Running E85

[picksbigwagon]

Sitting around here watching basketball and a comercial come on about Chevy's using E85.....could I use E85 in my boat??? what would the results be if I used it? I was on the E85 HSOforum and they said it was 105 octane.......I don't remember this being talked about here before, oops, game is back on, gotta go

[Jeremy airjer W]

NO! E85 should not be run in anything that is not specifically designed to opperate on it!!

[picksbigwagon]

Okay airjer, why?

[Macgyver55]

E85 has a considerably higher octane rating than gasoline — about 110 — a big enough difference that it does not burn as efficiently in a non flex fuel motor. Running a non-FFV with too high of a percentage of ethanol will also cause a lean air fuel mixture. A lean mixture, if allowed to persist over considerable periods of time, will cause overheating of pistons and will eventually cause engine damage. It will also cause premature catalytic converter failure on cars and trucks that have them. Also alcohols are corrosive if any moisture is present in it, therefore, any part that comes in contact with e85 fuel needs to be upgraded to be tolerant to alcohol. This would include a stainless steel fuel tank & Teflon-lined fuel hoses.

Another factor not in favor is that prolonged exposure to high concentrations of ethanol may corrode metal and rubber parts in older engines that were designed for gasoline.

These are just a few of many reasons not to run it in a motor not designed for it.

[dan2957]

I wonder what will happen to our outboards when the government makes us convert over to the 20% ethenal blended fuel a few years from now. Will we all be forced to buy new motors for our boats. I sure hope not.

[picksbigwagon]

Thanks for the answer Mac, I didn't know that would need to be changed.....

As far as new motors go, I am looking forward to a hydrogen powered boat, something with a sepreator on it so all I need to do break down the water molecules, wait, wouldn't that drain the lake???

[JohnMickish]

The major reason why you can't run E 85 in vehicles that aren't designed for it goes like this.

One gallon of alcohol has about half the amount of BTU's (heat energy) than a gallon of gasoline.

Put another way, gasoline has twice the amount of BTU's (heat energy) than alcohol does.

Stay with me here. An engine is basically a hot air pump and it takes "X" amount of heat (BTU's) (expanding air due to the fuel/air mixture igniting) and the ratio for gasoline is between 12-1 and 17-1 air to fuel and alcohol is around 6-1 air/fuel ratio. The thinking there is that alcohol is cheaper to produce than gasoline so it basically comes out as a wash in the $$ to gallon ratio. The differece is that the money dosen't head back to the sand box, and maybe some of it will go to farmer Brown down the road.

What that means is it takes about twice the amount of alcohol to make the same power as gas, thus you burn twice as much. If you where to burn it in a non E-85 vehicle that does not have the ability to read thru the O2 sensor and compensate for it (the extra lean due to the E-85 of whatever ratio you have in the tank) quickly you will run into a seriously lean condition in the engine. By seriously lean I mean melted pistons and other spendy things. If that 20% deal goes thru I would think the manufacturers would have to re-jet the carb stuff and reprogram the computer stuff, and not just boats but ATV, bikes and all the other toys we have.

[Jeremy airjer W]

All that may occur if it even starts!!

Stainless fuel tank? Teflon hoses? I haven't seen a stainless tank in a vehicle yet.

[Macgyver55]

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Stainless fuel tank? Teflon hoses? I haven't seen a stainless tank in a vehicle yet.

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In cars and pickups.....no, I was speaking mostly to a marine application. In a moisture laden environment like a boat, it would be important to use a non corrosive tank because of the acidic nature of alcohol when moisture is present in it.

Otherwise there is no appreciable difference in the corrosive properties between E10 and E85 provided there is no water present.

I've read of testing where up to 50% ethanol was run in non-FFVs that did not even result in a check engine light, but I guess I'm not ready to fill my tank with it just to see if it will run.

[bode]

i was told not to even run 10% ethenol in my boat. something about drying out rubber gaskets and hoses. also i recently read were you get 20-25 percent less mpg with e 85. plus the fact that e 85 is only 15 percent gas but has gone up at the same rate as gas doesn't make any sence. around here it is only 15-25 cent a gallon cheaper. i'm not worring about changing any time soon...

[JohnMickish]

If you are really interested in the differences between how alcohol and gasoline run, talk to any late model, modified or drag car driver/crew that runs alcohol. Yes, it's very corosive and since it lacks the heat making ability that gas does it tends to run like dump when cold. Many alcohol race motors are started on gas sprayed into the intake manifold to get them to start. If you have an E-85 vehicle you will never know the difference fuels by how it runs since they are set up to handle it.

Like they say on TV. Don't try this at home if you don't have the right stuff.

[carlcmc]

Forgive me a bit of small skeptisicm if will for a minute, Macgyver55. But as I recall from organic chemistry, the prescence of alcohol in gas is actually a protective effect against water. Alcohol allows water contamination to be disapated so as not to build up in the tank. Not arguing against not running e85, i'm just not sure that it has anything to do with water and alcohol?

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Stainless fuel tank? Teflon hoses? I haven't seen a stainless tank in a vehicle yet.

In cars and pickups.....no, I was speaking mostly to a marine application. In a moisture laden environment like a boat, it would be important to use a non corrosive tank because of the acidic nature of alcohol when moisture is present in it.

Otherwise there is no appreciable difference in the corrosive properties between E10 and E85 provided there is no water present.

I've read of testing where up to 50% ethanol was run in non-FFVs that did not even result in a check engine light, but I guess I'm not ready to fill my tank with it just to see if it will run.

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[Macgyver55]

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Forgive me a bit of small skeptisicm if will for a minute, Macgyver55. But as I recall from organic chemistry, the prescence of alcohol in gas is actually a protective effect against water. Alcohol allows water contamination to be disapated so as not to build up in the tank.

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Carlcmc....That part is true, and maybe I interpreted what I read incorrectly. You can read it below and judge for yourself.

I don't claim to be a chemist but here is what it said in one of the articles I've read on the subject.

"The hydroxyl group on the ethanol molecule is an extremely weak acid, but it can enhance corrosion for some natural materials. Anhydrous ethanol in the absence of direct exposure to alkali metals and bases is non-corrosive; it is only when water is mixed with the ethanol that the mixture becomes corrosive to some metals.

Water-contaminated E85, is the result of the combustion process of ethanol, water, and gasoline producing considerable amounts of formic acid.

In addition to the production of formic acid occurring for water-contaminated E85, smaller amounts of acetaldehyde (CH3CHO) and acetic acid (C2H4O2) are also formed for water-contaminated ethanol combustion. Nonetheless, it is the formic acid that is responsible for the majority of the rapid increase in engine wear"

I'm only relaying it the way I understood it, if I'm wrong I'm more than happy to be corrected.

[carlcmc]

so let me try a bit of my rusty organic.

CH4 is a methyl group

CH3CH2OH is an ethyl group with OH group attached. The OH makes it in alcohol

Anyhydrous would be I presume:

CH3CH2O- (the "-"=negative). Thus the proton (H+) has been stripped away making it anhydrous leaving it with a negative charge. This would be my assumption.

When you just have ethanol (CH3CH2OH) any contamination of water (H2O) will form loose hydrogen bonds to the ethanol components, bringing the water into solution (otherwise water and petroleum products do not mix) and helping to disapate it and send it out in combustion.

[Macgyver55]

Ok, I surrender, you've succeeded in dazzling me with your knowledge of chemistry. So,in simple terms are you saying it is or is not corrosive to some metals? Before, after or during combustion?

And, sorry picksbigwagon, we've also strayed way off the original topic of whether or not you can burn E85 in a non-FFV. At this point I'd say a simple no, its not a good idea!

[picksbigwagon]

wow, I haven't sat in a chemistry class since high school. I understand what you're all saying, but I didn't anticipate the responses I got. I guess I should just keep my butt on the couch this weekend and not post random thoughts on Fishing MN during the halftime breaks......

You guys know your stuff.....and I am still waiting for a Hydrogen enigne, that runs on solid fuel.....that would be awesome........

[yaggie]

The difference with a flex fuel engine is the material seals and hoses are made of. I know of several people who have run over 100,000 miles on e-85 in a regular engine. Time will cause the damage rather than the miles run. I would not recommend running e-85 regularly but I have run it in a Miata to clean out injectors. Performance is unchanged but fuel milage is slightly less.

[Havin' Fun]

The burning of hydrogen actually produces pure water. Simple combustion. Combinging oxygen and hydrogen!!

Hydrogen fueled engines are the future....albeit a little expensive at this point.

[picksbigwagon]

Now there we go, how can the tree huggin bunny lovers hate us when we are adding clean pure water to the lake system.......

[upnorth]

They'll find something else to worry/complain about, it is in their nature

[dan2957]

So what happens to our outboards a few years from now when the change is made? Will we be forced to buy new outboards or some kind of conversion kit?

[marine_man]

I don't know for sure... but I'm fairly confident they will be "granfathered" in...

marine_man

[Jeremy airjer W]

Non oxygenated premium is available today for recreational and collector use. There is a strong likelyhood that it will continue to be available for many years.