What constitutes a "private" lake?

[Hammer Handle]

Message to TNT4ME:

Actually, I am the land owner. I have 80 acres of fields and woodland that has a county gravel road going through the middle of it. I pay taxes on the 80 acres, but it is 80 acres counting the road. I asked this last year why I was taxed on the road land, and that is the answer I got. I will have to check again, for that is news to me.

I also have a snowmobile trail going through my land and have had problems with 4-wheelers in the summer (not allowed) and people not staying on the path. I planted small trees on my land and the snowmobilers killed many of them by driving over them and clipping them off. Many drive in the ditch to get to the trail also.

I was told that it the snowmobilers continue to drive in the ditch and on my land, I have a case to have the option to close my part of the trail. And, I decided that I will. It has been abused for far too long.

FYI -- the road is public, but NOT the ditch in this case. The county has 100% easement to plow, add gravel, and cut trees along the road and whatever.

[BobT]

To my understanding the road right-of-way is included in the easement, not beyond. If there is a need to expand, a new easement is requested. This past summer our township decided to do some road work to cut down a couple hills, one of which bordered my property. The requested an easement from me in order to properly slope the road ditch beyond their right-of-way.

It is also my understanding that an easement is not permanent. In other words, if the road, railroad, etc. is abandoned, the property owner gets his/her land returned when the easement is vacated.

Bob

[Hammer Handle]

From what I was told, if a county road and you own the land on both sides, the county has easement for the road and the ditch. The public only has easement for the road (not the ditch for snowmobiles).

That is what I was just told again when I called the county today. I am going to try to get this in writing.

[so haaad]

Hammer handle-

The county should already have it in writing.

A "road" and a "road right-of-way" are often confused, but are two different things. If a county/city/state owns a right-of-way, then you can usually include the ditches. A right-of-way will extend beyond the actual paved or gravel surface of the "road" in most cases. Property owners may own a portion of a road right-of-way, like Hammer Handle is stating. But the City/public should have access rights for the entire right-of-way. The access rights/legal agreement will sometimes discuss the kind of activities that are allowed in the access area, i.e., walking, vehicles, atv, etc. I know that there are numerous roads and right of ways owned and maintained by the City of Forest Lake that are similar to this.

[Hammer Handle]

But, that is what I don't understand. The county is telling me that they have a right of way to the land and the "ditch", but the public ONLY has a right of way to the road itself, not the ditch.

This weekend, I plan on posting it as such. It will [PoorWordUsage] some people off, but I am tired of people driving on and damaging my land that I have designated for wildlife. Especially 4-wheelers. They can really tear up the land. When I see someone and tell them to get off my land, they complain "Where am I supposed to drive then?" How is that my fault?? Don't buy a 4-wheeler unless you have someplace to drive.

[Gus]

Hammerhandle, Take this for what it's worth and I'm not trying to be a jerk.

IMHO you are better off trying to work with the local snowmobilers and ATVers rather than posting and closing land. Why? Because you will still find the same people riding in your ditch and tresspassing and tearing stuff up regardless. Yes you can turn them in etc etc but in the end it is still going to keep happening and you are the one who is going to be fustrated. Again, just my opinion, but I think working with them overall will get more accomplished to the postive side than headbutting.

[biggieroth]

I agree with HammerHandle. Everyone needs to respect property rights. Property rights are one of the absolute core values that our country was founded upon.

If you want to post this ground, that is your right to do so.

In Missouri all it would take is a phone call and you would have a CO camped out and writing trespassing tickets. Press charges a few times and the word will get around.

You should not have to concede your property rights to people damaging your property.

[kunk]

The state owns only the water. If the lake level drops, the property owner has just gained some real estate. It's called riparian rights. The property lines then extend toward the deepest part of the lake. This way a lakeshore owner will own lakeshore until the lake completely dries up. The state does have jurisdiction up to the ordinary high water level as far as development and lakeshore alteration, but does not own it. Some of this can be found on the DNR HSOforum. Click on water, then lakes, then frequently asked questions. See "Who owns the lake bed?" and "What is ordinary high water level". The rest I found out by consulting a real estate attorney. I had neighbor that thought he could scatter all his junk along the shore.

[upnorth]

Read this http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/waters/watermgmt_section/pwpermits/waterlaws.html

You can also look up public access for lakes by county here http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/water_access/counties.html

[Hammer Handle]

Gus, I have tried to work with the snowmobilers for years. I can't talk to them all either. That is why it is so frustrating. Last year, a group made an "racing" course on one of my fields and really tore it up. Being I don't live on or near the land, no one was warned or caught.

Most riders are kind and respectful. It is too bad that a few bad drivers ruin it for all.

I planted 75 trees by hand last year. This "race track" went right over them. This spring, only 5 trees remained....

[BobT]

Gus,

I can understand where you're coming from but on a contrary note. Since a significant number of highway drivers continuously violate the law by speeding, passing on the shoulder, failing to use turn signals, failing to turn on headlights, etc., should the state, county, city, whatever then change the law to accommodate?

Now I'll be even more facetious. How far should this go? Since violent crime is so high, should we also change the laws to accommodate them? This is precisely what those that wish to legalize certain drugs propose, is it not?

My point is that I don't think it should be necessary for people to sacrifice their rights just to keep the peace with those that would disrespectfully and selfishly violate them.

Bob

[Gus]

Guys, I'm certainly not trying to take the side of these lawbreakers. It's just my opinion that cooperation works better than headbutting and that more effective solutions can come from that cooperation. An idea in my head (keep in mind I have no idea about the layout of your land or how the trail runs) would be to allow them access for the trail but under the condition that they install and remove a snowfence each year to keep people from just running off the trail. This is just an example and I have no idea if it is even feasable but I think you understand where my ideas are coming from.

ps, maybe we should take this part of the discussion over to the thread in the ATV area instead of hyjacking this thread. I'm guilty... my apologies to the original thread creator.

[Scott M]

So I read the water law basics, and now I have another question. What happens if I own land on a private lake and I want to duck hunt in this case, on another part of the lake (with wet feet mind you)? Can I hunt on the other part of the lake or am I trespassing? I might be calling the CO on this one I'm afraid.....

[smg04]

i beleive if you have leagal access to a body of water your alright as long as you dont step foot on somebody elses land, but a call to the local co is prob the best thing, and will prob shorten any arguments with other land owners in the future if a problem comes up

[so haaad]

Yep, if you have access to the lake, then you can access the whole thing assuming it's a DNR recognized waterway. If you are part of an association or private development, you should also check to see that there are no additional regulations regarding the use of the lake, like hunting. And of course you will still have to follow state hunting regulations.