Could we get some new catfish laws?

[Blue Kayak]

I've never fished for catfish, but it is my top fishing priority in 2006. Hopefully, the bullhead bait length will be increased to 10 inches in 2007. I want to thank those that have been working on this; it should make it easier for a newbie like me to get started. Once this issue is resolved, perhaps we could tackle some others. Here are a few I'd like to see. Do you experts have any ideas for new laws that would help preserve future catfish fishing?

1. Allow the use of dead carp for bait. Perhaps some language like: Carp may be used for cut bait if they are immediately beheaded (and only used in the water from which taken). Carp used as cut bait must be removed, properly disposed of, and not left on the shore or returned to the water.

NOTE: DNR Rule already allows rough fish parts to be used for crayfish traps.

6259.0100 GENERAL RESTRICTIONS ON TAKING CRAYFISH.

D. Rough fish parts may be used within a crayfish trap as bait.

97A.015 Definitions. Subd. 43. Rough fish. "Rough fish" means carp, buffalo, sucker, sheepshead, bowfin, burbot, cisco, gar, goldeye, and bullhead.

This has two advantages to the DNR. It reduces the carp population and helps protect native, non-game species such as suckers, sheepshead, and bullheads.

2. Allow two rods, perhaps with some conditions such as the following:

Two rods are allowed if using barbless hooks (and catch and release only.)

Two rods are allowed if fishing from shore.

Two rods are allowed if one is intended for catching bait fish.

3. Do we need a closed season on catfish? The articles about catching (basically snagging) flatheads in the winter are disturbing.

[hanson]

Blue Kayak-

Thanks for your insight! If I've paid attention in the forums, you fish the Minnesota River I believe. Good luck cattin' this summer. Welcome to the cat forum! Its the dead of winter and we've been having some pretty good cat discussion already. I'm a diehard ice fisherman myself but I'm chomping at the bit to get after some flats once the water starts warming.

We're all hoping that the bullhead law changes. Finding small (legal) bullheads can be a challenge at times. Bullheads are a choice bait for flatheads because they are hearty.

Using multiple rods is another law I'd like to see change. Jug fishing, trotlining, limb lining are all legal in many southern states for cats. Not only can you use multiple lines but you can use unattended lines as well. For now, I would love to see 2 lines legal.

The Mississippi River border water between Wisconsin & Minnesota is very interesting when looking at the differences in regulations between the 2 states. Wisconsin anglers can use 3 lines, Minnesota anglers can use 2 lines. Wisconsin anglers can use live Bluegill for bait where we can't yet it is all the same body of water. "I Da Man" fishes this water alot and may have more insight.

Many of us would also like to see live bluegill as legal bait. I wouldn't mind seeing bluegills under 6" or something like that as being legal. With the amount of cat anglers in this state, no one would notice a decline in the small bluegill population because a few of us are using them for bait.

You mentioned Carp, maybe I'm missing the boat but I've never desired to use cut carp as cat bait. Bullheads, Suckers, and Creekchubs work very well for Flathead bait. I was fishing the Minnesota last summer with "Hoops" and he tossed out a small sheepshead for bait. The sheepie got hit a couple times that night but he didn't catch any fish on it. Guess what I'm saying is there are other baits which are more productive and more readily available in my opinion.

Where was I going with this... I think that if there are any changes in the catfish or bait laws, they are going to be to the advantage of the angler. Better legal baits, bigger legal baits, multiple lines are all going to benefit us, not the fish. Along with laws such as this, I would also like to see laws protecting the catfish as well, whether it is a season on flatheads, slot limits, etc.

There's a few thoughts while I'm waiting to go fishing today.

[Guest]

Carp.. I really dont see the use of using them for bait unless a person could find them in quantity of a very small size.. under 10". Carp for cutbait doesnt work all that well, the guts work better.. but only effective on channel cats, usually of smaller average size. I used them for several years when I was younger here.. until I learned it wasnt legal.

The 2 rod thing I think we are going to hear a lot of this summer. I dont know if it will ever happen. I am for it.. across the board in all Minnesota fishing. Its not going to increase the overall harvest of anythin much, but it should increase the success ratio in some types of fishing, trophy catfish included.

Season on catfish.. I do not agree. Flatheads spawn in the summer time, and they are easier to catch in the pre spawn period than the post spawn period. If they were to close the season at the most productive time, it woud probably cut my yearly catch by more than 50%.. which is a heck of a lot of fish, none of which I harvest.

Cats are best protected with limits and slots. The channels are probably about right in the regulations now. There are a heck of a lot of them, and if people want to eat them, more power to them, they are far from endangered. Flatheads should be down to a limit of 1.

Bait is the biggest issue with me. It seems the bullheads should be changing in the near future. I would like to see the use of sunfish, 6" and less sounds about right.. but thats more complicated than a bullhead because it is a gamefish... I dont know if it will ever happen. I would care less if they still had the same limit on sunfish.. thats how many you would be able to have in possesion for bait.

Suckers get expensive, and they are not always productive in the warmest months(die fast too). Bullheads are not always that easy to get, but they are a choice bait for flatheads. I have yet to catch a flathead on a sheephead, and the parts dont work too well for channels either. Not all baitfish are created equal.

The one thing that would help catfisherman alone is getting it legal to use more than one line. It may not be a bad idea getting a thread going to see the percentage of people who support a 2 line law, and those who oppose and why. With enough support for the idea, there is someone out there that would know how to present it to the DNR properly, and try to get things moving on it for the future. It will never happen unless there is a large group of people in support of it. If there are many people in support of it, the will at least listen.. not neccessarily pass it, but you have to start somewhere. I dont know how or I would.

[Dirk W]

Yup, Minnesota - land of 10,000 laws. If it works it's probably illegal in Minnesota ....Ok, I'm done venting...

The thought of using cut carp for bait probably sends shivers up the DNR's spine and would - in my opinion - get rejected immediately. They are too worried about the spread of these critters and people somehow abusing the law, even though carp are in evey cat water I know of. The DNR would not even consider the possibility of using bluegills, green sunfish, etc. as bait so carp would definately be a no-no. My recommendation would be to move across the river to WI and use anything you want(I think) legally.

[DARK30]

1. I don't think I would ever use cut carp anyway but who knows..never tried it. Small live carp might work for mudeyes..who knows. I HATE CARP! I'll stick with my creek chubs and wild suckers...and I'll be totally honest here, If all I have is an 8" bullhead..oh well. Sunfish would be great to use for bait (maybe say only in rivers) but only because good Flathead bait is hard to come by.

2. Two lines would be a big plus for us rats. I would make it a little more interesting though...At least one line must be used with live or natural bait. Your extra line would be purchased annually along with your regular fishing licence (win win). When using two lines, no fish can be in possession.

3. I'll say it again...We need a Catch and Release only rule for Flathead Catfish in the Minnesota River. The contests that are held could be provided with a permit to transport fish to a weigh in site AT THE RIVER and then be immediately returned to the water. I would even go so far as to not allow flatheads from being entered in any contests (but) that probably wouldn't be very popular when your trying to sell bait, beans, and beer.

The Minnesota River is a great place to grow big Mudeyes! There are plenty of other special regs for special waters and certain fish...Its time to recognize a different fish (and) a different type of angler.

I would also like to some stiffer protection for the larger Channel Cats. I think the Canadians do an excellent job on the lower Red River in Manitoba. They have protected those big piggies and its paying off with the Red becoming one of the most favored channel cat destinations for nearly all serious catmen.

WET NETS!

[Guest]

I dont agree with your 2 line rule there Kevin.. I wouldnt mind having a 2nd line in tow while pulling cranks/etc, especially when I have the boat out alone. It just opens up more options.

And the last thing Minnesota needs is another complicated law, and another fee. The use of 2 rods would be good enough in whatever way we prefer. When it starts having certain exceptions it gets complicated, people try to bend the rules more and more.. and it turns into a headache for enforcement in the end. If a law would become a burdon, it wont happen in the 1st place. A simple law across the board.. 2 lines, 1 hook per line. Simple.

They would still make plenty of money in extra line violations.. those using extras now would be just as inclined to put more lines in than allowed.

If they asked the question when getting our new license.. "Would you be in favor of the use of 2 lines in Minnesota, yes or no" .. what percentage of no's do you think we would get.. 3%?

[DARK30]

It would be fun to see how many people would pay the extra (few) bucks for an additional line. If you don't want it then don't buy it..just trying to keep the meat hunters in check.

Did you say two lines..two hooks? If your trolling two crank baits that's almost 20. That's why I said one must be live or natural bait. I'm not trying to match Lake Michigan. There are special regs for a lot of waters and if you can't keep track of um then don't bump into the warden I guess.

Call it special interest..anybody see the lobby?

[DTro]

While it may complicate things with a special permit, 2nd license, etc. I would be willing to pay extra for the "privilege" of a 2nd line.

Compare it to deer hunting. There are areas where you can buy multiple licenses, bonus permits, etc. Pay to play if you will. It's not taking away from the people who only want one or cannot afford the extras.

If I'm not mistaken, don't you need a trout stamp to fish for trout? Why not a kitty stamp? Money goes towards the management of the cats, and in exchange allows a second line.

It's the American way.

Having said that, lakes all over the state are micro managed, why not the rivers? Allow two lines on the rivers only

[hanson]

Quote:

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Its time to recognize a different fish (and) a different type of angler.

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Dark- I completely agree with you. Nobody in this state even knows what a catfish is, let alone a Flathead Catfish. I know... I was one of them. I've completely changed my opinion on catfish in the short time that some of you may know me.

About the Red River thing, the Red River Hookers are lobbying for special regs on the US side of the river. There was a huge thread last fall about this issue. I haven't heard how things were going.

[DARK30]

Oh, I forgot. Hanson, I doon't think we need trot lines, jugs and unattended stuff like that up here....I mean I love my sister..but not that much

[DTro]

Quote:

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Oh, I forgot. Hanson, I doon't think we need trot lines, jugs and unattended stuff like that up here....I mean I love my sister..but not that much

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qeue banjo music

[hanson]

Where did I write that I thought that was a good idea?

Dark mentioned a different kind of angler.

[I Da Man]

I was talking with Kent Holland last week about the MN/ND Red River rules..he's a charter member of the Red River Hookers.

The rule is dead at this time because the ND DNR feels "everything is just fine". The MN DNR was willing to go along with the new restriction, but ND had to agree.

I'll see if I can find Kent to expand on this.

As far as gills as bait goes in MN...as Dirk stated...not going to happen. When Dirk and I brought it up to the DNR, I believe the quote went very close to this "Once we allow one game fish to be bait, it will open a can of worms and we're not willing to cross that line". Not an exact quote...but pretty darn close.

AZ has a "2 line surcharge". I'm going to be talking with a fella flatheader down there this week. I want to see what his thoughts are on this...tax. Personally, I don't get the tax thing...but money does talk with tightening budgets.

OUR biggest probem is that WE (as catters) are few...and very unorgainized. Example: 21 responses to the DNR about the bullhead length rule...21 from postings on two major websites!!!!

In this case, the responses didn't matter...unless there were 21 that had negative comments...THEN it would have mattered. No one cares about bullheads unless your a flathead guy. (which is very good for us)

The MN DNR didn't see changing the length as a problem...except in how to word the rule...which was/is the biggest hurdle.

Remember the MN DNR's biggest concern is MANAGEING THE RESOURCE....and not what you or I want. That's not a knock...I wouldn't want it anyother way.

So when you start talking two lines on inland waters...well there will have to be a study done on how this will impact the resource. Man, that will be on long row to hoe! It's too bad we can't just say..."we have two lines allowed on the boarder waters already and if you live in WI, they can use 3. Doesn't seem to hurt the resource there!" It just don't work that way.

Personally, I'm with Dark on the MN river catch and release only. I still am on the side of a closed flathead season in the wintering months.

[Blue Kayak]

I Da Man -- Thanks for posting your insights and experiences working with the legislature on increasing the length of bullhead for bait.

I'm ashamed to admit that I was not one of the 21 who contacted the legislature. This forum gives us a great opportunity to support issues that would improve our sport, but we have to make the effort. I'll do better in the future.

I can see the DNR's viewpoint on not using sunfish for bait. Other states allow sunfish, perch, and rock bass so that does open up a can of worms. I also read of someone using a 14" smallmouth with 2" of the tail cut off to catch a catfish.

What I would like to see is an improvement in the flathead angling experience. To me that means catching (and releasing) more and larger fish. However, for others an improved angling experience is catching and keeing more and larger fish. I have to remind myself that their viewpoint is as valid as mine. Personally, I'm catch and release because fish is not my favorite food, and everyone else in my family detests fish.

I agree that one way we could improve the fishery is to raise money. This could be done with fees, such as a flathead or catfish stamp. However, there are so few catfish anglers that it probably would not raise much money. Also, how would you be identified as being a catfish angler? It's not like being on a designated trout stream.

Another possibility would be to set up a system where the DNR could accept donations for a catfish or flathead fund. Sort of like the Non-Game fund, but probably not listed on state tax forms. Donated funds could come from individual anglers, tackle manufacturers, sporting goods stores, boat manufacturers (AlumaCraft is practically on the MN River), and bait shops.

Donated funds could be used for basic research such as determining the best tackle and methods for catch and release, habitat improvement, stocking if necessary, impact of catfish on other fisheries, and catfish movements (similar to the Vokoun paper).

It seems concentrating on the Minnesota River might be effective since there are no border state issues. Could the MN River become a destination location for catfish anglers similar to Lockport?

I also agree that a closed winter season for flatheads makes sense. Especially, if we attempt to improve the fishery so that it draws anglers from other states. There is no sense in allowing anglers to basically snag flatheads when they are dormant and reel them in like a boot.

[Ralph Wiggum]

Maybe a flathead stamp like a trout stamp?

[DARK30]

I just noticed a new law in 2006. People who want to harvest a lake sturgeon need to purchase a $5 tag. I don't think that would work for our situation here but it just shows you what can be done by people who think its important.

I would agree also with closing the Flathead season I guess. The only way to catch them now is by snagging and I don't think that's happening anyway....at least on the Minnesota.None in possession during the winter months would be a start. Think about it though...We do fish Flatheads during their spawn. Does it do any harm? I don't think it does.

[Guest]

I still dont agree with the closed season thing. I could see a closed season in some areas(another special regulation) like pool 4 where the catfish *snagging* is what many would argue to be a problem. That is the only location I know of that people actually get flatheads with regularity during the dead of winter... or can be targeted to *snag* in an angling method that looks legitament(whole different arguement that doesnt pertain to this post).

I do agree with a catch and release only on the Minnesota river, or very tight slots. I dont want to see it go total catch and release because that river is very capable of producing a record. I think a record fish a person should be able to claim if they desired.

Although we all are strong on promoting catch and release on flatheads for trophy value, is it reasonable to demand that nobody can harvest a smaller fish on the Minnesota river for food? There is a good population of flatheads, and I dont think its going to hurt the fishery at all to see a 5-10 pound fish go once in a great while for someone to eat. Maybe a slot limit of all fish between 30" - 54" must be immediately released, with a possesion limit of 1 fish.

I am sure something will happen in the future to protect the flathead fishery in some areas. Catfishing is becoming increasingly popular.. its not just an old guy on the shore with an uglystick drowning chicken liver anymore. I have been seeing the flathead population explode in my area over the last 10 years, and fishermen are slowly catching up. There are lots of quality fish here now, and a ton of little ones here now that makes it obvious that spawning has been very successful in the recent years.. I am looking forward to the fishery in another 10 years. Something should happen to protect these fish before the fishery hits its prime. At the same time, I wonder how the fishery is going to be impacted by the population explosion of these fish.. A lot of big fish eat a lot of food. I can say now, I know stretches of the river no bass is safe(not sure if thats a bad thing )

[I Da Man]

I don't get it. If they seldom bite in winter...and even if it's "just P4" folks that target them, then what's the differance if the whole state was closed?

Take a trip down to Everet's an look at the photos of the outstate guys and their "legal" catch in the fish cleaning house. Once they are in the boat...it's hard to prove if it was snagged or not and snagged fish become legally caught fish. Funny how hard I've tried getting a flathead to bite a 3 inch dardevil in the summer, but by some magic they hit them in the winter. It's amazing :-)

Either way...a 5 month closed season can't hurt them and points in every direction to helping them....with the exception of a very good point that That Guy brought up...what I've never concidered is the other spieces piece.

Catfisherman are going to take a back seat of eye's and smallies...and I doubt this will change in my life time...Example: Once Willow Cat's were found to be illegal for sale in MN...it didn't take long...as the law was changed for the following year. A rule to change bullheads? Two years. (NOT COMPLAINING Mr DNR! Just using it as an example!).

So getting back on track here, IF the eye or bass folk start feeling the flat population is climing to high and are reducing the populations on thier favorite fish...guess what!

It wouldn't surprise me to see much more liberalize limits.

I was reading an artical flats...and the other fish were compatable with flatheads are..."anything too big for them to eat" was the answer.

That wouldn't be good for us guys that love the feel of a big fish!

[Guest]

Quote:

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Either way...a 5 month closed season can't hurt them and points in every direction to helping them....

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If in fact they did make a closed season, what season do you think they are going to close? Its not unheard of to fish for flatheads into October, and they will take a bait at that time. At the same time, they have the feed bag on in the beginning of April.. probably more so than any other time of the year.

October is fair chase, but would April be considering its a prespawn period? If they do have a closed season, when would it be closed? For the spawn which started in June and ended in July?

So, if we close the season starting in November to help protect the fish piling up in pool 4, when do we open the season back up? Should the fish be protected through the prespawn and spawn period? Its a really good question. What seems to be best for the fish is to close it in November and open it back up in August?

I dont know about anyone else.. but that wouldnt sit very good on my fishing calendar.

I think its something better taken care of by special regulations, maybe a catch and release only season vs a closed season might be best. It Ill's me to know people are snagging fish and harvesting them. This is obviously an issue because it has come up before.

In the end, I care the most about the fishery, at the same time, I dont want regulations similar to sturgeon fishing either where you can only target them for a short period of time. Even if the season were open 7 months, how many of them months would be productive months for fishing after the spawn is done?

I guess I dont know the legal answer in the end. I do know the solution to the problem however it will never be in the regulations... use common sense, if something isnt right, legally, or moraly, dont do it.

If you know people are on the river snagging fish, take a trip there once in a while and do some fishing with a pair of binoculars. The TIP line is there for a reason if you want to try to do something about it. Tickets are sometimes the most understandable form of education to those who can care less about the laws. I have had wardens look over my fish real close on the north shore for any sign a fish may have been snagged.. I am sure they will do it on pool 4 also if they keep getting complaints.

I think we all need to get out and catch some fish. This wintertime stuff leaves too much extra time on our hands! I think we need to be careful what we wish for.. wishes sometimes come true. At that time, we will learn if we really knew what we wanted in the 1st place. There is a difference between wants and needs.

[Dirk W]

The problems with the snaggers is that they claim they are not snagging and can entice them to bite a properly placed lure, thus, what they are doing is not illegal, even with a daredevil.

Flatheads enter their winter holes for good by about mid November from what I can tell and are probably there until maybe the end of March or so, so I would favor a closed season December-March.

Closing the season during the spawn doesn't make sense. It would have to be closed July and August If you want to be safe and get the entire spawn every year.

[Blue Kayak]

A closed season that Dirk W proposes from December through March would protect flatheads from snagging. Another point about a closed season is that it gives flatheads increased status as a gamefish. With a continuous season they are more like panfish. With a closed season they are more like trout, bass, pike and walleye.

I Da Man is right about the danger of flatheads becoming so prolific that walleye (and other) anglers take action. This apparently happened recently with smallmouth bass on Green Lake. The WILLMAR SPICER forum has a thread titled Green Lake Regs describing how the lake is going back to general regulations in 2006 for bass in order to increase the walleye population.

[DTro]

I see no problem with the closed season. It's no different then targeting the huge pike in the shallows early spring when they are the most vulnerable.

[river rat316]

Walleye guys get everything they want, the change in n regs on Green is very dissapointing, espicially since walleye guys have vowed to keep all the smallies they can now to get rid of em, what really sucks about that (and it would happen for flats also) is everytime a crappy walleye guy cant find fish he blames it on some other species (flathead, muskie, smallie) Maybe if they would practice a little cpr like the rest of us fisherman they wouldnt have such a problem

[Dennis Steele]

A state wide closed season to protect these fish from being snagged is a good idea, in my opinion. I doubt there are many doing it on my waters, but I do beleive there is trouble on other waters.

2 lines? You bet I'd jump on that wagon, however I don't know how many folks think like we do. I remember not too long ago, we had a thread asking opinions of the 2 line law. I was bery surprised to see that many did not want it.

I beleive the only way were going to see 2 lines if the MN's tourism drops dramatically and statew where multiple lines are OK increase. Its all about the $$.

As far as the MN River as a catch and release only water for flatheads....

I don't know if I agree.

For one I don't see or hear of that many folks keeping flatheads. (at least in my stretch)

I have also seen a large increase in the numbers of flatheads, but a decrease in the size. In addition, I believe that the channel cat population has decreased.

I am not a biologist, but my thoughts are that these increases in size or species is cyclic, and the pressure from harvest is so minimal that it will have little effect natures own "fisheries management".

Studies have show that with fewer fish in a system they tend to grow larger. Our regulation of 1 over 24 currently supports that type of management.

In my opinion and it is opinion, is what the MN needs is a reduction in the numbers of flatheads to increase the size once again. But as I think its cyclic, it won't be long again before this happens.

I'd rather not catch a flat every time out to get into a big one.

[I Da Man]

Thanks Dennis! Just taught me a new word!

Cyclic. I think that's two now! :-)