off CRP is probably attractive. If you're trying to make a living like most its tough to look at much other than the bottom line. BTW - does an average net income of $300/acre of corn sound legit with current and predicted prices? If so that's a lot more $ than say $80ish/acre for CRP enrollent.

Neat topic, lots of different angles and other issues impacted. One already mentioned, cattle prices, hit my uncle hard last year when he sold his feeders.

[gorrilla]

Without getting in a pizzing match and at the risk of more snide tough guy remarks aimed my way,

can't we all agree that the loss of anymore CRP is a terrible thing??????

That's my main point and some people would rather debate other things ethanol, tax breaks, etc.

How would everyone suggest we combat the forces trying to keep acres from starting or staying in CRP?????

P.S. you can't tell me Boilerguy, even though you apparently are tied into the ethanol business that people dealing with ethanol plant think more acres in CRP and out of production is a good thing. Thats the mentality I think we are up against.

[BobT]

My property taxes are not based on whether I am farming my land or not, at least not to my knowledge. I have never filed any statements or avidavit to specify whether I am farming my land or it is setting idle. I do to the extent that I take advantage of the farm programs and must report my land use as part of my contract but I have only been involved since the last bill was passed. There was no change in my tax base when I finally decided to participate. Prior to that, my land was just land.

If I could enroll my land in CRP I would be compensated for it but it doesn't come without some sacrifice on my end. I would be in a contract that also requires me to manage noxious weeds, erosion, etc. It's not just free money as some might think.

It's a matter of choice. Do I put in the work and take the risk of farming it or do I let it set idle for 10 years for a moderate compensation? Yes, I may have a potential to produce well and make more money but then I have to put in the time, put up the cost, and take the risk for that potential. On the flip side, I also have the potential to lose big.

And finally, if I enroll it in CRP (provided my land qualifies) I can rest assured of the satisfaction of providing nesting and feeding cover for wildlife. This too has its merit.

Bob

[Pistol Pete]

BobT, well said, and correct. My farm land is based on value not on what I grow on it or do with it. The same as building a small house VS a large house that costs more. The larger house increases the value of the propety therefor it is taxed more.

As far as switch grass instead of corn, I'm not so sure. I have switch grass in my CRP and it sure doesn't look like much. It is a very thin stemmed plant and I'm not sure how many times you can cut it and expect regrowth. Expensive seed also if memory serves me right.

[BLACKJACK]

You guys have it correct, your property taxes are based on the assessed value of your property, it doesn't matter whats grown on the land. If I build a McMansion and a big machine shed, my assessed value goes up and my property taxes go up.

[BLACKJACK]

In order to keep the CRP it starts with the lobbying of our legislatures, stating with Coleman and Klobuchar and Pawlenty, and also your local US and state representatives, and Colin Peterson, who heads the US House Ag committee. They're the ones that will craft and vote on the next CRP bill. When Pheasants Forever sends you a letter saying they need money for CRP lobbying, send them a check. Get your local PF and DU chapters to allocate money to the National PF and DU for lobbying for a new CRP bill. That money a local chapter donates to the National will save more acres of CRP than any local projects!!

When you write your letter, emphasize the water and wind benefits of CRP, if its in grassland, it doesn't wash away. That benefits everyone, not just the landowners.

Also realize that big agribusiness - and I consider the ethanol plants one of them - are lobbying for more acres under the plow. They want cheap corn and they don't sell seed and fertilizer and chemicals if the land isn't being farmed. We need to combat that big business lobbying.

[purpel sock hat 1]

see post carlos avery in hunting form

[gorrilla]

BLACKJACK, its funny you bring Colin Peterson's name up on this topic. He's one of our problems. I have a friend in a Soil and Water Conservation office(I believe he's either a state or federal employee though) and he does work enrolling land owners up for ag programs such as CRP, CREP, and numerous other environmentally benificial programs. He also helps landowners establish their properties to create the most erosion resistant, wildlife friendly chunks of prairie they can be (or Riparian Strips, etc.).

Anyway, one day he was told to give Mr. Peterson a tour of one of the properties they were most proud of. After thoroughly explaining all the native plants that were established and the expected benefits to water, soil, and wildlife, they were surveying the property from a beautiful hillside.

At this point, my buddy proudly asked him something along the lines of, "What do you think?"

Mr. Peterson replied, " I think its a shame."

Surprised I'm sure, my buddy asks, "Why?"

Mr. Peterson says, "I just think its terrible to think that all these productive acres will never be farmed again and just sit here idle."

My buddy said he was floored. That this guy with all the insights on how these programs do such good for the wildlife, water, air, and even the farmer would be so ignorant to say that about such a polished piece of property that had that much work and money put into it.

He said after getting to know the congressman a little bit it seemed like he wasn't in favor of highly productive land being taken out of production and was also against perpetual easments. What he didn't know is that all the "productive" acres were part of a wetland restoration project. If we returned some of the "productive acres" back into the wetlands that never should have been removed in the first place, we'd all be better off. I think perpetual easments are great too, they allow government to only have to pay towards the land one time and keep it permanently in conservation easement. It allows the land owner to leave a legacy of conservation for future generations. The owner is allowed to be payed a fair amount for his land and still own it too. To me its win/win.

That I believe is what we are up against in the agribusiness world. If they can't make money selling seed, fertilizer, crop insurance, equipment, fuel, storage, transport, processing. The middlemen lose out. Not the farmers. LESS LAND IN PRODUCTION = BETTER PRICES ON CROPS THAT ARE LEFT.

With all the power those businesses have politically with all their lobbyists, its like an uphill battle at Mount Everest with a fat guy and a three-legged donkey!!!

[PrairieHunter]

Some interesting side effects:

1) the lease value and possibly the land value (if inflated by hunters) will possibly increase for land with existing long-term CRP contracts.

2) lease groups and guide/outiftters will be scrambling to secure CRP acres remaining as they loose their own.

3) number of pheasant hunters will fall proportional to drop in pheasant population.

Access, leasing, etc... will become a problem that moves like a bowling ball through a snake.

Eventually

pheasant populations will decline hard

the commercial outfitters will go out of business for lack or resources

hunters will sell their little 80s and 160s because it is now to expensive ...

[luckey]

Like some one mentioned, not all CRP is the same. It is not all a cash cow where the land owner sits back and reaps wads of cash for doing nothing. My brother in law and I each own land adjacent to a large swamp. Four years ago we put a combined 7 acres in CRP as a "riparian buffer” Let me tell you that if your only reason for doing this is to get the $43.00 an acre payment, I would advise you not to sign up. Yes, there were cost sharing for prep and planting but unless you do it for the love of the land or what you want your kids to see, you will be disappointed. Here is a rough breakdown of costs and cost share so far.

I will not be exact but in the ball park.

Land prep - Hard to put an exact price but I'm sure the $150 per acre signup bonus covered the prep.

Cost of 4500 trees and planting $2250. Cost share 50%

Cost of replanting 1500 trees that did not grow the first year - $400. Cost share 50%

Cost of trees planted the past two years - $400 cost share 0

Hours invested in mowing, replanting and maintaining - countless.

Disappointments- We have to live with trees lost to animals, but it really hurt to see where ATV's blasted through the area flattening young trees.

This is a 15 year commitment.

[kobear]

The switchgrass for ethanol is a possibility. The varieties they would use grow to nine feet plus and would most likely be grown is the southeast US as the growing season is longer. They aren't the best wildlife cover but better than row crops. You shouldn't have to reseed often but would have to fertilize to maintain productivity. Can produce 14 tons an acre. The process to convert this to ethanol is lagging because we've been making corn liquor for what 200 years, when's the last time you had switchgrass whiskey? They need to find the best yeast to digest the starches in switchgrass. Another more promising method is cracking "heating the material in a oxygen deficent enviroment" the switchgrass and then recombining the products into the desired fuel, petroleum plants do it all day long turning heavy tars into gasoline. Also alternatively fueled ethanol plants, say biomass like wood chips or corn stover, produce a fuel with half the carbon foot print. Think about it you can drill for natural gas and then burn it to fuel the ethanol plant releasing fossil(ancient) carbon that was sequestered underground, or utilize logging slash and not release fossil carbon. Did you know that if we participated in the carbon credits trading like Europe farmers could get an extra $60 an acre just for leaving the field in grass (carbon sequestration credits), right now you can only get $6 for permanent grass and $3 an acre if you notill, contact the Farm Burea or DU they can package your credits and sell them on the Chicago Board of Trade.

I emailed Colin Peterson and he ACTUALLY CALLED ME BACK, WOW I was impressed with what he had to say. He really knew alot about the process and what was holding it up, how to proceed, etc. Anyway I think he's the right man for the job. Gorilla, I have the same job as your friend, helping farmers through the CRP enrollment process. Site visit, conservation plan, seeding and/or tree plan, etc. So I do know a little about this. We have good luck selling the program as an efficency aid, we can square up the field so it's an even number of passes with no overlap. It's hard to make money when your doubling up on tillage, seed, herbicide, fertilizer, etc. as expenses are high enough anyway.

[gorrilla]

Colin definately knows farming and government, my point is I questioned if he knows the full conservation benefit of CRP type benefits, or just sees the politics and money involved from an agri-business point of view.

[BLACKJACK]

luckey, if you're having problems with tree survival, seriously consider some tree fabric, it combats weeds and holds in moisture, the good stuff was developed for tree planting in the Dakotas. Do a google search on 'shaw fabric', thats where I've gotten mine in the past. Its not cheap and its labor intensive but you'll get 95% survival once the fabric is down. They also sell 4x4 squares, consider putting those down around your evergreens, thats what I did.

[luckey]

blackjack,

Thanks for the information. We considered that but had to balance it out with cost, extra work and most of all exposing the trees to the deer. Currently it's a trade off. The trees are having a hard time making it through the grass but by the same token, the deer are having a hard time finding them. The first year we mowed a path along each side of the tree rows. The deer loved it! It gave them a path to follow while nibbling the trees. I retrospect we should have mowed about three feet away from the rows. The deer would then follow the mowed area and the trees would be protected by the grass.

We have a long way to go in establishing a "woods" but will keep plugging away. We planted a mix of Red Oak, White Oak, Burr Oak, Dogwood, spruce, Red Pine, and a smattering of other trees.

[BLACKJACK]

luckey, your deer story reminds me of when I planted my first shelterbelt, I was watching the deer going thru and nibbling on the trees and I was cussing when my wife said to me "isn't that why you planted the trees, to attract wildlife?" That shut me up!!

Tubex tree tubes are an option for heavy deer areas. They are spendy though but you might be able to get some cost share. They work really well on crabapples, walnuts, and ashes, and ok on oaks.

Mowing grass between the tree rows is mostly for the people and looks, you still have the grass competing with the trees for mositure. Broadleafs are another story, mowing knocks them right down.

I really encourage you to try some of the fabric. The way I look at it, once I get the fabric around a tree, I'm done with it, no more weed work or replanting. Get 20 squares, do every other tree in a row, then check back in three years to see which ones have better survival. You'll be getting more fabric!!!

Also, keep up your replanting regiment, thats how you get a nice looking tree planting. Every year I buy 25-50 conifers or deciduous and go thru and do some replanting.

Good luck!

[kentuck_ike]

We had a hard time with deer as well. We finally bought a case of cheap deordant soap, and some zip ties. We drilled holes in the soap and zipped them to every other tree. problem solved, we are on the 3rd year with the same soap.

Ike.

[PrairieHunter]

I suspect Cargill, ADM, John Deere, etc... are all major contibutors to Colin's war chest. Add in local implemment dealers, anhydrous and fertilizer dealers ...

Much more $$$ than PF can contribute. Letters are nice and sometimes effective - but they do not create the money flow, investments,and jobs that corn does.